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Old 04-05-2014, 10:54 PM   #1
Tippey764
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Running too lean, now too rich

Alright i'm getting confused with this car already.

I was getting a p0171 and p0174 for a few weeks. I was slowly replacing everything trying to find the leak

Intake boots
Disa valve
CCV with all related hoses
vacuum lines

Finally today i replaced the CCV

Now i went from getting lean codes to getting P0188 and P0189 for running rich

What happened? Can i ever win with this thing?

Its a 2002 325xi with a m54b30 swap. A lot of maintenance has been done with the swap but i just can't figure this problem out.
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Old 04-06-2014, 08:29 AM   #2
lszlszx
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Does your scan tool read freeze frame/live data?
Post freeze frame info.
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Old 04-06-2014, 10:46 AM   #3
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I'm using PAsoft1.4
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Old 04-06-2014, 10:59 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippey764 View Post
Alright i'm getting confused with this car already.

I was getting a p0171 and p0174 for a few weeks. I was slowly replacing everything trying to find the leak

Intake boots
Disa valve
CCV with all related hoses
vacuum lines

Finally today i replaced the CCV

Now i went from getting lean codes to getting P0188 and P0189 for running rich

What happened? Can i ever win with this thing?

Its a 2002 325xi with a m54b30 swap. A lot of maintenance has been done with the swap but i just can't figure this problem out.
Are we talking about P0188 and P0189 or P1088 and P1089?

Bentley does a VERY poor job with both of these codes.

What tool did you use to pull these codes and what was the EXACT code? Did you translate the code from a Hex or Decimal code?

Either way, doubt you have a rich problem.

Likely a lazy O2 sensor and/or a lean condition.

As mentioned, need fuel trims.

Also best to flag bad O2 sensor is with a smart phone App and an OBDII interface.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=967204
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Old 04-06-2014, 11:01 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Tippey764 View Post
I'm using PAsoft1.4
Ditch PASoft for OBDII, useless as it usually gives no Live/Real Time or Freeze Frame data for most DME's.

Is the SES/CEL/MIL light on?

Get yourself a decent quality generic OBDII tool or a smart phone App and interface as I mentioned.
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Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temps, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose fan switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 04-08-2014, 10:49 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lszlszx View Post
Does your scan tool read freeze frame/live data?
Post freeze frame info.
Alright so I got a real scanner that can do freeze frames and here's what I got

Pasoft was giving me a hex code that I thought was a rich code but this scanner is giving me the lean code. Whatever I'm stumped.

Code: p0171
Engine rom: 2976
Calculated engine load: 23.1%
St fuel trim 1: 15.6
Lt fuel trim 1: 11.7
St fuel trim 2: 14.8
Lt fuel trim 2: 11.7
Vehicle speed 84 km/h
Fuel system 1 closed
Fuel system 2 closed

My long term fuel trims are always at 11.x even when the car is off

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfoj View Post
Are we talking about P0188 and P0189 or P1088 and P1089?

Bentley does a VERY poor job with both of these codes.

What tool did you use to pull these codes and what was the EXACT code? Did you translate the code from a Hex or Decimal code?

Either way, doubt you have a rich problem.

Likely a lazy O2 sensor and/or a lean condition.

As mentioned, need fuel trims.

Also best to flag bad O2 sensor is with a smart phone App and an OBDII interface.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=967204
Yep you were right I must have translated the code incorrectly. The real codes are p0171 and p0174

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfoj View Post
Ditch PASoft for OBDII, useless as it usually gives no Live/Real Time or Freeze Frame data for most DME's.

Is the SES/CEL/MIL light on?

Get yourself a decent quality generic OBDII tool or a smart phone App and interface as I mentioned.
Yes the check engine light is on

It's also consuming a bit of oil and the throttle has a horrible lag in it. It holds the throttle for about 1-2 seconds after you lift off. No this isn't the normal complaint, you literally feel the car still accelerating after you lift off.
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Old 04-08-2014, 10:53 AM   #7
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It could be a valve cover gasket leak, intake manifold gasket, or even bad o2 sensors. More than likely valve cover gasket due to the oil consumption


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Old 04-08-2014, 11:18 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippey764 View Post
Alright so I got a real scanner that can do freeze frames and here's what I got

Pasoft was giving me a hex code that I thought was a rich code but this scanner is giving me the lean code. Whatever I'm stumped.

Code: p0171
Engine rom: 2976
Calculated engine load: 23.1%
St fuel trim 1: 15.6
Lt fuel trim 1: 11.7
St fuel trim 2: 14.8
Lt fuel trim 2: 11.7
Vehicle speed 84 km/h
Fuel system 1 closed
Fuel system 2 closed

My long term fuel trims are always at 11.x even when the car is off

Yep you were right I must have translated the code incorrectly. The real codes are p0171 and p0174
Ok, now we have real data.

So 52 MPH and almost 3k RPM and you are running lean.

This is NOT a basic crankcase or intake air leak.

This is NOT likely due to bad O2 sensors.

This problem is somewhat loaded due to the fact this was an engine swap and there is not enough detailed info on what went down, what parts were swapped, what DME is in the car and when these problems surfaced.

If this was an unmolested car, I would likely say cheap/counterfeit/clone MAF, but we have all sorts of options to include O2 sensor wiring swapped, wrong O2 sensors, wrong DME, wrong MAF, and possibly hacked wiring. Could even be a basic fuel delivery problem as well.

So not sure this problem can be sniped, but a shotgun may be a more suitable tool at this point.
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Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temps, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose fan switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299

Last edited by jfoj; 04-08-2014 at 11:18 AM.
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Old 04-08-2014, 11:51 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfoj View Post
Ok, now we have real data.

So 52 MPH and almost 3k RPM and you are running lean.

This is NOT a basic crankcase or intake air leak.

This is NOT likely due to bad O2 sensors.

This problem is somewhat loaded due to the fact this was an engine swap and there is not enough detailed info on what went down, what parts were swapped, what DME is in the car and when these problems surfaced.

If this was an unmolested car, I would likely say cheap/counterfeit/clone MAF, but we have all sorts of options to include O2 sensor wiring swapped, wrong O2 sensors, wrong DME, wrong MAF, and possibly hacked wiring. Could even be a basic fuel delivery problem as well.

So not sure this problem can be sniped, but a shotgun may be a more suitable tool at this point.
I did the engine swap so I can shed some light on what parts were used

-The wiring harness is the original 325 engine harness no wiring was hacked either
-The DME is the 325 DME. I took the car after I had the swap done to have it flashed with 330i software
-The o2 sensors were reused from the 325 engine. According to realoem they are the same part as the 330. The old engine had low compression and was sending unburnt fuel out of cylinder 6 into the exhaust. The old engine was not giving me codes for the o2 sensors though
-The MAF was purchased used from a guy who pulled it from a tracked e46 he told me he was having problems with his car and swapped in a new MAF to see if it was causing his problem. He said the new MAF didn't help and it was something else so the MAF was good
- I am running the full 330i intake


How could I test a MAF? Would the data revolving around how much air it's recording be important?

Last edited by Tippey764; 04-08-2014 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 04-08-2014, 11:54 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msane3 View Post
It could be a valve cover gasket leak, intake manifold gasket, or even bad o2 sensors. More than likely valve cover gasket due to the oil consumption


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I can't imagine a quart of oil every 1000-1500 miles is leaking out of the valve cover gasket


Also to go over maintenance items replaced with the swap

Oil pan gasket
Oil filter housing gasket
Vanos line to oil filter housing
Thermostat
Water pump
Coolant over flow tank and bracket
Vacuum line to egr replaced
Rubber intake boots replaced
All exhaust gaskets including manifold gasket replaced
Ccv system and all associated hoses

The only thing I haven't replaced is the spark plugs actually. I have a photo of their condition I could post if that's relevant to anything
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Old 04-08-2014, 12:23 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippey764 View Post
I did the engine swap so I can shed some light on what parts were used

-The wiring harness is the original 325 engine harness no wiring was hacked either
-The DME is the 325 DME. I took the car after I had the swap done to have it flashed with 330i software
-The o2 sensors were reused from the 325 engine. According to realoem they are the same part as the 330. The old engine had low compression and was sending unburnt fuel out of cylinder 6 into the exhaust. The old engine was not giving me codes for the o2 sensors though
-The MAF was purchased used from a guy who pulled it from a tracked e46 he told me he was having problems with his car and swapped in a new MAF to see if it was causing his problem. He said the new MAF didn't help and it was something else so the MAF was good
- I am running the full 330i intake


How could I test a MAF? Would the data revolving around how much air it's recording be important?
You could test the engine load using the scan tool. If the engine load ever goes above 100% when goosing it in 3rd gear, this is a key indicator that something is wrong.

Also it is likely the MAF is a cheap Asian knock off/counterfeit as a real 330 MAF is over $275. Someone is not likely going to give you a real 330 MAF.

The other thing I would suggest, unplug an O2 sensor and see if it corresponds to the proper bank. See this all the time, people swap the wiring for the O2 sensor it drives the DME nuts.
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temps, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose fan switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 04-08-2014, 12:29 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfoj View Post
You could test the engine load using the scan tool. If the engine load ever goes above 100% when goosing it in 3rd gear, this is a key indicator that something is wrong.

Also it is likely the MAF is a cheap Asian knock off/counterfeit as a real 330 MAF is over $275. Someone is not likely going to give you a real 330 MAF.

The other thing I would suggest, unplug an O2 sensor and see if it corresponds to the proper bank. See this all the time, people swap the wiring for the O2 sensor it drives the DME nuts.
I'll check the MAF but I'm pretty positive it's a genuine bmw part

I'll double check the o2 sensor wires as well. I did number them as I took them apart but I could have made a mistake. The marker didn't write every well and I might have mixed it up. Would after cat o2 sensors matter or only the pre cat ones?
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Old 04-08-2014, 12:53 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippey764 View Post
I'll check the MAF but I'm pretty positive it's a genuine bmw part

I'll double check the o2 sensor wires as well. I did number them as I took them apart but I could have made a mistake. The marker didn't write every well and I might have mixed it up. Would after cat o2 sensors matter or only the pre cat ones?
Both sets of sensors pre and post cat should be verified.

Pretty easy to do if you have an OBDII tool that will display Live/Real Time data.
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temps, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose fan switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 04-08-2014, 12:54 PM   #14
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For the record bank 1 is the front of the engine right? Silly question but I want to be sure.
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Old 04-08-2014, 01:03 PM   #15
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Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temps, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose fan switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 04-08-2014, 07:37 PM   #16
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[QUOTE=Tippey764;16094312]I can't imagine a quart of oil every 1000-1500 miles is leaking out of the valve cover gasket

That's correct, it takes a huge leak to lose that much oil.

As far as the codes are concerned, I would look at how STFT are at idle and under load at higher rpm, that could be another clue.
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Old 04-09-2014, 07:26 PM   #17
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Couple things tested today

I did a smoke test using both the ccv where it enters the valve cover and at the intake air temperature sensor location and didn't have any leaks at all. Everything seems tight

I did a fuel pressure test and got 45psi when I cycled the key on and a running PSI of 55. I did do a fuel pressure bleed down test and I did lose my pressure over 45 minutes. I'm not sure if that's normal or not though.
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Old 04-09-2014, 07:54 PM   #18
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Oh yeah my MAF is a genuine Siemens MAF. So I just tried unplugging it and driving it around and my hanging throttle seems to go mostly away. It doesn't go entirely away though.
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Old 04-09-2014, 10:02 PM   #19
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Alright some more info

I swapped the MAF with a known good MAF. I'm still getting 11.7 long term fuel trims for both banks

Under idle the short term fuels trims drop to between -10 and -15
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Old 04-10-2014, 05:29 AM   #20
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I cleared the codes when I swapped the new maf in. I watched it start at 0 and climb to 11.7 as I drove home
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