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Old 05-20-2014, 04:41 PM   #1
Alun1976
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ESS TS2 problems

Was hoping to get some people's experiences of the TS2 kit. I've basically had a small issue ever since the kit was installed. I've changed just about everything now and was wondering if anyone else has had similar problems.

I've replaced the following.

Vanos seals
Fuel pump
Fuel filter
Maf sensor
Camshaft sensors
Plugs
Ignition coils
ICV

At present I have disconnected my new exhaust camshaft sensor and the car runs sweet. When I connect this sensor the car lacks power and torque throughout the Rev range and surges at a certain engine load.

Has anybody done any data logging on there TS2 setup? I'm interested in timing advance during some WOT pulls in 2nd 3rd and 4th? The reason I ask is because with the exhaust camshaft sensor disconnected the timing advance is about 18-19 degrees during WOT, but with the sensor connected, the timing advance increases for 2 degrees to 10 degrees throughout the Rev range. This results in quite a noticeable power drop. Anybody know what might be happening here? I realise that with the sensor disconnected the DME will be using default values, but why is the timing advance reduced when connected?

Here is a graph of timing advance against time during 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear WOT pulls. This is with the exhaust camshaft sensor disconnected.






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Old 05-21-2014, 12:01 AM   #2
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A bit irrelevant with what you ask (logging data) but did you check and verify that the heat exchanger pump is working properly and circulating coolant in the laminova cores?
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Old 05-21-2014, 01:33 AM   #3
Alun1976
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Yes, checked that. Centre of rad is warm after some spirited driving and coolant level at top of hose.

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Old 05-21-2014, 05:09 AM   #4
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Have you checked the vanos solenoids, intake air temperature sensor, does your outside temperature gauge work?

Only suggesting these because it sounds like the only things you haven't changed.
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Old 05-21-2014, 08:13 AM   #5
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How do you check vanos solenoids? I actually have another vanos unit with the solenoids so will swap them over and report back.

IAT sensor is built into MAF sensor since I have MS45 ECU. MAF sensor has been replaced.

The outside temp sensor is not working as it got torn out along with half of my front bumper when when I sadly hit a dog over a blind hill on a dual carriageway that was running up the fast lane directly towards me with all traffic on the inside lane so nowhere to swerve. An unavoidable accident, no owner anywhere to be seen.

Im pretty sure thought that the outside temp sensor doesn't play any involvement in engine management?

Thanks for your suggestions. Will report back when I've changed the solenoids.

Any more suggestions everyone?

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Old 05-21-2014, 09:48 AM   #6
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Ok, I've swapped the vanos solenoids and reconnected the exhaust camshaft sensor and there's no improvement. Lacking power, jerky acceleration around 3k rpm and reduced torque throughout. These are the same symptoms as vanos symptoms but I've replaced the seals with upgraded seals so the vanos should be ok. I know it relies on oil pressure but really don't believe that to be the issue, at least I hope not.

Has anyone ever tried disconnecting their exhaust camshaft sensor to see if any change in performance. I'm starting to think that the default values the ECU uses for timing advance are more extreme than the case when the exhaust camshaft sensor is connected?

Anyone have any timing advance data? Also, can someone answer for me, does the vanos solenoids still actuate when the exhaust camshaft sensor is disconnected? And how are the solenoids controlled, just one of the camshaft sensors or both?

I've disconnected the sensor again for now and the car pulls strong and evenly. I do however want to get to the bottom of this problem as I prefer everything as it should be.

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Old 05-21-2014, 10:13 AM   #7
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Have you done a read of fault codes? At the very least, you should have a fault with that sensor disconnected.
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Old 05-21-2014, 10:49 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Alun1976 View Post
IAT sensor is built into MAF sensor since I have MS45 ECU. MAF sensor has been replaced.
And since the MAF sensor is pre-SC and intercooler cores, it's only measuring the incoming / ambient air, not the pressurized/heated air reaching the cylinders.

Thus,

cool IAT temps /= working intercooler system
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Old 05-21-2014, 01:10 PM   #9
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And since the MAF sensor is pre-SC and intercooler cores, it's only measuring the incoming / ambient air, not the pressurized/heated air reaching the cylinders.

Thus,

cool IAT temps /= working intercooler system
NickG, you would maybe able to shed more light on this, but I have read a post where Asbjorn mentions that the TS kits drop 20hp or so when the outside temp is +30 degrees Celsius. Could this be as simple as the ambient temp gauge being missing?

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Old 05-21-2014, 02:40 PM   #10
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NickG, you would maybe able to shed more light on this, but I have read a post where Asbjorn mentions that the TS kits drop 20hp or so when the outside temp is +30 degrees Celsius. Could this be as simple as the ambient temp gauge being missing?

Dave
The way I'm reading your post implies that all TS kits have the ambient temp gauge missing, which I'm sure isn't the case. So why would you be assuming that a missing ambient temp gauge has anything to do with power loss above a certain temperature?

ALL engines lose power as intake air temps increase.
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Old 05-21-2014, 03:07 PM   #11
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I'm not saying they are missing on the Ts, and I realise all engines lose power with greater heat.

I had read a post written on here by Asbjorn saying they have a safety feature where power is pulled over 30 degree Celsius via programming.

I have no idea if they do this via intake temp reading, or if they use the ambient temp gauge reading. His ambient air sensor is missing, whether it is related is a stab in the dark by myself.

I have no experience at all inside the programming of these cars.
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Old 05-21-2014, 03:46 PM   #12
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I'm not sure on that one but isn't it a different control module for the ambient air temp? Not sure if the MS45 communicates with other control modules?

Anyway, I've just plugged in INPA and it did quite rightly throw a camshaft sensor fault whilst it was disconnected. So I reconnected, cleared errors, and went for a short drive. It was clearly holding back like usual with the exhaust camshaft sensor connected. But to my surprise I read the error codes again after my short drive and it has thrown a faulty knock sensor code P1328. Another thing to replace now. Thankfully I have a spare so will give it a try tomorrow and feed back.



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Old 05-21-2014, 11:11 PM   #13
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amen


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Old 05-22-2014, 04:19 AM   #14
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Ok, just swapped the knock sensors and what a pain in the arse that was. I've got more than knuckle rash, my whole frigging arms are bruised. Anyway , enough rant, power is now smooth, even and it pulls strongly. It is however wet at the moment so can't really do any WOT timing advance logs. Will have to wait until it's dry and give it a good thrashing and report back.

It's looking good though.

Thanks guys.

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Old 05-22-2014, 07:51 AM   #15
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amen!!!!! nice bro!! now enjoy the torque....


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Old 05-22-2014, 10:17 AM   #16
Alun1976
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Ok it's still not right. The timing isn't steady like it should be and the power isn't uniform like it should be.

Here are some timing advance logs for 2nd 3rd and 4th gears in succession.







The car pulled sweet in 2nd gear right through the Rev range but 3rd and 4th was a different story. The power and torque was there but it wasn't smooth power delivery because timing is bouncing around. I've changed everything I can, haven't got the foggiest why this is still happening?

What I would like to determine is if it's the knock sensors pulling timing or is there an intermitent fault in sensing timing position. Anyone know how I might be able to find this out? The only sensor not replaced is the crankshaft sensor but I doubt it is likely to be this.

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Old 05-22-2014, 11:17 AM   #17
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Quote:
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The only sensor not replaced is the crankshaft sensor but I doubt it is likely to be this.
That would have been the first sensor I would have replaced...

Just out of curiosity, why did you replace the ICV?
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Old 05-22-2014, 12:02 PM   #18
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That would have been the first sensor I would have replaced...

Just out of curiosity, why did you replace the ICV?
But I thought if the crankshaft sensor starts to fail then the car won't even start.

In relation to the ICV, it was a different problem, but I had cleaned it on a few occasions due to an erratic idle and stalling which temporarily fixed the problem but it kept coming back so decided to replace and I've never had any idling issues since. Just thought I'd add it in the list of things I've replaced to help convey the message that I've replaced not only the obvious.

So you reckon I should replace the crank sensor? Has nobody got any timing advance logs to compare? There is another member on here who says that he also notices uneven power delivery but not quite as extreme as I do. I'm thinking that the car may be compensating and that the timing pulls may be normal. I'm quite pedantic when it comes to engine performance and it only has to be a very minute difference in engine tone/torque/power and I start thinking that something is not right. It may actually be all normal but I wouldn't know as I have nothing to compare it against.

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Old 05-22-2014, 01:25 PM   #19
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But I thought if the crankshaft sensor starts to fail then the car won't even start.

In relation to the ICV, it was a different problem, but I had cleaned it on a few occasions due to an erratic idle and stalling which temporarily fixed the problem but it kept coming back so decided to replace and I've never had any idling issues since. Just thought I'd add it in the list of things I've replaced to help convey the message that I've replaced not only the obvious.

So you reckon I should replace the crank sensor? Has nobody got any timing advance logs to compare? There is another member on here who says that he also notices uneven power delivery but not quite as extreme as I do. I'm thinking that the car may be compensating and that the timing pulls may be normal. I'm quite pedantic when it comes to engine performance and it only has to be a very minute difference in engine tone/torque/power and I start thinking that something is not right. It may actually be all normal but I wouldn't know as I have nothing to compare it against.

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No...the engine will start, it just pulls its timing signal from a camshaft sensor. (And usually throws a fault code)

10 degrees of ignition swing isn't normal....it's pulling timing for a reason.

I've run into some issues on a race car where loose objects were hitting the block around the knock sensors, and triggered ignition retard.

Another issue I had, was running solid (Billet) engine mounts. Same issue as above. Went back to poly mounts and the ignition retard disappeared.

The timing curve is affected by the coolant temp. I would log both ignition and coolant traces at the same time if that's possible....would be worth looking into if there was some kind of correlation.
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Old 05-22-2014, 05:41 PM   #20
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No...the engine will start, it just pulls its timing signal from a camshaft sensor. (And usually throws a fault code)

10 degrees of ignition swing isn't normal....it's pulling timing for a reason.

I've run into some issues on a race car where loose objects were hitting the block around the knock sensors, and triggered ignition retard.

Another issue I had, was running solid (Billet) engine mounts. Same issue as above. Went back to poly mounts and the ignition retard disappeared.

The timing curve is affected by the coolant temp. I would log both ignition and coolant traces at the same time if that's possible....would be worth looking into if there was some kind of correlation.
Thanks for the input. I can log timing advance against coolant temp only in the form of a scatter plot but I imagine that the data would be very difficult to interpret. I've just done a couple more runs and logged coolant temp vs engine speed to see the range of temps after a good 0-130mph burst and it ranges from 72 to 79 degrees. I tried the scatter plot as well but I couldn't interpret the data. I don't know whether this may be relevant but I have settings in torque pro to log data "when sensor refresh" and I noticed that data was being logged at equal intervals but it would occasionally miss a data log point, thus the next data point recorded was twice the time interval of normal.

It's funny you should mention ECT sensor because my needle never stays static in the middle. It never really goes above the middle but always drops down to the bar below the middle and fluctuates between these two points. It never use to do this but the timing problem was there before this started anyway. I may try replacing this sensor soon. I also feel that the timing pulls become more frequent when the engine gets hotter so it may well be related.

I'm using the original oem engine mounts, going TS3 in the near future and will probably upgrade to vibra technics mounts then. Hopefully they won't give any issues.

There are a few things close to the engine block and knock sensors, I will try and secure things better using some cable ties and report back. Is there any way of eliminating the knock sensors all together just temporarily to see if it is indeed them pulling the timing? I've used the knock detect plug-in in torque pro and that isn't detecting any knock, does that not rule out the knock sensors then?

Another thought I've just had is that it always seems to happen after a gear change. It doesn't really seem to occur during the first gear I go WOT but as soon as I change up a gear it starts. I suppose this could be related to engine mounts in a way as the sudden change in torque will cause sudden movement on the mounts and may create a knocking sound, but I've never actually heard anything like this on gear changes.

This thing has taken over my life! I'm going to end up crazy if I don't cure the problem soon.

Appreciate your help though guys.

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