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Gun Talk
Are you a gun fanatic as well? If so, you'll want to talk to other owners about what you own in this forum.

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Old 05-08-2014, 12:49 PM   #1
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If you could pick any AR you wanted...

to be given to you for free, from any semiauto 16" barrel versions, what would you pick and why?
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Old 05-08-2014, 01:07 PM   #2
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Larue or Knights. Because 1) I've never seen a Larue for sale in person and 2) I'd never spend the money myself on the knights.

And given the trouble I've had recently with Noveske and their CS, I wouldn't consider another of their products I don't think.
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Old 05-08-2014, 02:06 PM   #3
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Tracking Point, because it seems fun, and it's way more than I'd spend on a rifle on my own.
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Old 05-08-2014, 05:25 PM   #4
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I was considering selling both of my Colt ARs. (Le6920 and HBAR Elite CAR-A3 24" SS barrel) I don't often shoot the long AR and though to sell it and replace it. Then i though why not sell both of them take the money (possible an additional grand) and put it into something that i can put a few thousand rounds per year though and have forever. Was initially thinking a HK416, but after a little research and talking with the LGS, maybe that isn't the way to go. Seems like HK makes models to be almost mission specific if what the LGS has told me.

So i'm looking for ideas of what you guys might purchase or build. My problem with building is doing the specific research on what parts i might want to use and then the research on what parts work best together, if that is even a concern. I figured that i'd be buying higher quality parts for a build which made me think that i should just buy a factory built gun. I was leaning towards a piston gun. The LGS was suggesting a WilsonCombat due to the fact that one guy built it. However, from my experience with a custom 1911, i feel that any 1911 part may not work in a custom gun built by one guy and didn't know if WC has this same approach with their ARs.
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Old 05-08-2014, 05:50 PM   #5
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You could go with one of the EAG carbines


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Old 05-08-2014, 10:54 PM   #6
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OP- If you really want to sell your rifles, only sell the HBAR. Keep the LE6920 and get a different upper for it. Save some money and get a different upper. That, or just customize the LE6920 upper with a rail and different muzzle device. These guns are Legos for adults. AR15 pattern rifles are all designed to have interchangeable parts. There is no need to buy a wholly new complete rifle unless you just really want a wholly new complete rifle. Don't worry about having things that match unless you absolutely really want it. Just get quality components and slap them together.
In reference to Wilson Combat, they make a quality rifle. They also make very accurate barrels. However, they are a niche market and their rifles are all high-accuracy precision rifles. For what you pay, you are getting an outstanding rifle. Having just one person put them together is nice, but it doesn't really add anything to the quality with an AR like it does with say, a bolt rifle.

If you are looking for something, what do you want out of the rifle? What do you want to do?


In RE the HK rifle development, they're not mission-specific per se. The development of the HK416 happened as a direct result of reliability issues with the Mk18 carbine. The Mk18 and Mk18 Mod1 are direct impingement and because of their 10.3" barrel length, they have a gas timing issue with a short dwell times. This causes them to be prone to cycling issues and overall reliability. They have a lot of gas pressure, and when they are suppressed, they have quite a bit more. This caused the bolt to run even faster, further reducing reliability and durability. The rifle itself got beat up pretty quickly, so Crane/NSWC developed a hard overhaul protocol at 7500rds. The HK416 was originally developed with a 10.39" barrel to replace the Mk18. It was developed with an auto-regulating gas piston system, which solved the timing issue. It was designed for urban combat and DA missions, but is a rifle capable of use up to 300m effectively. They later developed longer barrel models. The model you would get as a civilian would be the MR556A1, which is similar to the HK416, but not entirely the same.

FWIW, HK makes various rifles that all serve a pretty diverse role. They don't do mission-specific, unless you consider the entire realm of designated marksman or CQB to a specific mission. I guess it all depends on how you define it all. Frankly, HK has developed a lot of rifles that fill a lot of gaps. The HK417 fills the role that was left absent when they discontinued the HK91/G3 battle rifle. Afghanistan proved that a 7.62 caliber battle rifle/designated marksman rifle was very necessary due to long engagement distances and the need for having a round that can put down the enemy with one shot.
The UMP was developed as a replacement for the aging MP5 for CQB and PSD use. The list goes on. The only "mission specific" HK weapon I could think of would be the MP7A1, but that's a very niche weapon that can do both CQB and PSD. It was designed for suppressed close quarters engagement with the ability to penetrate soft armor.

Personally, I would avoid HK. Having dealt with them, I'm among a massive list of people who are very unhappy with HK support. Our SWAT team uses HK long guns exclusively (except for the sniper rifles). We use the MP5-40, UMP40, G36C and HK416. All are damn good weapons and they're very reliable. The problem is that when something goes down, it's down for several months. Getting replacement parts or service from HK takes an incredibly long time for us in Law Enforcement, so you can imagine how difficult it would be for someone like you or another commercial buyer if you have a problem. In contrast, companies like FN, KAC, LMT and Colt will bend over backwards for their customers. Companies like those are known to send LE agencies loaner replacement weapons for use if the repair is slated to take a while. HK doesn't do that.

If you're interested in a high-end piston AR, look into LWRC. They make a great product.
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Old 05-08-2014, 10:55 PM   #7
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pics for those who haven't the slighest clue about guns
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Old 05-08-2014, 11:04 PM   #8
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Wilson Combat Paul Howe Tactical Carbine







BCM EAG Tactical Carbine

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Old 05-09-2014, 12:43 AM   #9
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@NOVAbimmer - EAG looks like a sweet option. Seem to be sold out though.


@Redo302 - Thanks for the detailed response. I actually came to that conclusion, probably at the same time you were writing your informative response. I suppose i want a few things out of this new rifle. I want dependability, longevity, durability and the ability to run suppressed without issue. I plan on taking up some practical and tactical training with a carbine. Call me crazy but i feel that it's not out of the realm of possibility that in my life time, we will see some civil unrest in this country. I want to be prepared for that possibility and have a rifle that will stand the test without fail. While some of these requirements point to a piston gun, i feel that to run the long haul through some type of US soil conflict or social collapse, i should start using some AK-47 logic.

As you stated these awesome, well engineered, well made, proprietary parts in the HK may be very reliable, but aren't 100% reliable. I don't think anything is. So when something does fail, and i'm sure it will, it'll be advantageous to have a rifle which has millions upon millions of interchangeable parts lying around with easy access. Forget about a silly doomsday scenario; like you said, even in a perfect world an HK will be down for a while due to their less than wanting attitude to deal with anyone outside of the government.

Also came to the conclusion that my Le6920 fits much of the role i'm looking for. Especially with an extra upper or two in the safe. Even selling the long colt, i'd still have two functioning ARs. So i think you're right about selling the HBAR since i just don't shoot it.

So... to fill the other desire i have, for something new..... I own a SCAR 16 already and since i've always been intrigued by bull pups and a fan of Israeli weapons, i think i'm going to give the Tavor a whirl. Especially since there are now some trigger options available for it.

It's nice that by asking a few questions and doing some reading and thinking that one can save themselves from a $3500 mistake. Not that having a civi version of a HK416 would be bad, just realized to be unnecessary.

Have any experience with the Tavor? Anyone run them in your classes?

For JJR....

LE6920 i'm going to be keeping.


SCAR 16, also keeping.


Colt HBAR going to sell.


Tavor likely going to purchase.
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Old 05-09-2014, 02:49 AM   #10
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FWIW, I was at an LE Rifle Instructor course this week and I was ringing 3/4-size IPSC steel at 220yds with a Daniel Defense 16" lightweight profile barrel and Aimpoint T1 4moa w/ 3x magnifier, using Federal XM193 55gr FMJ. These rifles are very reliable and very accurate. Short of really long range work, you can get great real world 300yd performance out of any carbine.
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Old 05-13-2014, 04:21 PM   #11
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^^ No arguments here.

Anyone have experience with the Tavor? Seems lots of people in AR forums poo-poo them, mainly for ergonomics. Which doesn't make much sense to me. When handling in the LGS it feels very well balanced with the majority of the rifles weight sitting 8" in front of your shoulder. I guess they are talking about magazine manipulation when they are saying ergonomics.

Clearly it's not a replacement rifle for an AR and even less of a replacement for an AR in terms of a SHTF event. But as a rifle or even a SBR replacement, it seems to fit the bill pretty well. Piston designed from the ground up, well balanced, replaceable triggers now, and i even hear that they are shifting the mag release to the standard AR location with some additional linkage in the next version. However, i don't have issue with a different type of mag release personally.

I'm thinking about trying one out but would like to get some first hand opinions first.
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Old 05-13-2014, 11:01 PM   #12
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This... even sexier in person

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Old 05-13-2014, 11:14 PM   #13
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Tracking Point, because it seems fun, and it's way more than I'd spend on a rifle on my own.
Speaking of we just sold a tracking point at work. Only got two left now As far as I know the AR has not been released yet. Were slated for one of each IIRC.



AR wise, we have been producing some interesting lightweight rifles at work, Voodoo tactical barrels with Magnesium lowers. One setting on the shelf right now weighs in at 5.3 and we still have some stuff to do to it.

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Old 05-13-2014, 11:25 PM   #14
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I am personally not going to go out of my way to buy a Tavor, but if I were to come across a great deal, I'd snag it. The Tavor is a pretty good rifle. It's been battle tested through several major engagements with Hezbollah militants, Lebonese and Syrian forces, and in maritime interdiction environments. It's a rifle that is designed to function in harsh extremes like desert and maritime. The commercial version we get is nearly identical to the IDF issued TAR-21.
I'll be the first one to say that I am highly annoyed by the way that the Israelis do some things and think that they're the awesomest CQB/urban warriors in existence. I think "Israeli carry" with an empty pistol chamber is fucking stupid. BUT, that doesn't mean that there isn't merit to what they do and why they do it. It works for their needs. Inasmuch, despite the fact that the Tavor is different, that doesn't mean it sucks. It is certainly ugly as sin, but that means about as much as the corn in my poop means when you look at whether looks affect functionality.

Having read a number of training course AARs, the Tavors that have been in the courses are holding their own. They have been reliable, durable, functional and accurate. In the end, I think that's all anyone can ask for.

My only issue with it is the differentiation in the manual of arms. I have so much time on the AR platform in an operational/professional environment that I just simply prefer to run ARs. I love ARs. Operationally I would have no desire to run a Tavor. I would have no problem doing it if I were issued one, but if given a choice I'll take what's familiar.
I think a lot of the problem lies with people who aren't familiar with it. A lot of people shit on the Tavor, but I think a lot of it is because it's different. It's not an AR or an AK. There are legitimate gripes on the platform, but most trashing I've read has nothing to do with those specific issues.

Wow, I'm unusually militant tonight... oh well. Fuck it.
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Old 05-13-2014, 11:25 PM   #15
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^^ No arguments here.

Anyone have experience with the Tavor? Seems lots of people in AR forums poo-poo them, mainly for ergonomics. Which doesn't make much sense to me. When handling in the LGS it feels very well balanced with the majority of the rifles weight sitting 8" in front of your shoulder. I guess they are talking about magazine manipulation when they are saying ergonomics.

Clearly it's not a replacement rifle for an AR and even less of a replacement for an AR in terms of a SHTF event. But as a rifle or even a SBR replacement, it seems to fit the bill pretty well. Piston designed from the ground up, well balanced, replaceable triggers now, and i even hear that they are shifting the mag release to the standard AR location with some additional linkage in the next version. However, i don't have issue with a different type of mag release personally.

I'm thinking about trying one out but would like to get some first hand opinions first.
I hate the tavor, A friend of mine is sort of a insider, he gets his hands on a lot of prototype parts before anybody else. There building him a prototype flared magwell right now. Long story short, hes a tavor whore because hes jewish, I really cant sugar coat that.... The rifles accurate to a point but the AR tops it everywhere else. SBR replacement? just buy a sbr.

The tavor is a fad weapon, you wont be able to give them away in a year...atleast not near what they are going for now.
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Old 05-13-2014, 11:56 PM   #16
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The tavor is a fad weapon, you wont be able to give them away in a year...atleast not near what they are going for now.
I agree with this about 50%. It's a niche weapon. It fills a role and it's a novelty for most people. It's akin to the HK SL8 and USC. However, IWI actually is supporting this weapon and there is a decent aftermarket developing to further support the Tavor. This is unlike the SL8 and USC, in that those fizzled out because HK released then and then told everyone to go fuck themselves because they suck and HK hates them.
The Steyr AUG was pretty poorly supported as well.

The market trend right now is showing an increased trend of bullpup designs. Good or bad, it's happening. Will it last? I'm not sure. It all comes down market support I suspect. I think the IWI will have the support.
What helps it is development of other rifles like the incoming Desert Tech MDR, which is slated to be a big game changer when it hits the market in 2015.
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Old 05-14-2014, 08:22 AM   #17
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I'm late to the party, but if I wanted to build a rock solid AR this is what I would do.

Upper:
BCM BFH 16" Mid Length Light Weight with 13" KMR (or wait until summer when they release the 15" version if you want a longer handguard)
Battle Comp 2.0
Magpul MBUS or Troy BUS
BCM Gunfighter Charging Handle
BCM BCG

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Noveske Gen 2 Lower Receiver
G&R Tactical or Daniel Defense LPK
Battle Arms Development Ambi Safety
Battle Arms Development Pivot Pin Set
ALG ACT (I just happen to really like these triggers, I have them in all of my ARs)
BCM Grip
BCM Buffer Tube
Quality H Buffer (BCM, Colt, Etc)
Sprinco White Buffer Spring
Noveske End Plate
Magpul CTR or if you like a larger cheek weld the STR or B5 SOPMOD
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Old 05-14-2014, 02:04 PM   #18
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I agree with this about 50%. It's a niche weapon. It fills a role and it's a novelty for most people. It's akin to the HK SL8 and USC. However, IWI actually is supporting this weapon and there is a decent aftermarket developing to further support the Tavor. This is unlike the SL8 and USC, in that those fizzled out because HK released then and then told everyone to go fuck themselves because they suck and HK hates them.
The Steyr AUG was pretty poorly supported as well.

The market trend right now is showing an increased trend of bullpup designs. Good or bad, it's happening. Will it last? I'm not sure. It all comes down market support I suspect. I think the IWI will have the support.
What helps it is development of other rifles like the incoming Desert Tech MDR, which is slated to be a big game changer when it hits the market in 2015.
The real problem with any platform like that is only one company is producing the weapon. Every single cutting edge weapon that has ever been produced never took off unless multiple companies produced such weapons. I could list a ton of great assault rifles from the last 20-30 years that are "better" than the AR but they slowly died off.
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Old 05-16-2014, 05:06 PM   #19
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Well, the money that was burning a hole in my pocket has tempered a bit. i've focused my OCD to purchase a new rifle onto selling a rifle and some other things.

I suppose when it comes down to it i'll end up going with an EAG tactical or some variant of it. Something similar to Serbonze's post. I think the Tavor is a fine rifle based on users' opinions but i think for this next rifle i'll stick to the AR platform. Maybe with the next rifle i'll go outside the norm.

Thanks for the input.
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Old 05-16-2014, 06:56 PM   #20
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The only downside to the EAG, in my opinion, is that the muzzle device is welded.
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