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Old 06-09-2014, 04:31 PM   #41
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And civilian at walmart was CCW. There goes the good guy gun theory.
I would argue that the armed citizen who engaged the shooters likely saved many lives with his actions that day.

Most active shooters have some fantasy that has been role played in their head or written out as a script. Most of the time that script ends with the shooter killing themselves. It's not by accident that the police protocol to deal with these guys are to engage them as quickly as possible. Police have learned that these people realize the only thing they really have control over is taking their own lives. Authorities have also learned that the within seconds of being engaged by police, these shooters often take their own lives. So the sooner they get engaged by someone who may take that control away from them, the sooner they take themselves out.

The armed citizen, by exchanging fire with them, may have triggered the suicide part of their plan. Without any opposing force, the shooters may have decided to start a turkey shoot in an unarmed walmart.

Of course this is speculation, but it is also speculation based on current police protocol and why that protocol exists.
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Old 06-09-2014, 04:34 PM   #42
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Location: CA

Response to be expected.

I'll touch base on this this evening when I'm off work.
Ad hom, to be expected...
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Doing drugs and having sex... oh wow big deal. Well it is actually a HUGE deal.

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Old 06-09-2014, 04:36 PM   #43
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Nor have I (personally). Quote me when I spoke of starting one.

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Revolution time yet?
You don't have to be that explicit.
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Old 06-09-2014, 04:39 PM   #44
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I would argue that the armed citizen who engaged the shooters likely saved many lives with his actions that day.

Most active shooters have some fantasy that has been role played in their head or written out as a script. Most of the time that script ends with the shooter killing themselves. It's not by accident that the police protocol to deal with these guys are to engage them as quickly as possible. Police have learned that these people realize the only thing they really have control over is taking their own lives. Authorities have also learned that the within seconds of being engaged by police, these shooters often take their own lives. So the sooner they get engaged by someone who may take that control away from them, the sooner they take themselves out.

The armed citizen, by exchanging fire with them, may have triggered the suicide part of their plan. Without any opposing force, the shooters may have decided to start a turkey shoot in an unarmed walmart.

Of course this is speculation, but it is also speculation based on current police protocol and why that protocol exists.
NBC, at least, is reporting that the suspects engaged in a firefight with police, were wounded, and then killed themselves.

CCW guy only accomplished getting himself killed. Even when you are carrying, the point is to use this element of surprise to save your own life. We don't know if he was attempting to save his life when he drew his weapon, or if he was being a 'hero,' prob will never know.
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Old 06-09-2014, 04:44 PM   #45
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Seems to be lots of different information out there. No big surprise considering the type of prying investigatory work the media does before reporting. Some reports say citizen exchanged fire with them, and then the crazies went into the back of the store and offed themselves.
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Old 06-09-2014, 04:45 PM   #46
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Two officers were shot by the gunmen -- a man and a woman -- as they ate lunch at CiCi's Pizza, it said, citing police sources. One of the officers died at the scene, while the second subsequently died in surgery.
Two good guys with guns couldn't stop 2 bad guys with guns.
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Old 06-09-2014, 04:47 PM   #47
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name one good reason that a person needs a gun? nothing? that's what i thought. ban guns
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Old 06-09-2014, 04:48 PM   #48
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Two good guys with guns couldn't stop 2 bad guys with guns.
The person with the element of surprise generally wins. One person could have a pocket knife while another was armed with a handgun, a pistol, a rocket launcher, and a grenade. If the guy with the knife killed them before they recognized he was a threat, however, none of their much more "dangerous" weapons would have much of a chance to do anything about it, much less stop the attacker.
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Old 06-09-2014, 04:49 PM   #49
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Just read a more recent report on the shooting. Looks like I got the details wrong on the concealed carrier.

Guess he heard the shooting up front and decided to confront the gunman and his wife. Got up front with his gun drawn and had the guy cornered, but didn't expect the woman. She pulled out a gun when he wasn't expecting it and shot him.

The guy died trying to defend the lives of those in the store and his own. He's a hero for trying. We as concealed carry guys are taught not to do this stuff, to not put ourselves in harms way and to not play Rambo/hero. We all hope to avoid/run/flee and use the gun as a last resort.

But there are times when in the moment, courage of those that can act is required. This guy didn't know what was happening, but they could easily have been shooting everyone in sight. He was the only one at the time that was capable of trying to act and save lives and he took it upon himself to try. It's unfortunate he perished in the attempt. Honestly, he should have just shot the gunman the second he had him in his sights and dealt with her immediately afterward if necessary.

We can all Monday morning QB him, but we weren't there. Rip
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Old 06-09-2014, 04:50 PM   #50
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name one good reason that a person needs a gun? nothing? that's what i thought. ban guns
Hunting, pleasure/competition shooting, self-defense, defense of family, defense of other innocents, and (in extreme cases) to throw off an unwanted government.
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Old 06-09-2014, 04:50 PM   #51
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name one good reason that a person needs a gun? nothing? that's what i thought. ban guns
Easier than learning German
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I agree with JonJon.
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Old 06-09-2014, 04:55 PM   #52
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The guns is waging war on media owners
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Old 06-09-2014, 04:55 PM   #53
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Easier than learning German
Obama is German?
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Old 06-09-2014, 05:00 PM   #54
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duh

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Old 06-09-2014, 05:19 PM   #55
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Hunting, pleasure/competition shooting, self-defense, defense of family, defense of other innocents, and (in extreme cases) to throw off an unwanted government.
killing, destroying, killing, killing, killing, killing
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Old 06-09-2014, 05:26 PM   #56
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For some reason, this came to mind.....
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Old 06-09-2014, 05:26 PM   #57
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killing, destroying, killing, killing, killing, killing
We're animals. Where do you think that delicious hamburger you ate came from? Hugs and high fives? Lol
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Old 06-09-2014, 05:29 PM   #58
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Old 06-09-2014, 05:51 PM   #59
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The grocery store STUPID
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Old 06-09-2014, 06:04 PM   #60
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I'm beginning to see your point. Guns are very dangerous and should only be in the hands of trained professionals such as army, police, and myself.
agreed
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