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Old 06-11-2014, 12:12 PM   #21
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I think we should bring back the term Chinaman.
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Old 06-11-2014, 12:13 PM   #22
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Good point on the slur, as it likely always has been. Then again, maybe so has redskin, but because we only have accounts written by white people, there's little to tell us if the target group was offended in the 19th century.

IHMO it's much less acceptable today, as people outside the group will be more likely to be offended by hearing it, vs. 100 years ago when they were more likely to be using it. There are groups within society where it's become the norm, but I'm referring to society as a whole.
I disagree. I think it's more acceptable today, but only because it's meaning and intent have changed over time.

Which of course brings up the whole question of "who gets to decide if a term is offensive?" for society.

The majority in the targeted group? In this case, there's evidence that most Indians are not offended by Redskins. So does that mean it's not offensive?

Anyone in the targeted group? I'd bet that in any decent sized population, we could find one person that's offended by anything. I am of Irish descent. If I alone find the Fighting Irish mascot offensive, is Notre Dame obligated to change it?

The majority in society? Certainly for many decades, the majority in society found nothing offensive about any term leavened against racial, religious and other minorities. So the wisdom of the majority doesn't have a great track record.

Anyone in society? That's a can of friggin worms.

Solly mentioned someone's white upbringing. Solly himself is pretty darn white, but he's also a smart guy that's been around the block a few times. There are plenty of situations where Solly might be a disinterested 3rd party observer to a situation, but still be able to recognize one party that was being derogatory towards another. And he might rightfully find that offensive to his own values. But should he intervene? What if the 2 parties he's observing don't find it offensive? What is Solly's opinion worth relative to theirs? Is it worth less because he's not directly involved? Or is it worth more because he's more objective since he's not the one being derogatory or being treated derogatorily?
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Old 06-11-2014, 12:14 PM   #23
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I think we should bring back the term Chinaman.
I think we should ban the terms Englishman and Frenchman.
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Old 06-11-2014, 12:19 PM   #24
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Old 06-11-2014, 12:21 PM   #25
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I think we should bring back the term Chinaman.
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Old 06-11-2014, 12:34 PM   #26
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Does anyone honestly care? Is anyone that bothered by it?
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Old 06-11-2014, 12:38 PM   #27
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Does anyone honestly care? Is anyone that bothered by it?
people with too much time on their hands.
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Old 06-11-2014, 12:43 PM   #28
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Does anyone honestly care? Is anyone that bothered by it?
You don't get it. White people don't care, native americans do. That's all that matters.
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Old 06-11-2014, 01:03 PM   #29
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I disagree. I think it's more acceptable today, but only because it's meaning and intent have changed over time.

Which of course brings up the whole question of "who gets to decide if a term is offensive?" for society.

The majority in the targeted group? In this case, there's evidence that most Indians are not offended by Redskins. So does that mean it's not offensive?

Anyone in the targeted group? I'd bet that in any decent sized population, we could find one person that's offended by anything. I am of Irish descent. If I alone find the Fighting Irish mascot offensive, is Notre Dame obligated to change it?

The majority in society? Certainly for many decades, the majority in society found nothing offensive about any term leavened against racial, religious and other minorities. So the wisdom of the majority doesn't have a great track record.

Anyone in society? That's a can of friggin worms.

Solly mentioned someone's white upbringing. Solly himself is pretty darn white, but he's also a smart guy that's been around the block a few times. There are plenty of situations where Solly might be a disinterested 3rd party observer to a situation, but still be able to recognize one party that was being derogatory towards another. And he might rightfully find that offensive to his own values. But should he intervene? What if the 2 parties he's observing don't find it offensive? What is Solly's opinion worth relative to theirs? Is it worth less because he's not directly involved? Or is it worth more because he's more objective since he's not the one being derogatory or being treated derogatorily?
You ask all the right questions, and we can agree to disagree on how currently acceptable the N-word is. Now, if only you and I could answer all those questions...

A big point in the debate seems to be whether, or what percentage of, Natives find the term offensive. That, we'll likely never know. Reservations are sovereign nations, so we can't make them vote on it. There are far too many tribes to get a straight answer, anyway, so even if we're only hearing the vocal minority, that's all we'll get. Honestly, though, isn't the vocal minority all we ever get in a situation like this?
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Old 06-11-2014, 01:18 PM   #30
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Old 06-11-2014, 01:20 PM   #31
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Old 06-11-2014, 01:36 PM   #32
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You don't get it. White people don't care, native americans do. That's all that matters.
Only a small minority. Why do schools on reservations have Redskins as their mascot if it's so offensive?
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Old 06-11-2014, 01:39 PM   #33
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You don't get it. White people don't care, native americans do. That's all that matters.
When was the last time you saw a native american in person?
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Old 06-11-2014, 01:47 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Xcelratr View Post
I disagree. I think it's more acceptable today, but only because it's meaning and intent have changed over time.

Which of course brings up the whole question of "who gets to decide if a term is offensive?" for society.

The majority in the targeted group? In this case, there's evidence that most Indians are not offended by Redskins. So does that mean it's not offensive?

Anyone in the targeted group? I'd bet that in any decent sized population, we could find one person that's offended by anything. I am of Irish descent. If I alone find the Fighting Irish mascot offensive, is Notre Dame obligated to change it?

The majority in society? Certainly for many decades, the majority in society found nothing offensive about any term leavened against racial, religious and other minorities. So the wisdom of the majority doesn't have a great track record.

Anyone in society? That's a can of friggin worms.

Solly mentioned someone's white upbringing. Solly himself is pretty darn white, but he's also a smart guy that's been around the block a few times. There are plenty of situations where Solly might be a disinterested 3rd party observer to a situation, but still be able to recognize one party that was being derogatory towards another. And he might rightfully find that offensive to his own values. But should he intervene? What if the 2 parties he's observing don't find it offensive? What is Solly's opinion worth relative to theirs? Is it worth less because he's not directly involved? Or is it worth more because he's more objective since he's not the one being derogatory or being treated derogatorily?
don't even bring native american imagery into this

my school was forced to get rid of this Chief



but FSU can keep this flaming spear chucker?



FVCK you ncaa!

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You don't get it. Native american people don't care, white hipster liberal douches do. That's all that apparently matters.
FIFY

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Old 06-11-2014, 01:51 PM   #35
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don't even bring native american imagery into this

my school was forced to get rid of this Chief



but FSU can keep this flaming speak chucker?



FVCK you ncaa!



FIFY

my high school mascot was the warrior




and of course UCSB.

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Old 06-11-2014, 01:56 PM   #36
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looks like a superhero. what kind of warrior is that?

and the gouchos lol
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Old 06-11-2014, 02:06 PM   #37
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You don't get it. White people don't care, native americans do. That's all that matters.
They name their own teams the redskins lol... Wait, is it "their" word now?

I'm pretty sure people have no clue about the origin and use of the word and are just shooting from the hip and hoping for the best.
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Old 06-11-2014, 02:24 PM   #38
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Old 06-11-2014, 03:18 PM   #39
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Racial slur as a team name is a lot different than Oklahoma.

The Blackhawks have been under pressure for years to change their name, just like the Cleveland Indians (although, both mostly for their mascot/logo). This is not some "slippery slope" argument - no other race would have a team named after a slur. No Detroit N**gers. No San Antonio S*ics. No way the nation's capital should have a team using that name.
Actually, since Oklahoma was named by a Spanish explorer(White, or as I like to be called "European American") specifically because so many Native Americans were there, it kind of is the exact same thing.

And it is a slippery slope argument. The moment you force a private business to change their name or any other part because something offends a few people, it sets a precedence.

EDIT: Oh, and my wife is part Native American, and proud of her heritage. She is not offended in the slightest by the name. She is actually more offended that her people are being used to make this change, because a small subset are upset.

And for your bolded point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...d_mascot_names

Knicks, Vikings, Aztecs, Eskimos, Canucks, and many other names. Most used to project power and prowess, not to insult or offend.
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Old 06-11-2014, 03:24 PM   #40
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You don't get it. White people don't care, native americans do. That's all that matters.
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