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Old 07-18-2014, 01:29 PM   #61
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We don't know that, do we?

All we do know, so far, is that he was a criminal, a repeat criminal who has been arrested multiple times in just the last few months.

We also know he could not work, but could sell illegal cigs on the street every day.

Now, when all the investigation is done and we find out his entire criminal record, he make become more non-violent or more violent in other people's eyes.
Yeah... Gettin popped for hustling cigs is not like an assault & battery charge or any other violent crime
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Old 07-18-2014, 01:52 PM   #62
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he was suspected of illegal activity and had a record of illegal activity. he has to listen to and follow orders from the police. he directly said to them he was not going to comply. you idiots want the cops to just say ok and ignore him? lmfao. if you are not going to comply they will make you. it was his choice and unfortunately he paid the ultimate price. cops did nothing wrong there. they do not have to negotiate with people they are detaining. if you don't listen expect to get a baton upside the head or choked out. too bad he was a fat ass and had a heart attack. again, not the problem of the police. he brought it all on himself.

i shouldn't be surprised. we are a society of blame your problems on everyone else, instead of just doing what you are supposed to and complying when you are busted.

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Old 07-18-2014, 02:03 PM   #63
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i shouldn't be surprised. we are a society of blame your problems on everyone else, instead of just doing what you are supposed to and complying when you are busted.
What a load of crap. Wrongful death is what this is. Plain and simple. Cops frequently overstep their level of authority. Those who point this out are subject to even more abuse from the police. If they had anything on the guy then they had a procedure to obtain the evidence that proved him of any wrong doing. Would you be so kind to point out the choke hold portion of the procedures for obtaining evidence?
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Old 07-18-2014, 02:12 PM   #64
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What a load of crap. Wrongful death is what this is. Plain and simple. Cops frequently overstep their level of authority. Those who point this out are subject to even more abuse from the police. If they had anything on the guy then they had a procedure to obtain the evidence that proved him of any wrong doing. Would you be so kind to point out the choke hold portion of the procedures for obtaining evidence?
they can detail him, no question. he refused and you want them to just back off? give me a break. if they want to cuff him they have every right to do so. you can't just tell them no i don't want to be handcuffed.
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Old 07-18-2014, 02:17 PM   #65
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they can detail him, no question. he refused and you want them to just back off? give me a break. if they want to cuff him they have every right to do so. you can't just tell them no i don't want to be handcuffed.
They do not have any right to detain him in any way unless he is found guilty of a crime. If he is not guilty of a crime then he is free to go on his way (or stand where he is) without obstruction or handcuffs.

Know your rights.
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Old 07-18-2014, 02:18 PM   #66
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he was suspected of illegal activity and had a record of illegal activity. he has to listen to and follow orders from the police. he directly said to them he was not going to comply. you idiots want the cops to just say ok and ignore him? lmfao. if you are not going to comply they will make you. it was his choice and unfortunately he paid the ultimate price. cops did nothing wrong there. they do not have to negotiate with people they are detaining. if you don't listen expect to get a baton upside the head or choked out. too bad he was a fat ass and had a heart attack. again, not the problem of the police. he brought it all on himself.

i shouldn't be surprised. we are a society of blame your problems on everyone else, instead of just doing what you are supposed to and complying when you are busted.
The real issue isn't whether or not force was needed. It's not even really about excessive force.

It's about the impunity granted to police officers once force is brought into a situation. Once any type of force is brought into the equation, the officer's life or fellow officer's lives have more value than anyone else's involved. The victim of the recent bank robbery shoot out is a prime example. In the investigation, all they have to say is that the perps threatened their wellbeing and that gives them quite a bit of leeway for excessive force. Which is usually chalked up to, "sometimes, things go bad".

So what i'm saying is these types of incidents are only going to keep happening and increase in frequency because of 2 things. 1, Police are relatively untouchable as long as they adhere to department policy. (which always protects the officer) 2, because people will continue to become more indignant towards police as long as number 1 is still allowed.
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Old 07-18-2014, 02:19 PM   #67
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They do not have any right to detain him in any way unless he is found guilty of a crime. If he is not guilty of a crime then he is free to go on his way (or stand where he is) without obstruction or handcuffs.

Know your rights.
To be technical, they would have to have probable cause that he committed a crime. No one would be found guilty of a crime on the street, that is for the court and jury to ascertain.

You can't just arrest random people on the street, probable cause is the key (or straight up witnessing a crime being committed). In fact, without PC or greater the police can't do much or command a citizen to do anything unless they are obstructing the police by their presence (standing in the wrong spot, blocking traffic, etc.).
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Old 07-18-2014, 02:23 PM   #68
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They do not have any right to detain him in any way unless he is found guilty of a crime. If he is not guilty of a crime then he is free to go on his way (or stand where he is) without obstruction or handcuffs.

Know your rights.
LOL

Says "can't be detained unless found guilty". Tells you to know your rights.

You're very confused about how this whole suspicion > detain > investigate > arrest > charge > prosecute > convict process works.

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Old 07-18-2014, 02:24 PM   #69
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What a load of crap. Wrongful death is what this is. Plain and simple. Cops frequently overstep their level of authority. Those who point this out are subject to even more abuse from the police. If they had anything on the guy then they had a procedure to obtain the evidence that proved him of any wrong doing. Would you be so kind to point out the choke hold portion of the procedures for obtaining evidence?
He was "choked" for 10 seconds max. 10 seconds!
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Old 07-18-2014, 02:26 PM   #70
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They do not have any right to detain him in any way unless he is found guilty of a crime. If he is not guilty of a crime then he is free to go on his way (or stand where he is) without obstruction or handcuffs.

Know your rights.
you don't have to be found guilty, it's not the police's job to try anyone. they are there to gather and present evidence. with probable cause they can detain you. yes, whether they had probable cause to detain the man can be questioned, but that is not up to him to decide. yelling i didn't do anything so you can't arrest me does not mean they can't cuff your ass. in fact you are escalating the situation and giving them more reason the detail your fat ass.
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Old 07-18-2014, 02:31 PM   #71
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To be technical, they would have to have probable cause that he committed a crime. No one would be found guilty of a crime on the street, that is for the court and jury to ascertain.

You can't just arrest random people on the street, probable cause is the key (or straight up witnessing a crime being committed). In fact, without PC or greater the police can't do much or command a citizen to do anything unless they are obstructing the police by their presence (standing in the wrong spot, blocking traffic, etc.).
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Old 07-18-2014, 02:32 PM   #72
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I also forgot reasonable suspicion, its late on Friday and I'm done being a lawyer for the week
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Old 07-18-2014, 02:33 PM   #73
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you don't have to be found guilty, it's not the police's job to try anyone. they are there to gather and present evidence. with probable cause they can detain you. yes, whether they had probable cause to detain the man can be questioned, but that is not up to him to decide. yelling i didn't do anything so you can't arrest me does not mean they can't cuff your ass. in fact you are escalating the situation and giving them more reason the detail your fat ass.
They need to place him under arrest. They do not have the right to just tackle you and cuff you because they don't like you for _____________(insert reason a cop may not like someone). It didn't appear that he was resisting arrest. It looked a lot more like he was resisting harassment.
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Old 07-18-2014, 02:34 PM   #74
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I can't comment on what happened before the video rolled, but it seems the man broke up a fight and bystanders were corroborating his story. Honestly, I don't know if that's right. Maybe the police witnessed him breaking the law.
Maybe an investigation will show the officers arrest was never justified. I didn't see anyone there pressing charges or a victim of anything.

What I can comment on is the use of force against someone that was not resisting once on the ground. His palms were extended and face up and he was 100% submitting while complaining that he couldn't breath. There is no need for 1000lbs of force on the guys body and a lethal choke hold. None at all. Police are trained that "officer safety" overrides everything. The law, your rights and your life. That's the problem.

He wasn't a threat to anyone... why not simply TALK to him? Force should be a last resort
lol you talk so much about protecting yourself and your family with your big guns and yet in every police case you are siding with the criminals. if you acted like you talk about the police you wouldn't make it a year on a police force. your chief would be bring your wife a flag and your badge to cry over within a few months.

Here Lies JonJon

An officer who died in the line of duty doing what he did best. Trying to convince criminals to drive themselves to jail.

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Old 07-18-2014, 02:35 PM   #75
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He was "choked" for 10 seconds max. 10 seconds!
Apparently that's all it took. The duration is rather irrelevant at this point.
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Old 07-18-2014, 02:38 PM   #76
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LOL

Says "can't be detained unless found guilty". Tells you to know your rights.

You're very confused about how this whole suspicion > detain > investigate > arrest > charge > prosecute > convict process works.

Meant to suggest he was not being placed under arrest... for which they would need probably cause for. It was edited... perhaps they did read him his rights... or perhaps they were about to until they accidentally killed him before they got that far with their legally questionable procedures.
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Old 07-18-2014, 02:41 PM   #77
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He was "choked" for 10 seconds max. 10 seconds!
The dude was:

- Obese
- Had asthma

That's a big out-of-shape body that needs a lot of air.
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Old 07-18-2014, 02:48 PM   #78
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from a 2004 NYPD Patrol Guide:
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"Members of the New York City Police Department will NOT use chokeholds. A chokehold shall include, but is not limited to, any pressure to the throat or windpipe, which may prevent or hinder breathing or reduce intake of air."
Plain clothes cop is going to be charged for sure.
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Old 07-18-2014, 03:02 PM   #79
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oops!
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Old 07-18-2014, 03:04 PM   #80
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They need to place him under arrest. They do not have the right to just tackle you and cuff you because they don't like you for _____________(insert reason a cop may not like someone). It didn't appear that he was resisting arrest. It looked a lot more like he was resisting harassment.
How do you know they didn't have a perfectly good reason to detain and/or arrest him?

Do you know what the cops saw? Do you know what they heard from other people? Did they have a complainant?

Someone has alleged that he broke up a fight. Did he really? If he did, did he use excessive force in doing so? Maybe a dude down the block has been severely beaten and told the cops that this 400 lb dude is the one that beat him.

The fact is, you don't know dick about what happened, except what's seen on the edited video.

And WTF are you talking about "didn't appear he was resisting arrest"? Look at the video, starting at 1:19, the cops try to cuff him, he pulls his hands away, turns away, backs away, says "don't touch me". That's resisting arrest. Plain and simple.


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Meant to suggest he was not being placed under arrest... for which they would need probably cause for. It was edited... perhaps they did read him his rights... or perhaps they were about to until they accidentally killed him before they got that far with their legally questionable procedures.
You don't know if he was being placed under arrest, or just being detained for further investigation.

They don't have to read you your rights before detaining you, or before cuffing you.

Know your rights.
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