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Old 07-27-2014, 10:50 PM   #141
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Old 07-28-2014, 01:36 AM   #142
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I find it really sad how some of these people who blindly back up cops that are clearly out of line and have the "he resisted he deserved it" type of attitude. Just wait till something happens to you or your friends/family and id love to hear your opionion then. Police brutality is on a major rise in the last few years.
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Old 07-28-2014, 07:29 AM   #143
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I find it really sad how some of these people who blindly back up cops that are clearly out of line and have the "he resisted he deserved it" type of attitude. Just wait till something happens to you or your friends/family and id love to hear your opionion then. Police brutality is on a major rise in the last few years.
Stats on that, or are you just going with "I saw this 8 times in the media this year"
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Old 07-28-2014, 10:52 AM   #144
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I find it really sad how some of these people who blindly back up cops that are clearly out of line and have the "he resisted he deserved it" type of attitude. Just wait till something happens to you or your friends/family and id love to hear your opionion then. Police brutality is on a major rise in the last few years.
I haven't seen anyone ITT blindly back up cops. Have you?

I haven't seen anyone ITT say he "deserved it" because he resisted. Have you?

And like Zell said, can you back up your claim about police brutality? And can you frame it in the context of the overall level of violence in society?
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Old 07-28-2014, 11:35 AM   #145
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You know what's on the rise is MOBILE CAMERAS. I expect police brutality to actually drop some because of this. Don't confuse more recorded instances of police brutality with an actual increase in police brutality.
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Old 07-28-2014, 11:52 AM   #146
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You know what's on the rise is MOBILE CAMERAS. I expect police brutality to actually drop some because of this. Don't confuse more recorded instances of police brutality with an actual increase in police brutality.
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Old 07-28-2014, 12:07 PM   #147
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This guy didn't die after being put in a choke hold at 8 seconds in. Looks like his head was slammed to the ground too, just like Tyron Biggums was. It wasn't police brutality when the guy resisted and then died for being fat as fvck. He probably crushed his own organs with his neck fat.
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Old 07-28-2014, 01:33 PM   #148
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^^ hahaahaha

Dude was running around cars from the cops like he was a streaker or something...


Totally guessing, but.... I would bet that 80 times out of 100 the correct use of force is administered. I'm guessing that 17 times out of 100 excessive force is used correctly and probably saved someone else or even the perp from further injury. 3 times out of 100 excessive force is used without cause. Out of those 3 times maybe only .02% of the time someone dies.

My problem with the excessive force is for those 3 times where it's completely unjustified, the police are typically granted some type of impunity for their actions because those actions fall within standard police or department policy. THIS, has to stop.

With the increase use of mobile cameras and the mind set of recording police interactions, people will be more likely to resist in some fashion because they "know their rights". This will in turn cause what looks like more instances of excessive force because of videos that keep getting posted of someone not complying with police instructions and then getting taken down physically due to noncompliance.

The problem the police have with the 20 out of 100 is that 20 out of 20 times when people don't comply with police commands, they can't tell which ones are trying to drum up a lawsuit, going to make a run for it, pull a knife, pull a gun, commit suicide, etc... And in many situations, when they don't contain the perp from the start, innocent people's lives are often put in danger. It's much safer for everyone but the person resisting arrest for the police to use what may be perceived as excessive force to diffuse the situation immediately rather than have to try and contain and then diffuse it.

When it's absolutely obvious that the force used was unnecessary, the offending office needs to pay for it. I don't know what the fix is except maybe to prosecute those officers criminally if they were found to be outside of standard procedures. I'm ok with the department funding the defense to a point, but should he lose, that money becomes a debt that is allowed to be garnished from his wages until paid back. Maybe offer the prosecutors the officer's pension and benefits should they get a conviction. maybe that will ensure the state puts some effort into the trial.

Seriously though, as soon as we stop taking our police officers from the human gene pool, we'll get perfect cops. But until then, some people suck and some people are cops; so some cops suck. Deal with it.

Pretty easy to deal with as well..... Don't want to have police use excessive force on you, don't break the law.
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Old 07-29-2014, 01:00 AM   #149
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This guy didn't die after being put in a choke hold at 8 seconds in. Looks like his head was slammed to the ground too, just like Tyron Biggums was. It wasn't police brutality when the guy resisted and then died for being fat as fvck. He probably crushed his own organs with his neck fat.
Saying that the guy in the OP definitely died because he's fat and not because of what the police did is just as disingenuous as saying that he definitely died because of what the police did.


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Totally guessing, but.... I would bet that 80 times out of 100 the correct use of force is administered. I'm guessing that 17 times out of 100 excessive force is used correctly and probably saved someone else or even the perp from further injury. 3 times out of 100 excessive force is used without cause. Out of those 3 times maybe only .02% of the time someone dies.

My problem with the excessive force is for those 3 times where it's completely unjustified, the police are typically granted some type of impunity for their actions because those actions fall within standard police or department policy. THIS, has to stop.

With the increase use of mobile cameras and the mind set of recording police interactions, people will be more likely to resist in some fashion because they "know their rights". This will in turn cause what looks like more instances of excessive force because of videos that keep getting posted of someone not complying with police instructions and then getting taken down physically due to noncompliance.

The problem the police have with the 20 out of 100 is that 20 out of 20 times when people don't comply with police commands, they can't tell which ones are trying to drum up a lawsuit, going to make a run for it, pull a knife, pull a gun, commit suicide, etc... And in many situations, when they don't contain the perp from the start, innocent people's lives are often put in danger. It's much safer for everyone but the person resisting arrest for the police to use what may be perceived as excessive force to diffuse the situation immediately rather than have to try and contain and then diffuse it.

When it's absolutely obvious that the force used was unnecessary, the offending office needs to pay for it. I don't know what the fix is except maybe to prosecute those officers criminally if they were found to be outside of standard procedures. I'm ok with the department funding the defense to a point, but should he lose, that money becomes a debt that is allowed to be garnished from his wages until paid back. Maybe offer the prosecutors the officer's pension and benefits should they get a conviction. maybe that will ensure the state puts some effort into the trial.

Seriously though, as soon as we stop taking our police officers from the human gene pool, we'll get perfect cops. But until then, some people suck and some people are cops; so some cops suck. Deal with it.

Pretty easy to deal with as well..... Don't want to have police use excessive force on you, don't break the law.
It's not that simple.

How about someone that doesn't break the law and just runs into a cop that's having a bad day?

Yes, lots of people that are subjected to excessive force play a pretty big part in causing the situation.

But to pretend like all you have to do is never break the law, or never resist arrest if you do and you'll never have to deal with a bad cop is pretty naive.
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Old 07-29-2014, 03:01 AM   #150
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E46OT, where breathing is a technicality.

You've never taken even the most rudimentary first aid class, have you? What you like to refer to as a "technicality" is a critical piece of information.

I am not a medical professional of any kind. But if you were on the phone with 911 or talking to EMTs on scene or in the ER with someone, and you told them "he can't breathe, I just heard him gasp for air", they would say "well, which is it, he can't breathe or he's able to get air by gasping?"

If I was in a situation where someone yelled out "hurry he can't breathe" and was about to start rescue breathing on a victim that I had just heard gasp for air, I would stop them from doing so, and I don't care how people looked at me or whether they thought breathing was a technicality or not.

It's nice that you change your example to fit your point, though.

First you said the victim is "gasping for air". That indicates that air IS passing through his throat, although something is causing him to have to work harder at it than usual.

You know why that matters? Because you don't do anything. He's breathing. He won't die from not breathing unless something changes. You don't perform rescue breathing on someone that is breathing. Now, you may call an ambulance or get an asthmatic their inhaler or help a heart patient take their nitroglycerin or find out if they're been exposed to something they're allergic to and see if they carry an epipen or . But you treat them as someone can breathe. Because, ya know, that's what they are. A breather.

Then, when you didn't like the answer you got, you changed your example to say "dying and choking on his own blood". Choking indicates that air IS NOT passing through his throat.

You know why that matters? Because you have to do something. He's not breathing. He will die from not breathing unless something changes. You have to clear his airway and if that doesn't cause him to start breathing again on his own, you have to perform rescue breathing on him because he's not breathing.

See the difference this "technicality" creates?
That's an awful lot of words to miss my point.

You're trying to argue that the common use of a phrase is not technically correct from a medical professional's use. It's irrelevant.


Back to the original point:

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If you can talk, you can breathe. This guy could talk, therefore he could breathe. If they didn't "prevent or hinder breathing or reduce intake of air" then by the language of the manual, they didn't choke him.
You say "If you can talk, you can breath" but in the next sentence, you admit the language of the manual defines choke as "prevent or hinder breathing or reduce intake of air".

So again, if someone says "he's choking!" or "he can't breath!", many times in a panicked situation, the lay person is referring to a state of "hindered breathing or a reduced intake of air". Basically how you just stated they defined "choke".

No where did I say the distinction is unimportant. I'm saying it's irrelevant to your point - "If you can talk, you can breathe". Talking rules out complete inability to breathe. It doesn't rule out "hinder breathing or reduce intake of air". Therefore, irrelevant.

The only reason I commented was because you took the colloquial phrase "he couldn't breath" and then interpreted it as the "technically correct definition" to accomplish some kind of Pyrrhic victory that still demonstrates that you're wrong.
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Old 07-29-2014, 04:07 AM   #151
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Stats on that, or are you just going with "I saw this 8 times in the media this year"
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Originally Posted by Xcelratr View Post
I haven't seen anyone ITT blindly back up cops. Have you?

I haven't seen anyone ITT say he "deserved it" because he resisted. Have you?

And like Zell said, can you back up your claim about police brutality? And can you frame it in the context of the overall level of violence in society?

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You know what's on the rise is MOBILE CAMERAS. I expect police brutality to actually drop some because of this. Don't confuse more recorded instances of police brutality with an actual increase in police brutality.
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Originally Posted by M3Inline6 View Post
Bingo!
I didnt say that it was in this thread in particular but most of these threads of police brutality there is always someone who will blindy side with the cop even when there is a video. As far as backing up my claim about police brutality on the rise just turn on the news or search google there are DAILY stories of cops abusing their power or shooting someones dog that was in a fenced yard because it "looked aggressive" etc etc its a DAILY event. Go follow the FB page "CopBlock" and you can see all of the stories on there. The public opionon of police is negative. They are simly revenue generators at this point sadly. "Not all cops are bad" but yet the "good" cops will just sit there while his partner beats the sh!t out of someone for no reason and then the argument to justify their actions "its a very difficult job". Thats no excuse. And your arugment about police brutality isnt on the rise but mobile cameras then thats even worse because then your saying its been this bad for a while but people are finally getting evidence to show. I dont have a negative attitude towards ALL police and i do respect the ones that do their job the right way i even have some good friends that are police officers but you cant argue at the fact that there are a lot of bad stories popping up more and more showing all the bad apples that are out there.

This is just posted from today and you wonder why people have such a negative attitude towards police.


http://livefreelivenatural.com/pregn...grilling-meat/

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/chi...e-turn-signal/

http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/a...town-illinois/

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/sur...lizing-person/
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wat?? guys with turbo M3's don't have woman troubles...

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Old 07-29-2014, 04:12 AM   #152
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Another over reaction/harassment by cops lead to dead

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I didnt say that it was in this thread in particular but most of these threads of police brutality there is always someone who will blindy side with the cop even when there is a video. As far as backing up my claim about police brutality on the rise just turn on the news or search google there are DAILY stories of cops abusing their power or shooting someones dog that was in a fenced yard because it "looked aggressive" etc etc its a DAILY event. Go follow the FB page "CopBlock" and you can see all of the stories on there. The public opionon of police is negative. They are simly revenue generators and thats simple as that. "Not all cops are bad" but yet the "good" cops will just sit there while his partner beats the sh!t out of someone for no reason and then the argument to justify their actions "its a very difficult job". Thats no excuse. And your arugment about police brutality isnt on the rise but mobile cameras then thats even worse because then your saying its been this bad for a while but people are finally getting evidence to show.



This is just posted from today and you wonder why people have such a negative attitude towards police.





http://livefreelivenatural.com/pregn...grilling-meat/



http://thefreethoughtproject.com/chi...e-turn-signal/



http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/a...town-illinois/



http://thefreethoughtproject.com/sur...lizing-person/

There's nothing that a reporter or some 3rd party offering a bunch of anecdotal evidence can tell me about a job that I do daily. Everything is exaggerated for the sensationalism of it all. There are definitely bad apples (...and sometimes video exposes those examples ), but they are the small minority.


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Old 07-29-2014, 04:15 AM   #153
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There's nothing that a reporter or some 3rd party offering a bunch of anecdotal evidence can tell me about a job that I do daily. Everything is exaggerated for the sensationalism of it all. There are definitely bad apples, but they are the small minority.


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How can you just dismiss stories like that so quickly? I dont understand its like the majority of police have the attitude that its US vs THEM. Not everyone is a criminal we are all human and just because someone wears a badge doesnt mean that they can never make a mistake you know? We are all human!
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Old 07-29-2014, 04:21 AM   #154
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Another over reaction/harassment by cops lead to dead

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How can you just dismiss stories like that so quickly? I dont understand its like the majority of police have the attitude that its US vs THEM. Not everyone is a criminal we are all human and just because someone wears a badge doesnt mean that they can never make a mistake you know? We are all human!

What did I dismiss exactly? I made a general statement in response to what you posted, not this video specifically. I also conceded that there are some bad individuals wearing a badge. With that said, I also know that hundreds......thousands of police contacts occur daily without a problem. The way some of you act on this forum you'd think that this type of thing occurs all of the time. It doesn't.


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Old 07-29-2014, 11:47 AM   #155
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That's an awful lot of words to miss my point.

You're trying to argue that the common use of a phrase is not technically correct from a medical professional's use. It's irrelevant.

Back to the original point:

You say "If you can talk, you can breath" but in the next sentence, you admit the language of the manual defines choke as "prevent or hinder breathing or reduce intake of air".

So again, if someone says "he's choking!" or "he can't breath!", many times in a panicked situation, the lay person is referring to a state of "hindered breathing or a reduced intake of air". Basically how you just stated they defined "choke".

No where did I say the distinction is unimportant. I'm saying it's irrelevant to your point - "If you can talk, you can breathe". Talking rules out complete inability to breathe. It doesn't rule out "hinder breathing or reduce intake of air". Therefore, irrelevant.

The only reason I commented was because you took the colloquial phrase "he couldn't breath" and then interpreted it as the "technically correct definition" to accomplish some kind of Pyrrhic victory that still demonstrates that you're wrong.
No. Read the entire thread. If you still have questions, let me know.

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I didnt say that it was in this thread in particular but most of these threads of police brutality there is always someone who will blindy side with the cop even when there is a video
There are just as many or more someones that blindly side against the cop, even with incomplete, filtered and sensationalized "facts" available. Are you equally as critical of those posters?

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As far as backing up my claim about police brutality on the rise just turn on the news or search google there are DAILY stories of cops abusing their power or shooting someones dog that was in a fenced yard because it "looked aggressive" etc etc its a DAILY event. Go follow the FB page "CopBlock" and you can see all of the stories on there. The public opionon of police is negative. They are simly revenue generators at this point sadly. "Not all cops are bad" but yet the "good" cops will just sit there while his partner beats the sh!t out of someone for no reason and then the argument to justify their actions "its a very difficult job". Thats no excuse. And your arugment about police brutality isnt on the rise but mobile cameras then thats even worse because then your saying its been this bad for a while but people are finally getting evidence to show. I dont have a negative attitude towards ALL police and i do respect the ones that do their job the right way i even have some good friends that are police officers but you cant argue at the fact that there are a lot of bad stories popping up more and more showing all the bad apples that are out there.
So your answer is no, you can't back up your claim with anything except analogous examples, and even those are sketchy.

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Seriously?

I only read the first one, because it's such crap reporting that if the rest are the same way, they're not worth my time.

But let's look at the first one. Can you tell by the headline that the article is a POS? Did the woman really get put in a chokehold for grilling meat? Or (if she got put in a chokehold at all) did she get put in a chokehold because she was fighting with cops, refusing to cooperate, resisting arrest, etc?

What happened? Police reported to the scene and found someone with their grill set up on a public sidewalk. I'm going to assume that's some minor violation of a city ordinance or fire code or public nuisance or similar, but I don't know for sure. The situation ended with 3 people arrested for obstruction and resisting. What happened in between? What caused "the scuffle" that the article so deftly glosses over?

Maybe you're of the mindset that everything cops do is wrong, and every time a cop gets into a physical confrontation, it's the cop's fault. If so, you're a lost cause.

But if not, can you envision a scenario where the cops told the family they had to get the grill off the sidewalk, the family started arguing and refusing and claiming that their taxes pay for the sidewalk and the cops salary and they'll damn well use it as they see fit and why are you cops always giving us a hard time and get off my lawn this is private property and I refuse to be oppressed any longer and and things got physical?

Or is that scenario simply impossible in your mind? The POS article you posted certainly doesn't contain enough facts to tell us how it happened.
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Old 07-29-2014, 12:37 PM   #156
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I find it really sad how some of these people who blindly back up cops that are clearly out of line and have the "he resisted he deserved it" type of attitude. Just wait till something happens to you or your friends/family and id love to hear your opionion then. Police brutality is on a major rise in the last few years.
My family and I obey the law and don't completely ignore or disobey orders from a LEO.

The amount of asshat's trying to make a name for themselves on youtube is also on the rise. READ: The same folks who never want to get a real job
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Old 07-29-2014, 01:10 PM   #157
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And your arugment about police brutality isnt on the rise but mobile cameras then thats even worse because then your saying its been this bad for a while but people are finally getting evidence to show

...

you cant argue at the fact that there are a lot of bad stories popping up more and more showing all the bad apples that are out there.
That's exactly what I'm saying. Police brutality has always been at least as bad as it is now. Have you not seen videos from the civil rights movement? Imagine if people had cell phone cameras in that day. There'd be multiple videos of black people being beaten over absolutely nothing every day. If this was the 60s, the black guy in the OP video would have been beaten to death. I know he still died, but back then, it would've been absolutely deliberate. And nobody would've been any the wiser about what happened because all the cops would've testified against the black dude.

Yes, more stories are popping up. It's becoming a hot issue. This is a good thing! First, a higher percentage of instances are being filmed, and now that it's easy to get publicity and it's a hot issue, a higher percentage of instances are being fully reported on.
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Old 07-29-2014, 02:20 PM   #158
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No. Read the entire thread. If you still have questions, let me know.
Cliff notes:
-People brought up the issue of choking.
-You made the comment "If you can talk, you can breathe", which is irrelevant given the definition of choking you quoted.
-I pointed it out.

What else in the "entire thread" do you feel is relevant to that?


You tried to imply that breathing is binary. You can breathe or you can't. If you can talk, you can breathe and therefore are fine. That's bs.

The article I linked (if you bothered to look at it) showed the incident where a young girl texted her father in the other room "I can't breathe". She was having an asthma attack. He rushed to her, at which point she gasped out some final words and then her heart gave out from lack of sufficient o2.

TECHNICALLY - yes, she could breathe but she still died. This is what I took issue to. Your seemingly glib statement "If you can talk, you can breathe".
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Old 07-29-2014, 04:25 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Xcelratr View Post
It's not that simple.

How about someone that doesn't break the law and just runs into a cop that's having a bad day?

Yes, lots of people that are subjected to excessive force play a pretty big part in causing the situation.

But to pretend like all you have to do is never break the law, or never resist arrest if you do and you'll never have to deal with a bad cop is pretty naive.
What are the odds of just "running into" a cop having a bad day? Do you mean actually colliding with bad cop or do you mean you're the only car on the road where he set up a speed trap and you weren't speeding yet he pulled you over anyway?

If i thought it was that simple i would have only posted that single statement. My point was that these incidents are likely far fewer than they appear due to accessibility to the videos and media coverage. Cops are people, they will have bad days. This is something we will always deal with until we have non-human cops.

The best way to avoid being the victim of excessive police force is to not break the law. And because that is the only control you have with regards to avoiding the situation, it turns out that it is fairly simple.
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Old 07-29-2014, 04:27 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devious21 View Post
Cliff notes:
-People brought up the issue of choking.
-You made the comment "If you can talk, you can breathe", which is irrelevant given the definition of choking you quoted.
-I pointed it out.

What else in the "entire thread" do you feel is relevant to that?

You tried to imply that breathing is binary. You can breathe or you can't. If you can talk, you can breathe and therefore are fine. That's bs.
Previously, you changed your example when your first one was shown to be useless. Now you're trying to embellish my statements in hopes that when the embellishment doesn't sound correct, the entire statement will be called into question.

I never said "if you can talk, you can breathe, and therefore are fine". Plenty of people can breathe, but are a long damn way from being fine. Someone that's having a heart attack may FEEL like they can't breathe, and TELL you they can't breathe. But the reality is they can breathe, it just feels extremely difficult to them because of the intense chest pain from the dying heart muscle. You go right ahead and focus on their perceived breathing issue if you want, but you're dealing with the wrong problem. I'm not aware of anyone that had a heart attack and died of suffocation as a result.

If you can talk, you can breathe. Unless something changes, you will not die from not breathing. Because you ARE breathing. No matter how it feels, no matter what 99% of people want to tell you, no matter what a policy manual somewhere says.

So to bring it back full circle, if someone can breathe well enough to talk, are they truly being choked?

It's a very subjective question. Standing too close to someone can make them feel like their breathing is being hindered, or their intake of air is being reduced. Is that enough? Should NYPD not take suspects into crowded elevators because the bodies pressing on each other hinders breathing and reduces intake of air?

Or should we deal with it from an objective, factual point of view? Is breathing only to be considered hindered or air intake considered reduced when it reaches a biologically relevant level?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devious21 View Post
The article I linked (if you bothered to look at it) showed the incident where a young girl texted her father in the other room "I can't breathe". She was having an asthma attack. He rushed to her, at which point she gasped out some final words and then her heart gave out from lack of sufficient o2.

TECHNICALLY - yes, she could breathe but she still died. This is what I took issue to. Your seemingly glib statement "If you can talk, you can breathe".
Why did the girl in the article text her dad instead of yelling 7 times out loud that she couldn't breathe?
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