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Old 12-30-2003, 08:36 PM   #1
mthreebmw
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Ne1 move the tweeters to a better position?

I hate how the tweeters are shooting directly sideways...on my m3 at least. anyone move these custom to fit on the triangle in the front side of the windows?
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Old 12-31-2003, 11:33 AM   #2
barbus
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have you ever considered placing them in A-pilar ? (i had my in that triangle and wasn't very satisfied)
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Old 01-01-2004, 11:50 AM   #3
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I am going with a 2 way component set and placing them in the factory mids location. This way they can be better aimed and set up for improved staging. Probably the best way to handle (but I am not doing so b/c I want complete stock look inside the cabin the trunk will be a different story) is to place them down near the kick panels with a custom "pod". This would provide for equal spacing to the listening area.
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Old 01-01-2004, 03:34 PM   #4
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is to place them down near the kick panels with a custom "pod".
i can't agree with you.
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Old 01-01-2004, 08:02 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by barbus


i can't agree with you.
It worked great in my Honda. We played with several placements and this allowed the distance to driver ears to be within 2" of center.....a goal for balanced staging. YMMV though
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Old 01-02-2004, 06:30 AM   #6
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ok balanced , but from ur legs ... and we don't want that
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Old 01-02-2004, 06:32 AM   #7
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...and there's time correction still
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Old 01-02-2004, 06:34 AM   #8
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mthreebmw

i guess u've seen it before
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Old 01-03-2004, 12:47 AM   #9
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kick panels are the best locations for mids and tweeters. frequency response suffers greatly when placed off axis. if you look at all the top sq competitors, you will notice almost all setups are in kick panels. as someone said earlier, path lengths are closer and you get better freq response, the only negative is a slight rainbow affect. with a good setup it is not noticeable.
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Old 01-03-2004, 05:28 AM   #10
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Quote:
if you look at all the top sq competitors, you will notice almost all setups are in kick panels.
in U.S. of course


Quote:
kick panels are the best locations for mids and tweeters
why do you want your stage so low ? have you ever heard mids playing from dash and tweets from a-pilar ?

Quote:
path lengths are closer and you get better freq response
if you're talking about long wave i can admit but not the highs (in the car of course)
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Old 01-03-2004, 02:22 PM   #11
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why do you want your stage so low ? have you ever heard mids playing from dash and tweets from a-pilar ?
a low stage is due to bad tuning. most competitors have an almost perfect stage, and they have both the mids and highs in kicks. I have heard mids and tweets up high together, it sounds alright when set up properly but you cannot put the mid up high in an e46 because of space and the head airbags. you need a good reference to understand what I am talking about. if you listen to any high end home audio equipment you will notice pathlengths are the same for mids and tweets and that you sit far from the speakers. in a car, mounting the tweets up high and the mids in the doors yields poor imaging and bad freq response. it is far less smooth.

Quote:
if you're talking about long wave i can admit but not the highs (in the car of course)
have you ever looked at freq response graphs for tweeters?
most tweeters will start rolling off after 10k if placed even 15 degrees off axis. they will dramatically roll off past 10k if placed 30 or 60 degrees off axis. usually in a pillar mounting this seem to be the case. even if placed on axis, it will be too in your face. time alignment is good and all, but it takes away from the smoothness and refinement of a pure sq system.
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Old 01-04-2004, 04:20 PM   #12
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Quote:
but you cannot put the mid up high in an e46 because of space and the head airbags
In that case your're wrong.I'll post pictures soon

Quote:
a low stage is due to bad tuning (...)

you need a good reference to understand what I am talking about (...)

in a car, mounting the tweets up high and the mids in the doors yields poor imaging and bad freq response. it is far less smooth
I know tuning of a system take biggest amount of time.
I've heard many sq competitors and can not agree with two sentences above (example: VW Beetle - wide ,long dash. Have you heard that car playing mids and highs from dash ?) There's so many different constructions and saying that is senseless.



Quote:
have you ever looked at freq response graphs for tweeters?
I did
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Old 01-04-2004, 04:23 PM   #13
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Quote:
I have heard mids and tweets up high together, it sounds alright when set up properly
Sorry, i back my words :
Quote:
(example: VW Beetle - wide ,long dash. Have you heard that car playing mids and highs from dash ?)
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Old 01-04-2004, 05:02 PM   #14
learthworml
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I know tuning of a system take biggest amount of time.
I've heard many sq competitors and can not agree with two sentences above (example: VW Beetle - wide ,long dash. Have you heard that car playing mids and highs from dash ?) There's so many different constructions and saying that is senseless.
That is a Bettle though and the mid is right next to the tweeter, and they have huge flat long and wide dashes. I thought we were talking about mounting in the A pillars for the tweeters and mids in the doors for an e46? The guy wanted to know where to mount his tweeters, he isnt gonna spend 5k on an install to cut the dash of his 40k car to put mids in it. Your example of that VW is exactly my point. The tweeters are far from the driver and on axis. In A pillars they are usually close to the driver and mounted off axis, even if mounted on axis it is usually to harsh and too far from the mid to yield good imaging. As far as soundstage height, like I said if tuned correctly it can be just as high and imaging can be pin point, dealing with less window reflections. I mean tonality is most important and is by far smoother in kicks far from the driver 15 degrees or so off axis. E46's have deep kick panel areas too, which is ideal. I mean when you are driving, do you really sit there and listen and say "hmm I think the left and right side of my stage is a few inches too low"?
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Old 01-04-2004, 05:26 PM   #15
barbus
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VW was example for placing mids and tweets higher than kick panels and tonality is same with or without passenger.

By the way what do you mean by "on axis" - symmetrically ? Tests prooved "better" sound stage with highs asymmetrically to the car (not always)

Quote:
The guy wanted to know where to mount his tweeters, he isnt gonna spend 5k on an install to cut the dash of his 40k car to put mids in it
Most of 40k car owners doesn't hate tweeters hiting sideways. He's bought M (no compromises) for his own satisfaction and wanted to know how to make sound less annoying. How can you tell he is not going to do anything like that ?
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Old 01-04-2004, 07:23 PM   #16
learthworml
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on axis. means 0 degrees pointing away from the listener, directly pointing to them.
that is why i said in the a pillars it is not on axis in most cases and if it is, it is oftem to harsh for the listener even with time alignment. if using a second tweeter from 6k and up to raise the soundstage, A pillars are fine often, but for the main tweeter you want it close as possible to the mid and on axis with equal path lengths.



Quote:
Most of 40k car owners doesn't hate tweeters hiting sideways. He's bought M (no compromises) for his own satisfaction and wanted to know how to make sound less annoying. How can you tell he is not going to do anything like that ?
Exactly. That is why a kick panel is the best idea for an e46. Tweeters can be placed on axis, or a little off, maybe 15 degrees. He bought an M and wants no compromises, but if he is asking a simple question like that, I am sure he is no sq pro and jsut wants something thats sounds good.

Look at the dash of an e46, the tach console will kill have the sound in an install like that even in that install in the VW, I do not see that being a true SQ system. How many top end home systems have a center channel? Audiophile home systems are almost always 2 speaker stereo systems. Do you see a center channel in B&W 15k speakers or focal grand utopia 75k speakers or better yet 300k electrostatic speakers. If you are going to argue at least state some facts to prove your point. You agree a home stereo or live reporduction of music is the best SQ you can achieve, correct? Mounting speakers firing at a window and having a center channel with imaging for both the passanger and driver is far from home or live reproduction of music. Kick panels or a huge car with both the tweeter and mids mounted up top faced on axis are the closest possible you can achieve to home stereos. As far as an e46 is concerned, the dash and head airbags prevent any mounting up top, therefore kicks are the best place to place tweeters. If you have any e46 with pics of an install with both the mid and speaker up top along with some IASCA first place tropies then I will gladly agree. Last season most of the competitors with e46's and x5's I saw won with kick panel or door installs.
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Old 01-05-2004, 04:32 PM   #17
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i'm not going to argue here. All i'm saying it is not impossible to win SQ trophies "my" way.


Quote:
the tach console will kill have the sound in an install like that
there's nothing more true !! (so please wait for pics of tuned e-46 dash)


Quote:
Mounting speakers firing at a window and having a center channel with imaging for both the passanger and driver is far from home or live reproduction of music.
That car took first place in europe finals (2002) in SQ EXPERT UNLIMITED but i must agree i've heard better ones (mids on dash and tweets in a-pillar).
ohhh , and central was only used to play car theatre (we only used f1 components in that VW by the way)


Quote:
Do you see a center channel in B&W 15k speakers or focal grand utopia 75k speakers or better yet 300k electrostatic speakers
Do you see a tweeter placed as close as possible to floor
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Old 01-05-2004, 06:40 PM   #18
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e-46 - first place in sq eurofinals :

mid and highs:

doors:
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Old 01-05-2004, 07:13 PM   #19
learthworml
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Ya, that you lose your head airbags though. It might have taken first place, but I still think those comps are slightly biased to install and looks. I have heard cars that sound better than sq champs that don't win as much, because its not a super extravagant or nice install.

Quote:
Do you see a tweeter placed as close as possible to floor
No I dont, but i see very simialar pathlengths to the mids. On the floor it is not like they would be aimed at the ground or straight out, they would be pointing up at an angle giving a nice high soundstage. The mids and tweeters are also on axis in a home system, unlike the setups you have posted with the mid pointing to the winshield. You are rigth it is possible to win sq trophies ur way, but in an e46 with head airbags and deep kick panel areas I think mounting a tweeter down in the kick panel are next to a nice mid would be better. It gives a nice deep stage with awsome freq response. I just dont think it is as smooth with the mid firing at the windshield. Might give an awsome soundstage, but I prefer the tonality to be smooth and convincing.

I guess its a matter of preference, either way tuning is the main determinant of a good sounding system. I was just arguing that it would be better because of the envioronment of an e46. BTW it looks like your dash is coming along nice, id like to see it when its done. I'm doing an install right now with my supremes and lotus mids, not going all out though. I'm just making some kicks myself since I am going to trade my car in for an m3 in 6 months. Then I will do a full custom install.
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