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Old 05-29-2004, 10:10 AM   #61
cary1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jk330i
I'm clueless on the type of oils out there, but is this the same as the one BMW sells?

So is the one BMW sells a BMW - Castrol Synthetic 5W-30 oil?
No, BMW's oil has a beefier additive package to try and help the oil survive 15k intervals. IF you plan on keeping your car, change at 7500 miles.

Cary
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Old 05-29-2004, 10:16 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtt777
Cary,


Also i think you were concerned about the weights of the oil. The company cannot brand the oil at a 5W-30 unless it meets certain viscosity ranges. I highly doubt your going to experience substantial engine wear if you are 2 cst off of the BMW target but you have a great additive package (which mobil 1 does). Its the additives that do all the protection.

-Jeff
Really, the additives do all the protection!!! Then why don't we all run 0w-10 oils to improve fuel economy? Then why don't all manufactures use the thinest oil they can get to improve their CAFE standards? Because the thickness of the oil plays a vital role in engine protection. You may work in the industry, but you are obviously not an engineer or involved in certification process.

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Old 05-29-2004, 10:18 AM   #63
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Am I the only one that's ripping pissed that BMW goes out of their way to make sure you DON'T change the oil between service intervals? It's one thing that they are wrong about how long their oil lasts... but to discourage you from doing extra... ugh.
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Old 05-29-2004, 11:49 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelBlueXI
Am I the only one that's ripping pissed that BMW goes out of their way to make sure you DON'T change the oil between service intervals? It's one thing that they are wrong about how long their oil lasts... but to discourage you from doing extra... ugh.
I'm not pissed, just a little dissapointed. Although their response makes sense from BMW's point of view. Consider consumer response if BMW dealership representatives say things that directly conflict with BMW corporate recommendations. I feel pretty confident there were a number of discussions with all involved parties to present a unified front.
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Old 05-29-2004, 11:59 AM   #65
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Cary,

chill out, im actually a chemical engineer and am involved in the manufacture of these additives. when i mean additives to the protection im talking about a base stock itself wont last at all. if you dont have dispersants to suspend soot, detergents to neutralize acids, zddps for anti wear, LOFIs for cold flow your oil will suck. this is what i mean, and of course if you run some 0W-10 oil it isnt going to provide adequate protection at high temperatures its too thin. i never said it would and sorry you mis-interpreted it as that. (i didn't think a phd would) the viscosity wont be good enough for a car requring a higher weight. do you know what lets you have multigrade oils??? additives! there are viscosity modifiers put into engine oils that allow performace across a wide range of temperatures so you can rate something as a multigrade oil.

I'm not involved in the certification process but i do learn a few thing being in the industry and honestly you are reading into these requirements just a bit too far and complicating and issues that needs not be so complex. at least i think so.


-Jeff


Quote:
Originally Posted by cary1
Really, the additives do all the protection!!! Then why don't we all run 0w-10 oils to improve fuel economy? Then why don't all manufactures use the thinest oil they can get to improve their CAFE standards? Because the thickness of the oil plays a vital role in engine protection. You may work in the industry, but you are obviously not an engineer or involved in certification process.

Cary
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Old 05-29-2004, 12:06 PM   #66
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So, after reading everything posted I'm still not sure what's better to use .
I am using oils that dealer here offers and plan to do that in future, the problem is they offer different oils and can't tell me what's best to use though. They have 5w-30, 5w-40 and sometimes 0w-30. All bottles are marked like "high perfomance bmw original oil etc". From what I've read here it's best to use 5w30/0w30 in summer and 5w-40 in winter(temperatures can drop to -31..-32C during winter). Am I right here?
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Old 05-29-2004, 12:35 PM   #67
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You people have me so paranoid that I just went out and changed my oil filter. On a side note, drop in oil filters rule. Very smart design. I really need to organize my tools better though. It took me a half hour to find my little torque wrench.
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Old 05-29-2004, 08:19 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtt777
Cary,

chill out, im actually a chemical engineer and am involved in the manufacture of these additives. when i mean additives to the protection im talking about a base stock itself wont last at all. if you dont have dispersants to suspend soot, detergents to neutralize acids, zddps for anti wear, LOFIs for cold flow your oil will suck. this is what i mean, and of course if you run some 0W-10 oil it isnt going to provide adequate protection at high temperatures its too thin. i never said it would and sorry you mis-interpreted it as that. (i didn't think a phd would) the viscosity wont be good enough for a car requring a higher weight. do you know what lets you have multigrade oils??? additives! there are viscosity modifiers put into engine oils that allow performace across a wide range of temperatures so you can rate something as a multigrade oil.

I'm not involved in the certification process but i do learn a few thing being in the industry and honestly you are reading into these requirements just a bit too far and complicating and issues that needs not be so complex. at least i think so.


-Jeff
Jeff,

You made the cart blanc statement that the additives provide the protection. I pointed out that that is not true. As far as multigrade oils, as you are well aware, Synthetics (group III, IV & V) are all naturally mutigrade and depending on the weight need from none to moderate amounts of VI improvers and pour point depresants. In the case of Mobil 1 is is generally accepted that the 10w-30 does not have VI improvers and Redline has stated flat out that their oils, with the exception of the 5w-40 do not use VI improvers or pour point depresants.

As far as making the topic complicated, I believe I made it pretty simple. If you look at my original post I said:

1) Use an A3 rated oil, which the BMW 5w-30 is.
2) Look for a BMW LL-98 or 01 oil.
3) Noted that Mobil 1 in the 30 weight grades meet neither of these standards.
4) Noted that Mobil 1 0w-40 meets both.

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Old 05-29-2004, 09:00 PM   #69
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Need some friction inhibitor between Jeff and Cary1

They're slapping each other with their credentials, but let's hope it doesn't go down the slipperly slope to full-scale War over Oil.

I can't bear to watch....
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Old 05-29-2004, 10:39 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkipII
They're slapping each other with their credentials, but let's hope it doesn't go down the slipperly slope to full-scale War over Oil.

I can't bear to watch....

I am no subject expert in oil analysis. However, what I do have is real world experience.

I have a 2000 323i. I currently have about 62,000 miles on my 2K e46 bimmer. During the lifetime of my bimmer, I have only use mobile 1 Ow40.
I have not encounter any problems so far. In matter of fact, I sent in my oil for an oil analysis and it checked out fine.

Regardless of whether X brand Oil and Y grade oil is better, all I know is that the BMW recommended oil interval change (15,000 miles) is BOGUS!!!!!!!!!!
This is purely a marketting glimic to make BMW looks more reliable. It doesn't hurt your car if you change your oil an/or oil filter every 3-7,000 miles.

For those people that ONLY change their oil at every 15,000 miles, I think you need to use a little of common sense and/or knowledge. With regards to the oil change recommendation, you shouldn't follow your service manual recommendation that religiously.
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Old 05-30-2004, 01:20 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cary1
Give me a break. I'm sorry that I am not up to date on all the latest BMW TSB's concerning their changing recommendations for M car motor oil. I would be willing to bet that if you went to your dealer, their service techs would not be either, and they have the information at a touch of a button.

Frankly, I took the time to post the information to bring some FACTUAL information to the group in an area where there is a lot of speculation, innacurate information, and speculation floating around. I don't notice that you have gone out and done the research and offered up any solid information on the subject!!! Instead you have chosen to take a caveat and note that since I don't have the most up to date TSB's in hand cast the dispersion that all my information must be innacurate. Childish.

Cary
10W60 has been required on the M3 since June of 2001. Not exactly new information.

My point was that if you're going to be so bold as to proclaim (in your thread title, no less) that you are presenting us with ACCURATE information...it's not a good sign when item #1 is INACCURATE.
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Old 05-30-2004, 09:00 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atyclb
10W60 has been required on the M3 since June of 2001. Not exactly new information.

My point was that if you're going to be so bold as to proclaim (in your thread title, no less) that you are presenting us with ACCURATE information...it's not a good sign when item #1 is INACCURATE.

To clarify what I meant, my information was only applicable to those vehicles not calling for the 10w-60. A comment. I went and looked at some of your posts. The majority of them appear to be this exact type of thing, sitting and looking for a statement that may be in the slightest way innacurate and then jumping up and saying, look at me, I know more than the poster. Usually a sign of insecurity. Once again, as I did before, I challange you to produce some better information. How about contributing rather than simple playing armchair quarterback?!!!

To everyone else, I've spent enough time on the subject. Take the information for what it is worth, personally I am a pretty anal person and spent a great deal of time before coming up the information presented. I try to be as non-baised as possible and my ideas are based in fact, not speculation. If you really want to find out more, go to bobistheoilguy.com and have at it. There is a enough information and intelligent debate to keep a person busy for months.

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Old 05-30-2004, 09:01 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkipII
They're slapping each other with their credentials, but let's hope it doesn't go down the slipperly slope to full-scale War over Oil.

I can't bear to watch....
KY jelly would work. No slapping over credentials, as I have stated, I am not a pretroleum engineer and do not work in the field.

Cary
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Old 05-30-2004, 01:38 PM   #74
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Accurate?

"The wide viscosity range oils, in general, are more prone to viscosity and thermal breakdown due to the high polymer content. It is the oil that lubricates, not the additives. Oils that can do their job with the fewest additives are the best."

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question164.htm
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Old 05-30-2004, 04:23 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cary1
A comment. I went and looked at some of your posts. The majority of them appear to be this exact type of thing, sitting and looking for a statement that may be in the slightest way innacurate and then jumping up and saying, look at me, I know more than the poster. Usually a sign of insecurity. Once again, as I did before, I challange you to produce some better information. How about contributing rather than simple playing armchair quarterback?!!!
you misspelled inaccurate

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Old 05-30-2004, 05:19 PM   #76
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Old 05-31-2004, 02:07 PM   #77
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Hello Everyone,

I'm new to this forum and I would like to know the alternatives to the 10W-60 Castrol Synthetic for our 2001 M3. Would Mobil 1 15W-50 be appropriate in Southern California heat? I have used the same oil on my TT RX7 for 108K miles.

The reason I ask is that I work on my own cars and don't really trust the dealership. I only take it to the dealer if I can't or don't know how to fix something (usually electrical ).

On a side note, there is a sticker on the inlet for the intake that says to use 10W-60, but there was another sticker underneath it that said to use 5W-30. I'm assuming that changed sometime when it was brought to the dealer for an oil change.

Thanks,

Attila
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Old 06-01-2004, 05:07 PM   #78
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Chill Cary my man. The other guy was simply discussing the points from where I sit and read.

When was the last time you heard someone say, "My engine blew up because I used the same oil for 15k miles."?
Modern oils are so good and engine building is so good that YES WE CAN run with longer drain intervals easily. I'm glad people have finally realized that the marketing driven hype of "change your oil at 3000 miles" is simply non sense.

Now as far as BMW doing oil changes at 15k miles, well, my 325i didn't make it to 15k. The computer is asking for an oil change a bit under 13,500.
I too think that over 10k may be a bit much but I'm going to go with the BMW engineers on this one considering that they are willing to warranty and stand behind their recommendations. There are plenty of "BMW certified" cars out there with 100,000 miles of engine coverage with very long oil change intervals. BMW must have surely done some research in order to go with that. Afterall, BMW engines are not known for lack of longevity.

Another important aspect to why BMW can go longer is their heavy use of oil.
My 2.5 litre engine has about a 7 quart oil capacity and uses a fairly large sized oil filter. That is a lot of oil for such modest engine displacement. But, it sure does keep things nicely lubed and cool. In comparison, my former Mits 3.0 V6 was around 5-6 quarts. Plus, BMW uses synthetic.
So, large oil capacity, large oil filter, synthetic oil, nicely sealed air intake with good air filtering...
It adds up to longer drain intervals. Dusty environments do contribute to needing shorter oil change intervals due to contamination from blow by in the combustion chamber. Also, those who drive short distances to work where condensation builds up in the engine/oil and doesn't get hot enough for long enough to burn off the contanmination created by the combustion process, they too need shorter oil change intervals. If you're running an aftermarket intake system without the air box, then you may need to change your oil sooner as well due to potentially increased air contamination in your combustion chamber.

The "additive" package is VERY important in the real world and to your engine.
The better brands do offer better additives that keep your engine innards running smoother, cooler, longer. Just like with gasoline quality, oil quality is dependent on it's additives as well. "Racing oils" having different additives as they are for a different application with different demands.

I agree that anyone truly wanting to know how their oil holds up to how and where they drive should have their oil analyzed. That will give you a better indication of how often you should change your oil without dumping money, time, and effort down the drain. Don't quote me, but doesn't Pep Boys, and Autozone offer this service for a reasonable cost?

My oil change (1st one) is this Saturday and I'm a bit over 13,500 miles.
I'm holding BMW to their word.
Normally I do my own oil changes as that way I know it's down right, with no leaks, not over or under filled, and my engine bay doesn't smoke for 2 days.
But, part of the cost to owing a BMW is the "free" maintenance. Since I'm paying for it already, I'll let them do it for me.

TT
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Old 06-01-2004, 05:38 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atihun
Hello Everyone,

I'm new to this forum and I would like to know the alternatives to the 10W-60 Castrol Synthetic for our 2001 M3. Would Mobil 1 15W-50 be appropriate in Southern California heat? I have used the same oil on my TT RX7 for 108K miles.

The reason I ask is that I work on my own cars and don't really trust the dealership. I only take it to the dealer if I can't or don't know how to fix something (usually electrical ).

On a side note, there is a sticker on the inlet for the intake that says to use 10W-60, but there was another sticker underneath it that said to use 5W-30. I'm assuming that changed sometime when it was brought to the dealer for an oil change.

Thanks,

Attila
acceptable alternative oil viscosities are listed in your owner's manual. but these are only acceptable in emergencies, for topping off, etc.

10w60 is the only oil you should use

the 10w60 requirement went into effect in June 2001
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Old 06-01-2004, 06:40 PM   #80
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immho, I think what cary did in his research and findings should be commended and not flamed; I've learned a lot from this thread, and I think the man deserves a lot of credit for taking the effort to bring forward such a great discussion. I think that's what a major part of this forum is for, and I truly truly hope cary won't be a bit discouraged by what other jesters say and continue to post his interesting topics.
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