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Old 12-13-2004, 08:25 AM   #1
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Competition people: Front speakers phasing?

I am tweaking my system right now. I have a set of Bostons Z6's (2-way) in custom kicks. I am playing with phasing to optimize imaging and staging. The tweeters had the + and - labeled backwards (as confirmed by my phase tester and ears). The setup that seems to sound best is left tweeter out of phase and subs out of phase (I have rear-firing subs).

I know that different brands/models of speakers have different off/on axis response, but I was just curious to find out what other people have done in respect to phasing in either kick panel or door setups.
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Old 12-13-2004, 10:01 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ca1242
I am tweaking my system right now. I have a set of Bostons Z6's (2-way) in custom kicks. I am playing with phasing to optimize imaging and staging. The tweeters had the + and - labeled backwards (as confirmed by my phase tester and ears). The setup that seems to sound best is left tweeter out of phase and subs out of phase (I have rear-firing subs).

I know that different brands/models of speakers have different off/on axis response, but I was just curious to find out what other people have done in respect to phasing in either kick panel or door setups.
In my old car with horns and mids in the doors I got a much stronger center with the pass mid out of phase.

According to Matt B @ Image Dynamics - here's how to tune:

1) Set gains
2) Set crossover points
3) Repeat steps 1 and 2 till you get a balance in the system, do not worry about the stage height or if the sub is in front of you or in back of you at this time...
4) Must have at least some good music to listen to. A test disc would be best (NO HIP HOP) My 14 year old son can record better...
5) Listen for the height of the system (is it near eye level or low like mid dash or leg level)
6) flip the phase of both Mids so that they are out of phase with the horns or tweeters. Listen to the system again. You may only need to flip one mid out phase to make this work....Remember to only do one thing at a time and write it down so that you do not repeat a step...
7) Repeat steps 4 through 6 till you get the stage height near eye level
8) Now listen to the sub, If the sub seems to anchor in the back of the can flip the phase on the subs and listen again...
9) Listen to the system and see if your balance is correct repeat step 1 and 2 if needed...
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Old 12-13-2004, 10:35 AM   #3
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Listen, listen and listen to your system. Try to improve your stage like rcurley55 wrote.

REMEMBER, electrical phase is NOT the same as acoustic.
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Old 12-13-2004, 10:37 AM   #4
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when my frontstage is out of phase, it gets pushed way out in front of the dash..sounds really cool actually. i might experiment with that.
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Old 12-13-2004, 12:40 PM   #5
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I think this is the first question that CA142 has asked. But a good one.

I have my pass mid and driver side tweet out of phase. I have DA Hexes as you all probably know by now. And my stage really stinks in the passenger seat but I'm not concerned since I don't drive the car from there.

I don't compete either.

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Old 12-13-2004, 12:47 PM   #6
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I have my subs out of phase. The rest is in phase and I am using time alignment. I found the best results with everything in phase. I just tuned my frequency response flat and then did the rest by ear from there. My stage is pretty deep and high. Some people have had success with wiring their passanger side out of phase. I think time alignment is more accurate than phasing. If you think about it, you are essentially doing the same thing sort of.
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Old 12-13-2004, 03:18 PM   #7
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I'm newbie to car audio so what do you guys mean when you said "flip the phase" "phase out"?

thanks
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Old 12-13-2004, 03:27 PM   #8
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Thanks for all the feedback. I am trying to stay away from time alignment and equalization as much as I can, call me old fashion, but I like to keep processing to a minimum. I was curious as what other people have done, and maybe pick up a couple tips on the way.

As far as listening, it took me a month of listening just to get the kick panel angles right. Another two months to really break in the speakers and adjust crossovers and gains. Now, I am two weeks into phasing.

I should fire up the EQX this week and work on a couple bumps in my freq. response. I have a peak at 150Hz (caused by having the midbases in the kicks, since they are designed for free air. I have been able to reduce the resonance by opening the back cavity, but still need some Eq). I also have a peak at 8KHz, not sure if it is caused by the car or the speakers themselves. I wish I had an RTA, I almost bought an Audiocontrol, but could not justify the expense just to use it every time I buy a new car, so I use the tedious test tone/spl meter method, then my ears to fine tune.
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Old 12-13-2004, 03:31 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by racingheart
I'm newbie to car audio so what do you guys mean when you said "flip the phase" "phase out"?

thanks
It means connecting the + and - terminals of the speakers backwards, that way the speaker is "180 degrees" out of phase (reverse polarity).

It is a trick that even though it sounds like something you don't want to do, it actually helps improve staging, rather than using digital time alignment.
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Old 12-13-2004, 04:06 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by ca1242
Thanks for all the feedback. I am trying to stay away from time alignment and equalization as much as I can, call me old fashion, but I like to keep processing to a minimum. I was curious as what other people have done, and maybe pick up a couple tips on the way.

As far as listening, it took me a month of listening just to get the kick panel angles right. Another two months to really break in the speakers and adjust crossovers and gains. Now, I am two weeks into phasing.

I should fire up the EQX this week and work on a couple bumps in my freq. response. I have a peak at 150Hz (caused by having the midbases in the kicks, since they are designed for free air. I have been able to reduce the resonance by opening the back cavity, but still need some Eq). I also have a peak at 8KHz, not sure if it is caused by the car or the speakers themselves. I wish I had an RTA, I almost bought an Audiocontrol, but could not justify the expense just to use it every time I buy a new car, so I use the tedious test tone/spl meter method, then my ears to fine tune.
Yea, a lot of people don't like time alignment. Good luck with your tuning. If you plan on going to IASCA finals then judging from both seats are important and time alignment is probably a bad thing. For minor competitions and everyday driving you cannot get anything more precise unless you have your speakers exactly equidistant from your ears.
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Old 12-14-2004, 07:04 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by learthworml
Yea, a lot of people don't like time alignment. Good luck with your tuning. If you plan on going to IASCA finals then judging from both seats are important and time alignment is probably a bad thing. For minor competitions and everyday driving you cannot get anything more precise unless you have your speakers exactly equidistant from your ears.
Thanks, I am not into competition, just looking for "perfect sound" in my car. I don't care about the passenger either, only about the driver
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Old 12-14-2004, 03:13 PM   #12
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Thanks, I am not into competition, just looking for "perfect sound" in my car. I don't care about the passenger either, only about the driver
Try time alignment. My friend was really hesistant about it too and would just use phasing. Once he tried time alignment he never looked back I have perfect imaging and staging in my car. I think I scored 9's in imaging and staging last time I competed.
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Old 12-14-2004, 03:21 PM   #13
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we can practice time alignment in my car
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Old 12-14-2004, 03:54 PM   #14
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we can practice time alignment in my car
Face it, we are never finishing with our cars! I guess we can work on our cars after Xmas.
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Old 12-14-2004, 03:58 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by learthworml
Try time alignment. My friend was really hesistant about it too and would just use phasing. Once he tried time alignment he never looked back I have perfect imaging and staging in my car. I think I scored 9's in imaging and staging last time I competed.
I have an old Eclipse 5303R, which has no time alignment, so it is not an option for now. I really like this head unit because it is all about business, no fancy displays, equalizers and other gimmicky functions. I have been thinking about a screen/DVD/navigation unit, but none of them seem to be up to par in the SQ department. Alpine does have high-end stuff to offer, but by the time you get all the components, cost is just too much.
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Old 12-14-2004, 07:07 PM   #16
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I have an old Eclipse 5303R, which has no time alignment, so it is not an option for now. I really like this head unit because it is all about business, no fancy displays, equalizers and other gimmicky functions. I have been thinking about a screen/DVD/navigation unit, but none of them seem to be up to par in the SQ department. Alpine does have high-end stuff to offer, but by the time you get all the components, cost is just too much.
Well in that case try phasing the passenger tweet out of phase. Start with that. Then try the passenger mid out of phase. The only thing about wiring one mid out of phase is you lose midbass. Most people get pretty decent imaging with this.
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Old 12-15-2004, 08:41 AM   #17
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Ca1242-if you have a laptop you can get a 1/3 octave spectrum analyzer for it. It runs $24. Theres a free 30 day trial, see if you like it. Search for RAL at downloads.com.
For the price, its a nice program.
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Old 12-15-2004, 08:50 AM   #18
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Ca1242-if you have a laptop you can get a 1/3 octave spectrum analyzer for it. It runs $24. Theres a free 30 day trial, see if you like it. Search for RAL at downloads.com.
For the price, its a nice program.
That software looks pretty cool. Do you just you a standard microphone for testing?
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Old 12-15-2004, 09:09 AM   #19
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Ca1242-if you have a laptop you can get a 1/3 octave spectrum analyzer for it. It runs $24. Theres a free 30 day trial, see if you like it. Search for RAL at downloads.com.
For the price, its a nice program.
Yup - and there's another one called SpectraPlus. It is more pricey but an older prog, so you may be able to find copies floating around. It works pretty well.

This is an interesting thread - the driver's tweet out of phase sounds promising. In my case, the sub out-of-phase made a huge difference.

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Old 12-15-2004, 01:28 PM   #20
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That software looks pretty cool. Do you just you a standard microphone for testing?
Chris, do you feel like experimenting with your laptop?
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