E46 BMW Social Directory E46 FAQ 3-Series Discussion Forums BMW Photo Gallery BMW 3-Series Technical Information E46 Fanatics - The Ultimate BMW Resource BMW Vendors General E46 Forum The Tire Rack's Tire Wheel Forum Forced Induction Forum The Off-Topic The E46 BMW Showroom For Sale, For Trade or Wanting to Buy

Welcome to the E46Fanatics forums. E46Fanatics is the premiere website for BMW 3 series owners around the world with interactive forums, a geographical enthusiast directory, photo galleries, and technical information for BMW enthusiasts.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Go Back   E46Fanatics > Tuning & Tech > Motorsports & Track Forum by BimmerWorld

Motorsports & Track Forum by BimmerWorld
From Auto-X to Trackday to Racing and Professional Motorsports – this is the place to discuss making BMWs fast
Sponsored by BimmerWorld

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 08-18-2005, 08:16 AM   #21
jmsanders78
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Philly
Posts: 280
My Ride: 328i, Z4
You're right!
jmsanders78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2005, 01:16 PM   #22
chrisho
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: VA
Posts: 31
My Ride: 2005 TiAg M3
don't know if it was mentioned above because i didn't read all the posts too carefully. but if you're changing out your lines, might as well change you brake fluid to a higher temp fluid, i.e. ATE, motul
chrisho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2005, 09:30 PM   #23
gbn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Illinois
Posts: 66
My Ride: 2002 325i
I bought the cyro treated rotors, unslotted. I'm still bedding them in. I'll let you know how they work out. I have an x-cross tomorrow. I'm using Super Blue fluid and already have steel lines. I'm using Axxis Metal Master Pads. I'm not sure if I really like this pad, but I still have lots of pad left and they generate A LOT less dust than OEM.

Regarding BBK's I agree about the force, friction coefficent, heat build-up, rotor size and racing vs. street pad issues. Good point about the brake porportioning. Most BBk's have 4 piston calipers, vs. 2 piston OEM. Other than more even braking force, does anyone know why they do it?
gbn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2005, 10:38 PM   #24
PEI330Ci
58mm of Bliss
 
PEI330Ci's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: PEI,Canada
Posts: 3,962
My Ride: 330i, 330Ci
Brake upgrade

I have a 330Ci with sport package.

When I bought the car new, my OEM rotors lasted me less than 9000 miles. 3000 of those miles were due to moving from one side of the country to the other, and it was driven very easily. The other 6000 miles were less than easy. I said less than 9000 miles, because I really should have changed the rotors sooner. When they eventually came off, they were warped, blue, and had small cracks in the middle of the friction surface. I dreaded using the brake pedal.

I knew I needed something much more robust to handle my driving habits. I ended up getting the ONLY Brembo Gran Tourismo 2 piece rotor kit that fits under stock 17 wheels. (As a side note, the 17" steel wheels that BMW offers for winter tire packages also clear the BBK) The kit includes offset blocks and studs for new 4 piston fixed caliper blocks, braided brake lines, 4 piston calipers, and 2 piece 12.9" rotors.

The most significant feature of the kit is the 2 piece rotors. While not industructable, they offer design features that help to greatly reduce stresses placed on the friction surface from high heat cycles. The friction surface is attached to an aluminum inner "Hat" with 8 pins. These pins fit inside of slots on the aluminum hat that allow the outer rotor to grow in size(from heat expansion) while the pins slid outwards in the slots. These pins are kept pressed onto the aluminum hat with allen head bolts that every second one carries a little plate and rubber pad to help limit vibrations. A 1 piece rotor places the unreleaved stress from the rotor trying to grow under heat into the most malable area of the rotor. That would be right under the pad...and as a result you start to see cracks forming in this area from high heat cycles.

Side by side with a stock rotor, the biggest difference is weight. When you mount the Brembo BBK kit, you will immediately notice more steering feedback, and easier turn in. Above 60 mph the difference is substantial enough to change your corner turn in points from sheer feedback confidence.

The Brembo 4 piston calipers are held in a fixed position over the rotor, where the stock single piston caliper can slid back and forth to stay centered over the rotor under pressure and pad wear down. The difference, is that pressure for the floating caliper is applied to both pads "through" one side. Pressure to the rotor surface isn't uniform due to friction of the "caliper's" floating mechanism.

What all the above boils down to is this. Firmer pedal feel due to the braided lines. More braking power due to the better caliper setup. Increased rotor and pad life due to better rotors.

These brakes can lock the front wheels very easily from over 100 mph, where the stock ones could not until around 80 mph. Modulation is much more progressive, with a lot more control of locking points before ABS engages.

And the biggest benifit to me....

I just changed my first set of outer rotors after more than 50,000 miles of abuse.

Brembos are well engineered and rock solid performers.

Adam
PEI330Ci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2005, 10:38 PM   #25
Mahjik
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 930
My Ride: 2002 BMW M3
Send a message via ICQ to Mahjik Send a message via AIM to Mahjik
Quote:
Originally Posted by gbn
Most BBk's have 4 piston calipers, vs. 2 piston OEM. Other than more even braking force, does anyone know why they do it?
Larger calipers/pads give you more area to spread the heat over... So, in a sense, they can take more heat (from tracking the car hard).

There are cases where even a track pad on a stock caliper won't do. In those cases, adding some air ducting to the veins of the rotor help, as well as using a BBK.

However, first and foremost is to get the right brake compound and go from there.
Mahjik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2005, 10:59 PM   #26
vaio76109
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 8,828
My Ride: Race Cars
Quote:
Originally Posted by pei330ci
When I bought the car new, my OEM rotors lasted me less than 9000 miles. 3000 of those miles were due to moving from one side of the country to the other, and it was driven very easily. The other 6000 miles were less than easy. I said less than 9000 miles, because I really should have changed the rotors sooner. When they eventually came off, they were warped, blue, and had small cracks in the middle of the friction surface. I dreaded using the brake pedal.
How the **** did you manage to do that?
vaio76109 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2005, 01:08 AM   #27
vaio76109
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 8,828
My Ride: Race Cars
Heres a DIY ive been working on: http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...44#post3131244
vaio76109 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2005, 05:02 AM   #28
PEI330Ci
58mm of Bliss
 
PEI330Ci's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: PEI,Canada
Posts: 3,962
My Ride: 330i, 330Ci
"How the **** did you manage to do that?"

Hard driving....lots of 100mph down to 50mph or lower corners. Probably the most damanging thing was that I didn't do very thorough cool down sessions with the brakes after hard driving laps at the track.

I also learned to manage braking a lot better, and to be smoother with the Brembos. I think a lot of times when I first got the car, I was hammering the brakes to correct for a miscalculation or mistake.

Stock brakes would have lasted me a lot longer if it was just street driving I was doing...

Nice project there with the rotor backing plates. I'll probably look into the TMS carbon fiber ones shortly myself....

Adam
PEI330Ci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2005, 01:37 PM   #29
vaio76109
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 8,828
My Ride: Race Cars
Quote:
Originally Posted by pei330ci
"How the **** did you manage to do that?"

Hard driving....lots of 100mph down to 50mph or lower corners. Probably the most damanging thing was that I didn't do very thorough cool down sessions with the brakes after hard driving laps at the track.
Damn man, ive tracked my car many times and havent ever had that happen, and im hard on the brakes.

Im thinking about just making all new backing plates now , im a perfectionist.
vaio76109 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2005, 04:36 PM   #30
Dirtboy
Grüne Hölle Junkie
 
Dirtboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 1,338
My Ride: ESS TS2+ 330Ci
Send a message via Yahoo to Dirtboy
My setup -
Bavarian Auto slotted rotors, front and rear (think they're Zimmerman's...)
Bavarian Auto Caliper Bushing Kit, front and rear
StopTech stage 1 upgrade kit (SS lines, Motul fluid and HPS pads)

For the Nürburgring, I throw on Pagid Orange pads in the front. Braking is real good once the pads are warmed up.

And I will never again get HPS pads, they suk ...even on the street.

__________________
Dirtboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2005, 07:44 PM   #31
vaio76109
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 8,828
My Ride: Race Cars
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirtboy
Bavarian Auto Caliper Bushing Kit, front and rear
Are these the brass bushings that keep the rotor mounted solidly? Ive been thinking of getting some, what do you think of them?
vaio76109 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2005, 03:01 AM   #32
Dirtboy
Grüne Hölle Junkie
 
Dirtboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 1,338
My Ride: ESS TS2+ 330Ci
Send a message via Yahoo to Dirtboy
Quote:
Originally Posted by vaio76109
Are these the brass bushings that keep the rotor mounted solidly? Ive been thinking of getting some, what do you think of them?
Yup I do have better feel with them but more noise (no rubber to insulate the caliper from the rest of the car). I don't care about the noise but my wife keeps nagging me about it ( :****: - on the inside.... )

The only problem I can see from these is that you have to clean them every now and then and re-grease them. That's no problem for my during the summer because I always switch pads when I goto the track. I'm not sure how winter is gonna go.... ...but that's why I have a hooptie as well....
__________________
Dirtboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2005, 01:31 PM   #33
rnitti
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: So. Cal.
Posts: 135
My Ride: 2005 BMW 325I
I should have been more clear. When I wrote that bigger brakes will, and do, increase stopping distance, I meant using them with a racing compound pad and racing compound tires/slicks. Generally, though, BBK kits come with a more agressive pad compound; it won't be a racing pad compound, however. Like I said, BBK kits will have little to no value on the street. They do look nice, though. You best bet is to buy quality rotors and pads for the street. Nothing fancy. OEM works quite well for street IMO. If you plan on tracking/racing the car, you will need to change to a racing pad compound and change your brake fluid to a higher temp type. Your stock rotors should perform OK for mild track days and driving schools; although, they will wear much more quickly with racing compound pads. If you plan on more aggressive track days or racing, you will want to consider rotor and caliper upgrades as well. Alot of people have a set of rotors and pads for track/race and a set of rotors and pads for street. Stock calipers are generally fine, but they will need more maintanence if tracked/raced.
rnitti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2005, 02:11 PM   #34
vaio76109
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 8,828
My Ride: Race Cars
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnitti
When I wrote that bigger brakes will, and do, increase stopping distance, I meant using them with a racing compound pad and racing compound tires/slicks.
Huh? Slicks by themselves will decrease your stopping distance.

I think you just made a typo, I think you mean decrease.

As a side note, OEM pads work pretty decently on track. And im hard on them.
vaio76109 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2005, 04:53 PM   #35
Mr.E46
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Carson, CA
Posts: 22
My Ride: 05' M3 and 03' 330i
Stainless Steel Brakelines + Hawk Pads great combo.


I had Hawk HP on my G35 w/brembos and it really bites when the pads are warmed up.
__________________
05' E46 M3|6 speed|

-David
Mr.E46 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2005, 05:02 PM   #36
vaio76109
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 8,828
My Ride: Race Cars
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.E46
Stainless Steel Brakelines + Hawk Pads great combo.


I had Hawk HP on my G35 w/brembos and it really bites when the pads are warmed up.
HP+? Uhhh, arent those track pads? Bad idea for the street.
vaio76109 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2005, 05:17 PM   #37
Mr Paddle.Shift
PhD Mech. Eng.
 
Mr Paddle.Shift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: By that double apexes
Posts: 2,131
My Ride: B3 epsilon
How come I missed this thread? I actually ordered the solid caliper bolts this morning to try out.

Funny how you folks talk about brakes all weekend. I've been contemplating a set of BBK as well. A particular AP Racing race kit to be exact. No dust boots, direct spindle bolt on. But decided to hold back on the investment. The down side are the expenditures of maintaining a set of BBK. Something which most folks who buy BBK for show don't really talk about.

For people like us who are addicted to track, investing in a set of BBK takes on a different meaning. Here's why. You got to go with at least a 4-pot with floating rotors. Monobloc even better. I calculated a yearly supply of 2-pc floating Rotors + race pads + brake fluid + servicing would run for at least $500~$600, given an average of 1.5 events a month for a year. This is the bottomline figure really. Plus don't forget once you invest in a set of R-comps, you have to factor into this "rubbery" expense.

This is from my personal view who takes on track driving as a hobby really. If you're racing, a BBK is inevitable. Despite having about 30 track days under my belt, I still find it hard to justify getting BBK. The reason is plain simple: There is always a driver without BBK who can drive better. Hey, until the day you realize that driver is you, then perhaps you're ready for a BBK. Also the common misunderstanding of having BBK is the ability (which is temptation IMO) to brake late in order to catch up. This is fine if you're Hans Stuck or Bill Auberlen, who have years of racing experiences. Braking late means you have less room for mistakes. This translates to knowing what to do and how to react quickly if something happens. Too often I have seen people with BBKs and not really knowing how to handle the car. Braking late under such circumstances spell trouble.
__________________

Technik Engineering ASA Stage 1.
Supercharged E46 M54B25.
2011 NASA TTC So Cal Champion!
Track blog.
Technik Engineering oil cap o-ring maintenance kit available.
Mr Paddle.Shift is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2005, 05:20 PM   #38
Mr Paddle.Shift
PhD Mech. Eng.
 
Mr Paddle.Shift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: By that double apexes
Posts: 2,131
My Ride: B3 epsilon
Quote:
Originally Posted by vaio76109
HP+? Uhhh, arent those track pads? Bad idea for the street.
Ha now that you mention...

My current HP Plus pads were changed in May and I am already half-way through, after 6 track days. The 15th event with ASA SK1 at Buttonwillow was the ultimate test for the HP Plus. I wished I had a IR temp gauge to measure the temp of the rotors. These pads are good for the occasional track events, but at the end of the day, an MOT of 750C won't be enough. The pads are probably good for another few track events. After that, I am going for race pads.
__________________

Technik Engineering ASA Stage 1.
Supercharged E46 M54B25.
2011 NASA TTC So Cal Champion!
Track blog.
Technik Engineering oil cap o-ring maintenance kit available.
Mr Paddle.Shift is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2005, 07:33 PM   #39
vaio76109
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 8,828
My Ride: Race Cars
6 two day events or 6 single day events? On my current OEM pads I have 4 total track days on them and there holding up just fine. I find the OEM pads to be pretty good, ofcourse I havent spoiled myself with aftermarket pads yet. Otherwise im just running Motul RBF 600 and currently working on cooling. I think im just gonna make an entire new backing plate at this point cuz im a perfectionist.

I know what you mean about hot rotors. Sometimes checking my hot pressure my hands are almost burning from the heat the rotors are giving off.

Even on my stock brakes im outbraking some of the guys with BBK. I threshold brake pretty much every corner now.
vaio76109 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2005, 08:49 AM   #40
mrshelley
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bethlehem, PA
Posts: 914
My Ride: 2004 330i
In Cup, we are required to run the stock calipers and rotors. We just run ATE Super Blue, braided lines, frozen rotors and PFC pads. We run the stock backing plates and the factory brake ducts. The drivers are on the ABS every corner of every lap and we have only had one brake failure. That was at 3 Rivers and the #39 car ran out of pads. The RF piston was ground into the rotor and it finally squirted out some fluid. That was on the last lap but the driver still was able to finish without a problem.

At least we didn't suffer the three brake fires like the Acura's did. 3 Rivers is a street race and it is very hard on brakes.

For the rest of the races, we never have a problem. So, I'm pretty impressed by the stock brakes. If we have a hard time burning up the brakes during 2.5 hours of racing, I just can't imagine what someone could be doing, needing a BBK.
__________________
mrshelley is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Censor is ON





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
(c) 1999 - 2011 performanceIX Inc - privacy policy - terms of use