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Old 08-23-2005, 10:08 AM   #41
jmsanders78
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Wow - I'm jealous of your pad life. 4 total track days on oem pads? At my first event I went through 50% of the original pad thickness in 3 30-minute sessions. All of the pad material was gone from the backing plate. And BMW replaced them under full maintenance! And the HP+ only last for 12 30-minute sessions for me (two two-day BMWCCA events). I'm sure my braking could use improvement and my pad life would benefit considerably. The HP+ are a street pad, not a track pad. They're noisy on the street, but they stop fine. I just made the switch to HT-10s for track use after I changed my previous set of HP+ pads and found that the front pad backing plates were bent at the leading edge (away from the rotor surface). I am impressed with my HT-10 pad consumption after one event. That and the braking! When they're hot, they're incredible!
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Old 08-23-2005, 10:42 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by mrshelley
The drivers are on the ABS every corner of every lap and we have only had one brake failure.
Isnt it quicker to stay off the ABS, ie threshold braking before ABS?
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Old 08-23-2005, 10:48 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmsanders78
Wow - I'm jealous of your pad life. 4 total track days on oem pads? At my first event I went through 50% of the original pad thickness in 3 30-minute sessions.
Im surpised too cuz im very hard on them, however im a very late braker so less heat is built up overall. Its frustrating to see people riding their brakes and braking excessively early.
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Old 08-23-2005, 02:40 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmsanders78
The HP+ are a street pad, not a track pad. They're noisy on the street, but they stop fine. I just made the switch to HT-10s for track use after I changed my previous set of HP+ pads and found that the front pad backing plates were bent at the leading edge (away from the rotor surface). I am impressed with my HT-10 pad consumption after one event. That and the braking! When they're hot, they're incredible!
Believe it or not, even Hawk advertised the Plus as track + street. I was bought into the maybe 50 track/50 street usage of the pads. The first set was ok. Then my current set seems to wear out faster or maybe I brake harder these days.

So did you need to swap out the HT-10 on the streets? What about the Hawk Blues? Any experiences?
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Old 08-23-2005, 02:53 PM   #45
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Btw, that was 6 events. 5 single days and 1 double-day.

But I am with you about using stock for now. I started it out that way. In fact I started bone stock with AutoX. Then with each mod, I make it a point to AutoX or track. My philosophy thus is to "mod then track". Then you will appreciate how each mod functions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vaio76109
Im surpised too cuz im very hard on them, however im a very late braker so less heat is built up overall. Its frustrating to see people riding their brakes and braking excessively early.
You know from a pure physics pov, I think there may not be significant difference between heat built up for early and late braker. The goal is to decelerate a body in motion from velocity X to velocity Y. Remember as a late braker, you have to slow down from X to Y in a shorter duration. For that the brakes have to work harder.

Are these CCA events you attended? Cos I know CCA events out here on the west coast drill the "brake-early" routine into students. But some students tend to take that way too literally cos each car handles differently on the track. But I believe it's a matter of experiences. The more seat time you have, the better you're at finding the optimal braking zone for each turn. At the last event, a novice apparently joined the group I was in. At a fast turn, instead of full throttle all the way, he braked and DOWNSHIFTED. I was 12 inches from his arse.
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Old 08-23-2005, 03:33 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Paddle.Shift
But I am with you about using stock for now. I started it out that way. In fact I started bone stock with AutoX. Then with each mod, I make it a point to AutoX or track. My philosophy thus is to "mod then track". Then you will appreciate how each mod functions.

You know from a pure physics pov, I think there may not be significant difference between heat built up for early and late braker. The goal is to decelerate a body in motion from velocity X to velocity Y. Remember as a late braker, you have to slow down from X to Y in a shorter duration. For that the brakes have to work harder.

Are these CCA events you attended? Cos I know CCA events out here on the west coast drill the "brake-early" routine into students. But some students tend to take that way too literally cos each car handles differently on the track. But I believe it's a matter of experiences. The more seat time you have, the better you're at finding the optimal braking zone for each turn. At the last event, a novice apparently joined the group I was in. At a fast turn, instead of full throttle all the way, he braked and DOWNSHIFTED. I was 12 inches from his arse.
I agree with the stock and mod up thing. I laugh at people who mod up everything(ie bodykit, rims, sc, coilovers, BBK...) and then have no money left to track it. Not only that but at that people the car is way out of their league.

Im not 100% shure on the heat build up part because ive never seen an actual study, but im just going on what ive seen, heard, and felt. It seems logical to me that it would build up less heat.

Yes, mostly BMWCCA events but also some PCA. At first they really dont teach much about braking(because almost everyone naturally brakes early), they wont you to concentrate on the line more than anything. Then as I got better the instructors started pointing out braking also in addition to the line. Now I run solo and have experimented with braking points on my own.

Hey, you wouldnt have any in car videos would ya?
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Old 08-23-2005, 10:06 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Paddle.Shift
Believe it or not, even Hawk advertised the Plus as track + street.
I know they do. They're fine for a while, but there came a time for me when enough was enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Paddle.Shift
I was bought into the maybe 50 track/50 street usage of the pads.
I did too. I think I used ~5 or 6 sets on track and then switched to the HT-10s because of the bent backing plates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Paddle.Shift
So did you need to swap out the HT-10 on the streets? What about the Hawk Blues? Any experiences?
I swapped the pads on a Tuesday afternoon before a Friday lapping day to minimize the amount of time driven on the street but to leave me time to get them bedded. At first it was a bit dicey, but I personally didn't think that they were as useless at low temperatures as advertised. They were loud - louder than the HP+ but in a monotone sort of way (instead of the caucophony of the HP+). I swapped back to HP+ two days later to spare my rotors.
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Old 08-23-2005, 10:08 PM   #48
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I had this picture posted on Bimmerforums:

http://bimmerforums.com/forum/showth...+backing+plate
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Old 08-23-2005, 11:46 PM   #49
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I changed my HP+ two days ago. Had even less material left.

Once these HP+ are done, I am going to try out the GS3.

From what I hear, they offer the bite of the Hawk Blue, with the 'rotor friendliness' of the HP+.
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Old 08-24-2005, 12:38 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vaio76109
I agree with the stock and mod up thing. I laugh at people who mod up everything(ie bodykit, rims, sc, coilovers, BBK...) and then have no money left to track it. Not only that but at that people the car is way out of their league.
Well, the track thing is not everyone's cup of tea. I tried to convince two friends into this game. One got hooked and couldn't get enough. The other called it quits after 2 events. Frankly, I think it's a good to try at least once whether one likes it or not eventually . Such an event lets you know just what kind of a hardware you have and how much skills you need to control it. Skills like these will be useful on highway and street driving nonetheless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vaio76109
Now I run solo and have experimented with braking points on my own.
Are braking cones provided? I know CCA here have 3/2/1 zones for braking and then one cone for apex and one for exit. Good for novice but I got so accustomed to them when I started going to other events, I realized I needed to find my own zones. Now I am accustomed to feeling my car instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vaia76109
Hey, you wouldnt have any in car videos would ya?
Yeah, I posted a few in the reports. Right click and save as.

Here's one from Big Willow Nov 2004.

Here's one from the stand at Buttonwillow Sept 2004.

Here's one from ThunderHill Aug 2004.

I just got bought a used DV cam from a pal. So expect more clips from my next event!
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Old 08-24-2005, 12:41 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmsanders78
I had this picture posted on Bimmerforums:
Ah...ok. I got it now. I did a search on Bforums a while back on solid caliper bolts and saw that picture. I couldn't figure it out until I examined it again. Gosh that's really bizarre.

So for HT-10, I could technically change it the day before the event. Drive up to the event. Finish the event. Drive home and change back to HP Plus?

What about changing the rears to HT-10 as well? I gathered that since race pads have a higher coefficient of friction, it's recommended to change the rears to race setup as well?
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Old 08-24-2005, 12:44 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Paddle.Shift
Are braking cones provided? I know CCA here have 3/2/1 zones for braking and then one cone for apex and one for exit. Good for novice but I got so accustomed to them when I started going to other events, I realized I needed to find my own zones. Now I am accustomed to feeling my car instead.
Yea braking cones are provided for some turns(and then of course turn in, apex, track out on all), although I dont find myself really using them, althought subconsciously I might be. But yea, I just do it by feel...I think.

I dont own a video camera but my friend does. I made a mount for it before my last event and my friend was supposed to let me lend his camera but his brother wanted to use it for a HIN...retarded I know. Hopefully ill have footage next time...which is October i think.
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Old 08-24-2005, 12:50 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Mr Paddle.Shift
Ah...ok. I got it now. I did a search on Bforums a while back on solid caliper bolts and saw that picture. I couldn't figure it out until I examined it again. Gosh that's really bizarre.
Wait, the solid caliper guide bushings caused that bend?
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Old 08-24-2005, 08:00 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Paddle.Shift
So for HT-10, I could technically change it the day before the event. Drive up to the event. Finish the event. Drive home and change back to HP Plus?
That's what I did. And that's what I'll do in the future. My buddy intended to do that with his Pagid Oranges and never took them off his car. He's been driving around with race pads since late June. I had this same question and started another Bimmerforums thread about swapping at the track. Enough people drive to/from with race pads that I figured it was doable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Paddle.Shift
What about changing the rears to HT-10 as well?
Yeah - I put the HT-10s on front and rear. I just realized I never responded about the Hawk Blues - no experience with them at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vaio76109
Wait, the solid caliper guide bushings caused that bend?
No, I don't have the guides. I have had uneven wear across the two pads, but not enough to make me buy the solid guides. Those guides were only suggested as a remedy. I went with the HT-10s instead!
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Old 08-24-2005, 04:55 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vaio76109
Hopefully ill have footage next time...which is October i think.
What? Track in 1.5 months?? I can't even survive a weekend without track.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vaio76109
Wait, the solid caliper guide bushings caused that bend?
I don't think so. Btw, my set arrives. Will write a report after the event.

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Old 08-24-2005, 04:59 PM   #56
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What? Track in 1.5 months?? I can't even survive a weekend without track.
Hey, I wish I could do it more but I cant afford to. Also events dont happen often around here.
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Old 08-24-2005, 05:04 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by jmsanders78
That's what I did. And that's what I'll do in the future. My buddy intended to do that with his Pagid Oranges and never took them off his car. He's been driving around with race pads since late June. I had this same question and started another Bimmerforums thread about swapping at the track. Enough people drive to/from with race pads that I figured it was doable.
I know a few hardcore junkies do that. We have an hour to leave the venue after the last session is over. And I am that fanatic to run til the day is over. I could change the pads in an hour but cooling is the main issue. Out here the tracks the weather is still pretty hot even in the evenings.
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Old 08-24-2005, 05:46 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Mr Paddle.Shift
I know a few hardcore junkies do that. We have an hour to leave the venue after the last session is over. And I am that fanatic to run til the day is over. I could change the pads in an hour but cooling is the main issue. Out here the tracks the weather is still pretty hot even in the evenings.
Changing the pads when the calipers/rotors/pads are hot = the worst thing ever.
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Old 08-24-2005, 06:18 PM   #59
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Changing the pads when the calipers/rotors/pads are hot = the worst thing ever.
HAHA, I was thinking the same thing.
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Old 08-24-2005, 08:38 PM   #60
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Cryo's

If anyone is interested, just an update on my equipment... The thread's wandered quite a bit from the start.

With the non-slotted cryo rotors it seems that I have to apply noticably more force to engage the ABS. I think that's a good thing. I'm not convinced I like the Metal Masters. Anybody try them and have something else to compare them to? Compared to OEM they have less dust, less high speed fade, more noise (squeeky), and a little less stopping power at low speed, initial bite.

When they're done I'll probably switch to something from Hawk or Pagid.
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