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General BMW Model Discussion
All non E46 BMW model questions in here. Look below for E36, E90 and F30 specific forum. For additional model specific forums check out bimmerfest.com!

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Old 02-20-2006, 12:35 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2001BMW330xi
it's sad - for years the BMW naturally aspirated engines have been outperforming Mercedes' cars which often are supercharged (kompressor models, all of the current //AMG models). Mercedes has just announced that it will be making normally aspirated 6.3L engines for the new ML63, S63, CL63, CLS63, and SLK63 over the next two years. And Now BMW is going supercharged.

what's wrong with this picture?
Turbo. I see nothing wrong with it. It's all engineering. Turbos have existed almost as long as IC engines and are not considered cheating. If everyone could build a user-friendly, environment-friendly, lag-free, low-consumption turbo engine, everyone would. But it's not that easy, trust me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmag.com
The only way to achieve such an increase in power and performance with a normally-aspirated engine would be to significantly increase engine size, which would also mean a corresponding increase in weight and the negative effects on the car's overall balance.
They also say that the engine is 70 kg lighter than the earlier 4.0L V-8 which put out same hp, but less torque. That's like having a 155lb person sitting in your engine bay.
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Old 02-20-2006, 03:24 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by 2001BMW330xi
it's sad - for years the BMW naturally aspirated engines have been outperforming Mercedes' cars which often are supercharged (kompressor models, all of the current //AMG models). Mercedes has just announced that it will be making normally aspirated 6.3L engines for the new ML63, S63, CL63, CLS63, and SLK63 over the next two years. And Now BMW is going supercharged.

what's wrong with this picture?
Blame the hp wars. With power numbers going the way they are it's getting more and more expensive to keep up with the power demands of the public with an NA engines. MB and Audi have used FI engines because it's easier (and cheaper) to make large HP numbers out of a smaller (more fuel efficient) engine. BMW has stayed NA because it's had a great seller (the 3 series) and has had the income to handle creating new engines. But it can't hold that forever. Notice that all the M cars are staying NA, it's the regular line that's going FI (and only one level in the lineup). It's not the end of the world.
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Old 02-20-2006, 05:15 PM   #83
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^^ good point. keep the ///M cars NA and all should be okay. in a few years they'll probably realize that higher hp numbers dont' always mean better, except for uninformed customers with too much green.
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Old 02-20-2006, 05:39 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by 2001BMW330xi
^^ good point. keep the ///M cars NA and all should be okay. in a few years they'll probably realize that higher hp numbers dont' always mean better, except for uninformed customers with too much green.
Other than the pride of saying that BMW makes only NA engines, which are also some of the best ever made in production cars, what other basis do you have for not liking FI engines, if they perform as desired. If you have no lag, good fuel economy, why deny yourself the pleasure of having the best handling car in its class, that now has power to match that ability as well.

PS: Do you not want non-M BMWs to approach E46 M3 performance territory?
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Old 02-20-2006, 06:33 PM   #85
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eventually, it will surpass the power of the e46 m3, thats what the e90 m3 is for. you can see the trend of making the non-M engines as powerful as the M engines many years later(for example, e30 m3 and the modern e46 325\330). can't wait to see how the N54 will respond to intake\exhaust and a chip.
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Old 02-20-2006, 06:47 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Cobra
eventually, it will surpass the power of the e46 m3, thats what the e90 m3 is for. you can see the trend of making the non-M engines as powerful as the M engines many years later(for example, e30 m3 and the modern e46 325\330). can't wait to see how the N54 will respond to intake\exhaust and a chip.
and some new turbos
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Old 02-20-2006, 08:13 PM   #87
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can't wait to see how the N54 will respond to intake\exhaust and a chip.
this engine (once they crack the ECU) will be incredible to tune, I can't wait.
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Old 02-20-2006, 09:08 PM   #88
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Beautiful engine, hideous car.

Edit: Although a 535 would be pretty sweet.
Yes, that I would want to see... too bad they never made that for the e39... the e60 is so ugly...
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Old 02-20-2006, 10:28 PM   #89
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i think you guys over estimate the tunability of the BMW turbo setup. My understanding is that there will be 2 bays of 2 turbos ... so each bay of 3 cylinders will have 2 turbos, one for low RPM and one for high. Given the CPU management to manage such a system (consider other enhancements like DI) and you're looking at a very complex FI solution. This isn't your every day bolt on turbo.
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Old 02-20-2006, 11:19 PM   #90
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i think you guys over estimate the tunability of the BMW turbo setup. My understanding is that there will be 2 bays of 2 turbos ... so each bay of 3 cylinders will have 2 turbos, one for low RPM and one for high. Given the CPU management to manage such a system (consider other enhancements like DI) and you're looking at a very complex FI solution. This isn't your every day bolt on turbo.
I don't think that's right, if there were 4 turbos then it would be a quad-turbo setup not bi-turbo. But either way, it will be easy. I'm not talkin about Supra Turbo easy where you can replace the turbos with larger ones and get 1000hp. But it will be easy to get 20-60hp gains out of these cars once the ECU is cracked with basic bolt-ons and software raising the boost. To get those kind of gains you have to do alot of work on a BMW now. So relative to the whole tuning industry, no it won't be that easy, but relative to the BMW world it will.
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Old 02-20-2006, 11:30 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by hayabusa55
Other than the pride of saying that BMW makes only NA engines, which are also some of the best ever made in production cars, what other basis do you have for not liking FI engines, if they perform as desired. If you have no lag, good fuel economy, why deny yourself the pleasure of having the best handling car in its class, that now has power to match that ability as well.

PS: Do you not want non-M BMWs to approach E46 M3 performance territory?

I dont' really have any problems with FI engines, it's just that it's traditionally NA engines from BMW and in the ///M department. It's always been a selling point IMO. Plus, I believe that the NA engines that BMW's ///M division has produced are more reliable in the long run than the FI and turbo and superchanged engines from Audi and Mercedes. I've got nothing against more performance, just want the quality to keep up where it's been at. I've had too many friends that have had to rebuild their turbos in their older Audi's or have a lot of maintanence costs, thats all.

I have just an open of a mind as the next guy - I personally like all the new BMW styling and there's no doubt in my mind that I'll love the cars when they are finally out.
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Old 02-20-2006, 11:35 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by ILLCOMM
i think you guys over estimate the tunability of the BMW turbo setup. My understanding is that there will be 2 bays of 2 turbos ... so each bay of 3 cylinders will have 2 turbos, one for low RPM and one for high. Given the CPU management to manage such a system (consider other enhancements like DI) and you're looking at a very complex FI solution. This isn't your every day bolt on turbo.
It's a biturbo setup; one turbo for each three cylinders.

Thing is, they're small turbines with very little inertia (for quick spooling to eliminate lag). Also, the stock setup is running on very low boost...probably around 4 PSI. If you crank the boost, you'll ruin the car's power curve and probably induce lag in the process. You'll also get 1.8T-syndrome: large amounts of low end torque (which is pretty useless unless you're towing boats or trailers) with a relatively weak increase in top end power.

This engine isn't being built so that tuners can pull 400 hp out of it; it's intended to provide great streetable torque and power with great fuel economy without ruining the responsive characteristics that BMW engines are known for. I'd expect that modest gains of 20-30 hp are possible with little or no effect on the power curve or drivability characteristics of the engine (no doubt BMW has engineered some breathing room into the engine for future models/packages etc), but going beyond that will probably require some serious work.
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Old 02-20-2006, 11:47 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by 2001BMW330xi
I dont' really have any problems with FI engines, it's just that it's traditionally NA engines from BMW and in the ///M department. It's always been a selling point IMO. Plus, I believe that the NA engines that BMW's ///M division has produced are more reliable in the long run than the FI and turbo and superchanged engines from Audi and Mercedes. I've got nothing against more performance, just want the quality to keep up where it's been at. I've had too many friends that have had to rebuild their turbos in their older Audi's or have a lot of maintanence costs, thats all.

I have just an open of a mind as the next guy - I personally like all the new BMW styling and there's no doubt in my mind that I'll love the cars when they are finally out.
It's always been my opinion that Audi and MB reliability was not due to the fact that their engines are FI, or that BMW's engine reliability has been due to the fact that their engines are NA. When an FI engine is designed it's built to withstand the wear of added boost, which is why it's always easier to add more boost to a factory FI setup than to add boost to an NA setup.

For example, look at the japanese FI engines from the 80's and 90's. Those (in unmodified form) are still running strong today assuming proper care. Reliability is a product of how much the manufacturer cares about it. BMW has always been known to have engines that run forever (even though the rest of the car may have problems as it ages). Audi, and MB haven't. But that's because it's assumed that in the higher end market someone isn't going to keep their car 10 or more years (maybe even 5). I think that because BMW started as an mid level car maker and evolved into a luxury car maker, they maintained a certain level of reliability, whereas AUdi and MB have always catered to a more luxury market. I may be wrong, but I think you'll see the same reliability out of the turbo BMW engines as you did out of the older NA ones.
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Old 02-21-2006, 12:38 AM   #94
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My uncle told me about a classic BMW turbo, but I forget the model name??
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Old 02-21-2006, 04:22 PM   #95
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^^^^ E23 745i turbo

This and the early 2002 turbo models are the only turbocharged road cars to be put into production by BMW.

This 7er is circa 1985 btw...
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Old 02-21-2006, 10:47 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by 3erdriver
It's always been my opinion that Audi and MB reliability was not due to the fact that their engines are FI, or that BMW's engine reliability has been due to the fact that their engines are NA. When an FI engine is designed it's built to withstand the wear of added boost, which is why it's always easier to add more boost to a factory FI setup than to add boost to an NA setup.

For example, look at the japanese FI engines from the 80's and 90's. Those (in unmodified form) are still running strong today assuming proper care. Reliability is a product of how much the manufacturer cares about it. BMW has always been known to have engines that run forever (even though the rest of the car may have problems as it ages). Audi, and MB haven't. But that's because it's assumed that in the higher end market someone isn't going to keep their car 10 or more years (maybe even 5). I think that because BMW started as an mid level car maker and evolved into a luxury car maker, they maintained a certain level of reliability, whereas AUdi and MB have always catered to a more luxury market. I may be wrong, but I think you'll see the same reliability out of the turbo BMW engines as you did out of the older NA ones.
very well put.
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Old 02-21-2006, 11:12 PM   #97
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I totally agree- very well said-
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Old 02-22-2006, 07:15 PM   #98
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Don't worry guys, we are already on this engine...

Two things to note:This not a Valvetronic motor. Second, it is two parallel small turbos, 1 for each 3 cylinders that feed into a single intake. Not sequential. And the fact that we have Valvetronic tuning software for the new E90 already (MSV70), tuning this engine is a matter of just getting one on the dyno and working on it.

We predict simple software looks to be 350+hp.

Simple minor upgrades like our headers, piping, etc a bit more.

Turbo swap, easy 400+hp.

We will keep working on it and let everyone know how it turns out!
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Old 02-22-2006, 07:49 PM   #99
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Don't worry guys, we are already on this engine...

Two things to note:This not a Valvetronic motor. Second, it is two parallel small turbos, 1 for each 3 cylinders that feed into a single intake. Not sequential. And the fact that we have Valvetronic tuning software for the new E90 already (MSV70), tuning this engine is a matter of just getting one on the dyno and working on it.

We predict simple software looks to be 350+hp.

Simple minor upgrades like our headers, piping, etc a bit more.

Turbo swap, easy 400+hp.

We will keep working on it and let everyone know how it turns out!
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Old 02-23-2006, 01:55 AM   #100
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Don't worry guys, we are already on this engine...

Two things to note:This not a Valvetronic motor. Second, it is two parallel small turbos, 1 for each 3 cylinders that feed into a single intake. Not sequential. And the fact that we have Valvetronic tuning software for the new E90 already (MSV70), tuning this engine is a matter of just getting one on the dyno and working on it.

We predict simple software looks to be 350+hp.

Simple minor upgrades like our headers, piping, etc a bit more.

Turbo swap, easy 400+hp.

We will keep working on it and let everyone know how it turns out!

Those are some serious claims. If you can back them up then I will see you as soon as I get my 335. I hope we don't have to find out what happens in the other direction.
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