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Old 07-18-2006, 09:44 PM   #1
pwrsld12
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heel toe down shift

is it cheating the technique and how wrong is it to instead of blipping the throttle, to instead cover both the brake and throttle with the right foot and get to the appropriate rpm for the lower gear(s).
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Old 07-18-2006, 09:47 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pwrsld12
is it cheating the technique and how wrong is it to instead of blipping the throttle, to instead cover both the brake and throttle with the right foot and get to the appropriate rpm for the lower gear(s).
That was hard to follow but if I read that right, that's how your supposed to do it....
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Old 07-18-2006, 09:52 PM   #3
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what i mean is to not blip the throttle but instead rev to a steady high rpm until the shift
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Old 07-18-2006, 09:55 PM   #4
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What are you comparing heel-toeing to? A normal downshift + braking?

Edit: oops, just read your post. It sounds like the same thing to me. You should be doing it quickly, though. I think that's why most people just say blipping the throttle.

I've had experience doing it in different cars and sometimes you need to blip the throttle a couple times to get the rpms up quick enough to match the revs. Otherwise you'll engage with insufficient rpms and possibly upset your handling through the corner.

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Old 07-18-2006, 09:58 PM   #5
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like something i would do when driving hard and fast, i mean more involved than commuting driving
???

edit, you edited so i need not reply. BTW why blipp and not ride the throttle like i tried to explain
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Old 07-18-2006, 10:08 PM   #6
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Blipping is faster. And you want your foot to be available asap for either braking or gas, not sitting over both.

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Old 07-19-2006, 10:56 AM   #7
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The ECU in our cars does not like the action of Brakes and Gas at the same time - it's totally counter to what the computer expects to see (brakes & gas, I need to kill the gas says Mr. Computer), so it can be challenging to heel / toe in an E46. However, when I did the Dinan upgrades on the intake / TB / software, that helped the repsonsivness with the throttle blip immensely. And, in any case, it seems much easier to do driving at the limits on the track higher up in the rpm band as it is to do on the street in a more moderate driving style...........

I also find it very intersting how much easier and more repsonsive my MINI S is to heel / toe - it's a piece of cake, and I actually do it alot driving on the street because it is so easy to do.
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Old 07-19-2006, 05:24 PM   #8
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I don't have any software on my car, just the UUC LTW flywheel and heel-toe'ing is a breeze.
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Old 07-19-2006, 05:43 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vaio76109
I don't have any software on my car, just the UUC LTW flywheel and heel-toe'ing is a breeze.
hell-toe is all about prictice......vaio you have had alot of practice im sure.....but the blip is ok if you have you foot off of the brake.....but it is best to heel toe when you are braking straight and hard coming into the turn and fininhing as you take your foot off the brake and slide it to the gas.....through the apex
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Old 07-20-2006, 07:51 AM   #10
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hell-toe is all about prictice......vaio you have had alot of practice im sure.....but the blip is ok if you have you foot off of the brake.....but it is best to heel toe when you are braking straight and hard coming into the turn and fininhing as you take your foot off the brake and slide it to the gas.....through the apex
Uh......

No.

The blip is performed with the foot operating the brake and gas at the same time.
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Old 07-20-2006, 07:52 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by TwoE46s
The ECU in our cars does not like the action of Brakes and Gas at the same time - it's totally counter to what the computer expects to see (brakes & gas, I need to kill the gas says Mr. Computer), so it can be challenging to heel / toe in an E46.
I've never had an issue with it.
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Old 07-20-2006, 09:58 AM   #12
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I've never had an issue with it.
I've found just a huge difference between the coupe (pre and post Dinan), my MINI S, and the Panoz Racing School cars.

Even now, the coupe does not "blip" up as quickly as the MINI S, while the carburated Ford V8s in the Panoz cars "blip" up instantaniously...........
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Old 07-20-2006, 11:01 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Geo31
Uh......

No.

The blip is performed with the foot operating the brake and gas at the same time.
I think I was confused as you were reading that
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Old 07-20-2006, 08:04 PM   #14
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theres drive by wire for you......the ford v8s have a cable that is connected to the throttle plate.......
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Old 07-22-2006, 06:26 PM   #15
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i watch racing alot and i often see people heel toe down shifting multiple times before one turn.
my question is why do they do that? why not just go brake and hold the top gear longer and then just shift into the lowest gear they need.
it just seems like more work to me. it may be to get some engine braking and take load of the brakes, but that doesnt seem like a good enough reason to do it.

i may have the answer but probably not : it sounds bad ass


ALSO: are there transmitions that are called sequential that have a layout like a sport bike and not an H pattern and come with a clutch
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Old 07-22-2006, 06:33 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pwrsld12
i watch racing alot and i often see people heel toe down shifting multiple times before one turn.
my question is why do they do that? why not just go brake and hold the top gear longer and then just shift into the lowest gear they need.
it just seems like more work to me. it may be to get some engine braking and take load of the brakes, but that doesnt seem like a good enough reason to do it.

i may have the answer but probably not : it sounds bad ass


ALSO: are there transmitions that are called sequential that have a layout like a sport bike and not an H pattern and come with a clutch

It's not that easy to go from 5th to 3rd and rev match it perfectly very quickly, it's actually quicker to go from 5th to 4th to 3rd and rev match perfectly, smoothly, and quickly.
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Old 07-23-2006, 08:24 AM   #17
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The answer is one of personal preference. One reason not to hold gear until the need to accelerate is that it's a good idea to have the car always in a gear where you can accelerate quickly should something happen and you need power to get away from it (such as an incident occuring in front of you).

For my part, I use a combination depending upon the situation/corner. Some I row through all the gears and some I skip gears. There is no hard and fast rule for this.

Forget engine braking. Any car should be able to brake harder that what the engine can contribute to.

Yes there are sequential boxes out there. You'll find them on racecars all the time where the rules allow for it. They are faster to shift and you don't mis-shift.
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Old 07-23-2006, 10:53 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by TwoE46s
The ECU in our cars does not like the action of Brakes and Gas at the same time - it's totally counter to what the computer expects to see
That is such bull crap. I highly doubt BMW didn't expect customers to heel toe.
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Old 07-24-2006, 09:41 AM   #19
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That is such bull crap. I highly doubt BMW didn't expect customers to heel toe.
Think about it - 99.5% of BMW owners have no idea how to heel toe, nor have any reason to do so. However, 99.95% of all BMWs are driven on the street and for saftey's sake, thing like this are built into the cars - same has the inherant built in understeer. Sheesh, if I forget to disable the DSC before I leave pit road at Road Atlanta, the DSC kicks in going up the hill in turn 1 driving at 50%.................. If I'm full of it, then please tell me exactly why there is such a tremedous delay on a stock car on the throttle when you blip...........(even more than when you just punch it).

In fact, with the new Mercedes technology, I don't think you could actually drive thier cars effectively on the track today, as when they sence a "panic" stopping situation they automatically adjust the seat and steering wheel for optimum airbag deployment, along with closing the windows and sunroof - maybe you can disable that, but it's certainly more of the saftey nanny intrusion into your car...........
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Old 07-24-2006, 06:13 PM   #20
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Sounds like idle speculation to me.

Maybe 99.5% of Bimmer owners in the US don't know how to heel/toe, but I wouldn't necessarily make that assumption for the rest of the world.

Also, that would be a stupid plan for a company that markets itself to enthusiasts.

But, stranger things have happened. May be just a quirk of the drive by wire stuff. Certainly I have zero problems with my 2000 328i. Also, for the DBW stuff, I'm sure the reprogramming stuff would negate that if it is in the factory programming.
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