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Old 07-24-2006, 07:22 PM   #21
TwoE46s
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo31
Sounds like idle speculation to me.

Maybe 99.5% of Bimmer owners in the US don't know how to heel/toe, but I wouldn't necessarily make that assumption for the rest of the world.

Also, that would be a stupid plan for a company that markets itself to enthusiasts.

But, stranger things have happened. May be just a quirk of the drive by wire stuff. Certainly I have zero problems with my 2000 328i. Also, for the DBW stuff, I'm sure the reprogramming stuff would negate that if it is in the factory programming.
Think of all the nuances that are done for cars for different markets, how the ecu is programmed could very easily be different from market to market.

With regards to the brake / accelerator, can you spell Audi and lawsuits? I would think that in a vast majority of the cases, when a brake pedal is depressed and the gas is also pressed, someone is making a panic stop with thier feet all over the place. Maybe I'm full of it, but it sure seems apparent to me.

And, as I noted before with regards to reprogramming the ECU, the Dinan software made a substantial difference in the DBW/ECU programming and made the blip much more responsive over stock.........
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Old 07-24-2006, 07:34 PM   #22
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I think that answers your differences in opinion.
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Old 07-24-2006, 10:21 PM   #23
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All this heel-toe blah blah blah...and nothing about passing people!

See what I do...is get on the brakes with my toes, shift into neutral, then hold the throttle wide open with my heel while still on the brakes. If you are side by side with someone...it freaks them the heck out and viola...you make the pass!

If both car's windows are down I yell and scream as well...

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Old 07-24-2006, 10:35 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by pei330ci
See what I do...is get on the brakes with my toes, shift into neutral, then hold the throttle wide open with my heel while still on the brakes. If you are side by side with someone...it freaks them the heck out and viola...you make the pass!
You're passing people in braking zones? Don't you just do DE's? Why would someone be freaked out by heel-toeing? They're probably freaked out that you're passing them in a braking zone. IMO the only time you should be passing someone in a braking zone is when you're actually wheel to wheel racing.
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Old 07-24-2006, 10:45 PM   #25
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when my shoes are wide enough.. i pull a big toe and small toe. no need to heel&toe
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Old 07-24-2006, 11:04 PM   #26
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I also use the little toe-big toe technique.
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Old 07-25-2006, 05:02 AM   #27
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Greg...just adding a bit of humour to the thread. I don't race wheel to wheel, nor to I have a desire to in the immediate future. Heck, I get nervous when I'm pointed by slower cars...
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Old 07-25-2006, 12:26 PM   #28
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There are plenty of different techniques to get the same thing done - as long as you are using the most comfortable and most consistant/fastest way for you - it doesn't matter how it is done...

Me - in BMW's (or any other inverted throttle car), I'll just used ball-edge and in any hanging throttle car, I'll just use the actual heel-toe technique.
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Old 07-25-2006, 01:13 PM   #29
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The point of heel and toe is to brake and shift as late as possible without getting into a turn. That means the "Real" heel and toe is most affective when slamming into the brake before the turn and blipping the throttle while the clutch is pusshed down, and at the same time downshifting a gear or two if nessesarry. The reason they blip the throttle and not hold the foot on the gas, is because its the fastest way to do it.

As far as ecu not letting ur do it, I don't think that is possible. Intake and software will help u improve it?????
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Old 07-25-2006, 01:53 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klubbheads
The point of heel and toe is to brake and shift as late as possible without getting into a turn. That means the "Real" heel and toe is most affective when slamming into the brake before the turn and blipping the throttle while the clutch is pusshed down, and at the same time downshifting a gear or two if nessesarry. The reason they blip the throttle and not hold the foot on the gas, is because its the fastest way to do it.

As far as ecu not letting ur do it, I don't think that is possible. Intake and software will help u improve it?????
Well, you are partly right in saying that the whole point of heel-toe is to downshift (select the proper gear for that corner) and brake as late as possible - but you are wrong in saying that the "real" heel-toe is the fastest way.

There are plenty of different pedal configurations and not all of them make the standard way of doing heel-toe easily...much like the pedals in the E46...and almost all other BMW's/Porsches, for that matter.

Anyway - like I said - the best way to do it is the most comfortable/consistent/fastest way in that order...especially in road racing. Just because you can have a great corner entry 1 out of 10 times with amazing downshift speeds and perfect threshold braking - you'll still be missing that 9/10 times...

Another thing - heel-toe isn't only used for downshifting and threshold braking...plenty of people use it for weight transitioning, trail braking with some front squat (the last two can also be done well if comfortable with left foot braking), and for me, I use it on a daily basis if I'm accelerating from a stop on a hill...

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Old 07-25-2006, 02:37 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David A
Another thing - heel-toe isn't only used for downshifting and threshold braking...plenty of people use it for weight transitioning, trail braking with some front squat (the last two can also be done well if comfortable with left foot braking), and for me, I use it on a daily basis if I'm accelerating from a stop on a hill...

not sure why would u need to trasfer the weight to forward with there is no turn infront. From my understanding transfering the weight to the fron is used to let the front tires grip when enering the turn and thats when u use heel and toe the way i described earlier. It also depends on ur suspension setup. Some cars are capable of late braking right before the turn some cars aren't. The cars that aren't usually tend to understeer when u tranfer the wheight to the front, and others (the ones that are capable of, like the s2ks) later u brake the car turns in more easily.
BTW not familiar with trail braking, if u can say what it exactly means.
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Old 07-25-2006, 03:08 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klubbheads
not sure why would u need to trasfer the weight to forward with there is no turn infront. From my understanding transfering the weight to the fron is used to let the front tires grip when enering the turn and thats when u use heel and toe the way i described earlier. It also depends on ur suspension setup. Some cars are capable of late braking right before the turn some cars aren't. The cars that aren't usually tend to understeer when u tranfer the wheight to the front, and others (the ones that are capable of, like the s2ks) later u brake the car turns in more easily.
BTW not familiar with trail braking, if u can say what it exactly means.
Sorry - I should have been more clear in what I was saying...

Trail braking is something you'll find lots of Porsche cup guys use while entering a corner and that's maintaining some brake pressure while entering the turn in - some will use left foot braking and others will even just keep their foot positioning (heel-toe or ball-edge) and add some throttle in and moving the weight balance to where they want it for a given corner...

And for the first part of your post - I meant that the weight transitioning would be used for corrective purposes in very small amounts while in a corner...basically the inverse of power on correction or and the converse of lift correction...

I agree completely when you say that a lot of it depends on your suspension set up, but the biggest factor involved is the actual car platform - FF, MR, FR, RR...all of them can be fast with the proper driving...

Hope that is easier to understand...
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Old 07-25-2006, 03:21 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David A
Sorry - I should have been more clear in what I was saying...

Trail braking is something you'll find lots of Porsche cup guys use while entering a corner and that's maintaining some brake pressure while entering the turn in - some will use left foot braking and others will even just keep their foot positioning (heel-toe or ball-edge) and add some throttle in and moving the weight balance to where they want it for a given corner...

And for the first part of your post - I meant that the weight transitioning would be used for corrective purposes in very small amounts while in a corner...basically the inverse of power on correction or and the converse of lift correction...

I agree completely when you say that a lot of it depends on your suspension set up, but the biggest factor involved is the actual car platform - FF, MR, FR, RR...all of them can be fast with the proper driving...

Hope that is easier to understand...
Now i completely agree.
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Old 07-25-2006, 06:23 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klubbheads
The point of heel and toe is to brake and shift as late as possible without getting into a turn.

That means the "Real" heel and toe is most affective when slamming into the brake before the turn and blipping the throttle while the clutch is pusshed down, and at the same time downshifting a gear or two if nessesarry.

The reason they blip the throttle and not hold the foot on the gas, is because its the fastest way to do it.
That's not the only point, it also keeps the car balanced. All weight transitions should be smooth.

Slamming the pedal is not good because you'll overload the front tires before the weight has time to transfer smoothly, and once tires exceed their adhesion/traction their friction coefficient lowers(less traction in short). Again, all weight transfers should be smooth.

Also it's easier to blip the throttle. There's no reason to hold the gas at 5000rpm(which would be very hard anyways), you only need the engine at 5000rpm(or X rpm) when you release the clutch.
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Old 07-25-2006, 10:11 PM   #35
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Good God, the amount of horse poop that got tossed into this thread today is beyond belief.

http://www.se-r.net/general/heel_toe.html
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Old 07-25-2006, 10:27 PM   #36
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Good God, the amount of horse poop that got tossed into this thread today is beyond belief.

http://www.se-r.net/general/heel_toe.html
Something that i said?
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Old 07-25-2006, 11:01 PM   #37
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Something that i said?
Not at all. I agree with you.
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Old 07-25-2006, 11:08 PM   #38
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Not at all. I agree with you.
HAHA, ok, just making sure.
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Old 07-26-2006, 10:44 AM   #39
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As far as ecu not letting ur do it, I don't think that is possible. Intake and software will help u improve it?????
Not that it "won't" let you, it's just very slow to react to the trottle action as it trys to figure out just exactly is going on with the inputs it is getting from other systems it reads within the car...............
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Old 08-23-2006, 06:00 PM   #40
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Blip difference

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Originally Posted by TwoE46s View Post
I've found just a huge difference between the coupe (pre and post Dinan), my MINI S, and the Panoz Racing School cars.

Even now, the coupe does not "blip" up as quickly as the MINI S, while the carburated Ford V8s in the Panoz cars "blip" up instantaniously...........
Most likely what you're experiencing is a flywheel mass difference. Race cars can have (and want) as light and small a flywheel as possible that can still take the abuse (in line with the heel/Toe thread, there's much less "wear" abuse on a properly driven clutch).

Street cars often have heavier, larger flywheels for durability/longevity, fuel efficiency and ease of use...they're easier to engage without stalling because of inertia.
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