E46 BMW Social Directory E46 FAQ 3-Series Discussion Forums BMW Photo Gallery BMW 3-Series Technical Information E46 Fanatics - The Ultimate BMW Resource BMW Vendors General E46 Forum The Tire Rack's Tire Wheel Forum Forced Induction Forum The Off-Topic The E46 BMW Showroom For Sale, For Trade or Wanting to Buy

Welcome to the E46Fanatics forums. E46Fanatics is the premiere website for BMW 3 series owners around the world with interactive forums, a geographical enthusiast directory, photo galleries, and technical information for BMW enthusiasts.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Go Back   E46Fanatics > Tuning & Tech > Motorsports & Track Forum by BimmerWorld

Motorsports & Track Forum by BimmerWorld
From Auto-X to Trackday to Racing and Professional Motorsports this is the place to discuss making BMWs fast
Sponsored by BimmerWorld

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 08-23-2006, 06:03 PM   #41
MRace
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: California
Posts: 22
My Ride: 02 M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo31 View Post
The answer is one of personal preference. One reason not to hold gear until the need to accelerate is that it's a good idea to have the car always in a gear where you can accelerate quickly should something happen and you need power to get away from it (such as an incident occuring in front of you).

For my part, I use a combination depending upon the situation/corner. Some I row through all the gears and some I skip gears. There is no hard and fast rule for this.

Forget engine braking. Any car should be able to brake harder that what the engine can contribute to.

Yes there are sequential boxes out there. You'll find them on racecars all the time where the rules allow for it. They are faster to shift and you don't mis-shift.

Often in racing with H patterns you'll go through all the gears for timing reasons and to maintain a rythm. Many drivers do modify the timing and skip gears. With a sequential box obviously you can't skip gears so he's probably seeing mostly this on TV
MRace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2006, 06:08 PM   #42
MRace
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: California
Posts: 22
My Ride: 02 M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by klubbheads View Post
The point of heel and toe is to brake and shift as late as possible without getting into a turn. That means the "Real" heel and toe is most affective when slamming into the brake before the turn and blipping the throttle while the clutch is pusshed down, and at the same time downshifting a gear or two if nessesarry. The reason they blip the throttle and not hold the foot on the gas, is because its the fastest way to do it.

As far as ecu not letting ur do it, I don't think that is possible. Intake and software will help u improve it?????
The point of heel/toe is to match engine speed with wheel speed for each particular gear so that you don't upset the balance of the car with a sudden rear wheel speed change. The reason it's blipped instead of held down is for the same reason....if you held the throttle down then you'd be accelerating and braking.
MRace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2009, 11:17 AM   #43
M3it
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: OC
Posts: 38
My Ride: '02M3,325it,330Ci
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoE46s View Post
Not that it "won't" let you, it's just very slow to react to the trottle action as it trys to figure out just exactly is going on with the inputs it is getting from other systems it reads within the car...............
Bringing this issue back from the dead. My '01 330Ci will not rev when the brake is depressed. Clutch in or out has no effect. So the car will not allow heel toe or left foot braking (LFB). I've reset the ECU with my Peak code tool, no difference.

Is there a software fix for the e-throttle?
Is the car in some sort of limp mode?
Any thing to do with the clutch stop (prob not as it did it before)?
Worse case I'll unplug the brake switch when Solo racing.

Any one else with this issue?

Thanks,

Rick
M3it is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2009, 02:08 PM   #44
vaio76109
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 8,828
My Ride: Race Cars
I've only had that problem when bedding in brake pads where I was riding the brake to get the pads up to temp. The car would be fine, then after 2-3s of it the engine would cut power. Never had that problem doing HT.
vaio76109 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2009, 03:51 PM   #45
325rider
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 2,567
My Ride: gone, not forgotten
Send a message via AIM to 325rider
After skimming this thread there is so much mis-information and bad english I'm not patient enough to make a helpful post.
__________________


Schrick 264/248 | Ebay Headers | AA dyno tune | SSR GT2 18x9 | 3.46 | Full OEM Mtech 2

My Fitness YouTube Channel!!! Thanks for all the support I am GRATEFUL

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCozwn8gNwXQVuG0se8cTpUQ
325rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2009, 11:45 PM   #46
FTWeisse
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Michelle Ryan's Feet
Posts: 2,878
My Ride: has no hip-hop rimz
EL OH EL
__________________
***JEREMY DAVID LEONARD SMITH (1987-2008)***
FTWeisse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2009, 12:30 PM   #47
AL330CI
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: NorCal
Posts: 339
My Ride: 330Ci
Can't heel-and-toe worth a dam with DBW equiped non-Ms. The ECU/DME is just not fast enough to capture the input resolutions contained within a quick blip of the throttle. Try this exercise. While driving on the highway. Depress the clutch and give the throttle a quick jab all the way to the floor and let go in one quick motion. At most your RPM will spike 2k RPM. Now if you have Adam's (aka pei330ci) car then its a different story.

Last edited by AL330CI; 04-13-2009 at 12:36 PM.
AL330CI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2009, 12:33 PM   #48
vaio76109
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 8,828
My Ride: Race Cars
Quote:
Originally Posted by AL330CI View Post
Can't heel-and-toe worth a dam with DBW equiped non-Ms. The ECU/DME is just not fast enough to capture the input resolutions contained within a quick blip of the throttle. Try this exercise. While driving on the highway. Depress the clutch and give the throttle a quick jab all the way to the floor and let go in one quick motion. At most your RPM will spike 2k RPM. Now if you have Adams (aka pei330ci) car then its a different story.
A lightweight flywheel helps a ton with regard to that.
vaio76109 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2009, 01:40 PM   #49
FTWeisse
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Michelle Ryan's Feet
Posts: 2,878
My Ride: has no hip-hop rimz
Quote:
Originally Posted by AL330CI View Post
Can't heel-and-toe worth a dam with DBW equiped non-Ms. The ECU/DME is just not fast enough to capture the input resolutions contained within a quick blip of the throttle. Try this exercise. While driving on the highway. Depress the clutch and give the throttle a quick jab all the way to the floor and let go in one quick motion. At most your RPM will spike 2k RPM. Now if you have Adam's (aka pei330ci) car then its a different story.
Maybe it's a different story with me because I have "software"...but I doubt it makes that much of a difference. On track (or on street, for that matter) I've never had a problem...downshifts have always been quick and crisp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vaio76109 View Post
A lightweight flywheel helps a ton with regard to that.
It does...but it's still not hard to do in a DBW car...I'm sure you know all about it.
__________________
***JEREMY DAVID LEONARD SMITH (1987-2008)***
FTWeisse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2009, 09:54 PM   #50
Activ3
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Orlando/Miami
Posts: 6,360
My Ride: gets DRIVEN.
Send a message via AIM to Activ3
<3 teh cable
__________________
-David www.e46nonm.com | My Videos
2000 328i - Custom Turbo tuned by AA

Activ3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2009, 07:39 PM   #51
Tangent_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: San Jacinto, CA
Posts: 1,985
My Ride: '01 330i
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3it View Post
Bringing this issue back from the dead. My '01 330Ci will not rev when the brake is depressed. Clutch in or out has no effect. So the car will not allow heel toe or left foot braking (LFB). ...
Strange. My '01 330i lets me do it just fine and it's running factory programming. I try to practice heel-toe (sort of) as just a routine part of my day-to-day driving just to make it second nature and the engine revs with the brake applied exactly as it does without.

I could use some tips though. I put the "sort of" after the heel-toe in the above because I cant' really use my toes on the brake while using my heel on the gas. I'm not a mutant or anything, but apparently my feet naturally point toes-out more than most people. Putting toes on the brake and heel on the gas is too much of a contortion for me to do so I use the left side of my foot on the brake, and right side on the gas and I roll my foot to the right to blip the throttle. This works fine for the light to moderate braking on the street, but I suspect that under heavier braking during auto-x or track days that I wouldn't be able to easily roll my foot off the throttle after the blip. Gas+brake at the same time with the clutch out doesn't exactly seem like a recipe for a smooth downshift or for braking power. Is there something else I should be trying?
__________________
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/signaturepics/sigpic70081_4.gif
Tangent_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2009, 08:16 PM   #52
AL330CI
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: NorCal
Posts: 339
My Ride: 330Ci
Using the actual heel and toe (even though it is called that) is quite difficult to accomplish smoothly. It's a lot easier to just use the left portion of your right foot to brake and the roll the right portion of the same foot to blip the throttle without using your heel. That's how I've done it on all my manual cars. Unfortunately, on my DBW 330Ci there is a delay in the rev response. This makes it very hard to "heel-and-toe" smoothly without deliberately thinking about it. I've been driving a manual cars for more the 20 years with cable throttle. My current commuter car is a manual Civic and I use the "heel-and-toe" method daily without thinking aobut it. So I don't think it's my lack of practice.
AL330CI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2009, 10:38 AM   #53
ledfut
Registered User
 
ledfut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: W Hartford, CT
Posts: 346
My Ride: '99 328i
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoE46s View Post
I've found just a huge difference between the coupe (pre and post Dinan), my MINI S, and the Panoz Racing School cars.

Even now, the coupe does not "blip" up as quickly as the MINI S, while the carburated Ford V8s in the Panoz cars "blip" up instantaniously...........
There is quite a bit of difference between a stock BMW with a heavy flywheel, and a Panoz with likely a very light flywheel, in terms of how fast the revs accel and decel. It's much easier to blip a car designed for road-racing rather than a car designed as a daily driver.
ledfut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2009, 11:21 AM   #54
mrshelley
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bethlehem, PA
Posts: 914
My Ride: 2004 330i
I find it interesting that this "delay" in the DBW system still comes up from time to time. As you all know, I have a 330 and a Z4 that runs in Koni Challenge. Both cars have a factory ECU and the only modification is the off the shelf Shark Injector. That's it. Nothing else. To date, I have never had a driver complain about a delay in the throttle or a problem with matching the revs during downshifting. Both cars even run the stock flywheel and clutch assembly.

Last night I was looking at the data from the 330 at Homestead. Jeff Segal qualified the car 4th. He was running 135 going into turn one and slowed down to 67 within 6.3 seconds. This was all done while the front brake pressure was around 1500 to 2500 psi. Each blip of the throttle takes 0.32 sec. So to maintain at least 1500 psi of front brake pressure, his foot is obviously on the brake. Since the throttle position shows an increase during downshifts, obviously he's matching revs with the throttle. As for the Z4, it's no different.

So, if there is a problem with this, I need to thank my lucky stars that it have not reared it's ugly head.
__________________
mrshelley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2009, 01:12 PM   #55
FTWeisse
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Michelle Ryan's Feet
Posts: 2,878
My Ride: has no hip-hop rimz
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrshelley View Post
I find it interesting that this "delay" in the DBW system still comes up from time to time. As you all know, I have a 330 and a Z4 that runs in Koni Challenge. Both cars have a factory ECU and the only modification is the off the shelf Shark Injector. That's it. Nothing else. To date, I have never had a driver complain about a delay in the throttle or a problem with matching the revs during downshifting. Both cars even run the stock flywheel and clutch assembly.
I've had the same "luck." I've never driven a DBW E46 with any sort of significant problem. All the cars I've driven have been fine. I almost feel like this is a myth.
__________________
***JEREMY DAVID LEONARD SMITH (1987-2008)***
FTWeisse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2009, 02:12 PM   #56
M3it
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: OC
Posts: 38
My Ride: '02M3,325it,330Ci
Quote:
Originally Posted by FTWeisse View Post
I've had the same "luck." I've never driven a DBW E46 with any sort of significant problem. All the cars I've driven have been fine. I almost feel like this is a myth.
No Myth, my '01 330Ci throttle goes DEAD if you press the brake pedal. No problem to heel-toe or LFB our DBW '02 M3.

As is, I'm holding up the build until the issue is resolved. I will try disconnecting the brake switch later, hopefully there is a separate wire to the ECU and the brake lights.
__________________

Dunlop Tires / GreenFilter / ChaseCam in car video / Bilstein shocks / Enkei wheels
M3it is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2009, 05:06 PM   #57
mrshelley
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bethlehem, PA
Posts: 914
My Ride: 2004 330i
Your brake light switch is a hall unit. The wire from it runs to your ABS unit and the headlight switch. The ABS unit uses the CAN to communicate to the DME that you pushed the brake. Now, the throttle position does go to zero when you push the brake but it takes just over 2 seconds to do so. The same is for my TDI Jetta.

So for some reason, my car, the 4 other 330's I've built for ST and my Z4 seem to not have a problem with the matching of revs during downshifts. My car runs a MK20 ASC unit because it's really old, the other car I built had a MK20 DSC unit on it (the one over on the passenger side) and then two that had the MK60 DSC. The DME's have been the MS43.0 and MS45.1. As for the Z4, it has the MK60 DSC with a MS45.0. Honestly, that pretty much covered the E46 range when it comes to what they have offered.

If you are really paranoid, then cut the brake light wire that goes to the ABS unit. That way, you'll still have brake lights but the ABS/DSC/DME will have no idea that the brake lights are on.
__________________
mrshelley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2009, 01:27 AM   #58
Xcelratr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: So Cal - 310
Posts: 958
My Ride: 04 330Ci ZHP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tangent_ View Post
I could use some tips though. I put the "sort of" after the heel-toe in the above because I cant' really use my toes on the brake while using my heel on the gas. I'm not a mutant or anything, but apparently my feet naturally point toes-out more than most people. Putting toes on the brake and heel on the gas is too much of a contortion for me to do so I use the left side of my foot on the brake, and right side on the gas and I roll my foot to the right to blip the throttle. This works fine for the light to moderate braking on the street, but I suspect that under heavier braking during auto-x or track days that I wouldn't be able to easily roll my foot off the throttle after the blip. Gas+brake at the same time with the clutch out doesn't exactly seem like a recipe for a smooth downshift or for braking power. Is there something else I should be trying?
Most street cars I've driven on tracks require me to brake with the left side of the ball of my foot, and roll my ankle to blip the throttle with basically the entire right side of my foot. It's a big motion (or at least it feels that way) and with any fuel injected car, it has to be a pretty deliberate motion, but I've always gotten used to it and it's worked out fine.

The only car I've ever been able to truly heel/toe by braking with the toes and blipping the throttle mostly with my heel was a Formula Mazda. The pedals were just positioned such that it worked.

So I think your method is fine if it works for you. You just have to do it enough that you minimize the amount of brain power it takes to do it. The biggest challenge is not having the movement of your foot to the throttle affect the accuracy of your brake pressure modulation.
__________________
----------------------------------------------
Quote:
As a juror, do you think the trial was a publicity stunt?

Yes
----------------------------------------------
Xcelratr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2009, 03:37 AM   #59
FTWeisse
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Michelle Ryan's Feet
Posts: 2,878
My Ride: has no hip-hop rimz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xcelratr View Post
The only car I've ever been able to truly heel/toe by braking with the toes and blipping the throttle mostly with my heel was a Formula Mazda. The pedals were just positioned such that it worked.
How did you get to drive a Formula Mazda??? Please PM me with more info. Thanks.
__________________
***JEREMY DAVID LEONARD SMITH (1987-2008)***
FTWeisse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2009, 10:45 AM   #60
Xcelratr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: So Cal - 310
Posts: 958
My Ride: 04 330Ci ZHP
Quote:
Originally Posted by FTWeisse View Post
How did you get to drive a Formula Mazda??? Please PM me with more info. Thanks.
Before I was seduced by the dark side and became a banker, I worked in the auto parts business, a big part of what we did was racer supply. One of our vendors was a fairly high profile safety equipment mfg with sponsorship deals with several driving schools.

They held a drawing for a high performance driving school with Panoz at Road Atlanta and I won. Trying to arrange it dragged on and on, so I asked the vendor if I could go to Russell instead. My driving/racing/instructing experience was enough for Russell to waive the prereqs on their racing schools, so I did their 3 day Advanced Road Racing school. All 3 days were in a Formula Russell (their name for the Formula Mazdas they used) at Sears Point. It was an incredible experience, I learned sooooo much.

I'd driven FF cars at two different Bondurant courses. One was Lap The Oval at PIR, which was fun. But it wasn't real instruction-heavy, which was a bummer because the chief instructor was Johnny O'Connell. I'd also spent 1.5 days on the West Track at Firebird in an FF after driving it for a day in a Mustang. While those were great experiences and I went fast and learned a lot, driving the FM for 3 days at Sears Point was simply amazing. I'm such a dork I still sometimes watch my icc dvd. lol

It should be noted though (and based on your enthusiasm, perhaps this is a source of confusion) that the school used original FMs. The car I drove was NOT a Pro FM like what's used in the Star Mazda series. The Pro cars are much quicker, newer tech and sexier to boot.

Russell now uses monocoque chassis that are probably way cooler than the car I drove.

__________________
----------------------------------------------
Quote:
As a juror, do you think the trial was a publicity stunt?

Yes
----------------------------------------------
Xcelratr is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Censor is ON





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
(c) 1999 - 2011 performanceIX Inc - privacy policy - terms of use