DIY: Auto <---> 5 Speed Swap Lots of Pixs!!!

323 sedan. thanx for the info.

where are all the pictures?

They are still all there.

Jared

Any luck getting rid of the SES code caused by the swap?

just curious.. as I understand it:

1) if you leave the EGS connected, because the EGS has no connection to an actual auto transmission, it sends a signal to the ECU resulting in an SES/CEL w/ fault code.

2) if you disconnect the EGS, somehow DSC and ABS become upset. Perhaps because DSC/ABS talk to the EGS in some fashion.

In either case, couldn't you just look at the wiring diagram and figure out what signal it's looking for and simulate it? As far as I know, all the electronics are digital except for a few sensors. Point being, digital signals are relatively easy to simulate as they are either on or off. Although I doubt it, even if it did require some sort of bit pattern, like a digital device address code, that shouldn't be too hard to accomplish with a programmable chip.

What is the actual missing signal?

BTW: awesome write-up!!! too many people freak out about doing such a swap, but it's been done by many. hopefully this write-up will help other's lose the fear.

Did the jack stands provide enough clearance to move the transmission out from under the car? Or was there something else involved in getting the transmission out from under the car. from the pictures, it looks like it would barely clear it.

Originally Posted by bimmerZ5

just curious.. as I understand it:

1) if you leave the EGS connected, because the EGS has no connection to an actual auto transmission, it sends a signal to the ECU resulting in an SES/CEL w/ fault code.

2) if you disconnect the EGS, somehow DSC and ABS become upset. Perhaps because DSC/ABS talk to the EGS in some fashion.

In either case, couldn't you just look at the wiring diagram and figure out what signal it's looking for and simulate it? As far as I know, all the electronics are digital except for a few sensors. Point being, digital signals are relatively easy to simulate as they are either on or off. Although I doubt it, even if it did require some sort of bit pattern, like a digital device address code, that shouldn't be too hard to accomplish with a programmable chip.

What is the actual missing signal?

You are oversimplfying the problem. This is the equaivalent of saying you could simulate a television show over the air. Afterall its only digital signals...

Its quite likely the interface is CANbus. Fortunately if it is, it is more than likely J1939. You would first have to place a micro with a canbus controller and transceiver onto the bus of a working auto and then gather the data while driving and try to determine the application from the packets. Once you have determined the application layer you could then "simulate it" with your own.This is not a trivial task.

Originally Posted by HighVoltage

You are oversimplfying the problem. This is the equaivalent of saying you could simulate a television show over the air. Afterall its only digital signals...

Its quite likely the interface is CANbus. Fortunately if it is, it is more than likely J1939. You would first have to place a micro with a canbus controller and transceiver onto the bus of a working auto and then gather the data while driving and try to determine the application from the packets. Once you have determined the application layer you could then "simulate it" with your own.This is not a trivial task.

Actually, that's not an accurate analogy. For one, a television show has a analog source, which is then compressed (MPEG) into digital form. Secondly, if you just wanted to replay it, you could simply copy the digital format... hence, why it is so easy for people to copy movies and share over the internet. Of course, assuming no cryptographic challenges are in place.. and as far as I know, CAN-bus is NOT encrypted. In our case, we just want to "replay", so it is easy.

Granted, I'm not trying to pick an argument with you, but I think you might be over complicating the issue.

If the issue is on the CAN-bus, that's actually a fairly simple protocol. It is broadcast based, and a digital protocol based on 12V representing a 0 bit, and 0V representing a 1 bit. The physical mechanism is identical to the K-Bus, and even I-Bus, though the application level protocol might be slightly different. But, I don't know any further detail, and I'm not sure what J1939 is??

If it really is the CAN-bus, that is easy to tap into. It's easy to make a simple circuit that connects to the bus and a serial port on a computer. Once you have that setup, you can sniff the wire and figure out what needs to be replayed. A simple program can be written to do this. Anyone can do this with a few parts (maybe $25 worth) from radioshack and a computer.

But let's step back for a moment. In scenario #1, the EGS isn't happy that the transmission is missing. I would bet (name your wager) that the signal between the EGS and transmission is digital, but not a protocol like CAN-bus. If you fooled the EGS to be happy, the EGS should talk to the rest of the car as if the world couldn't be better. Maybe it's just a matter of sending the "D" signal to the EGS so it knows you're ready to go? I've seen a wiring diagram for a 5L40-E between the trans and the EGS, it's digital, but very simple.

In scenario #2, though I know nothing more about it, if CAN-bus were to be involved, this is where I think it would be involved; talking between the EGS and ABS/DSC modules. And if this is the case, you can observe the communication on the CAN-bus on a normal auto car, then compare it to the manual converted car and see what messages are missing. Replay these messages and see if that makes the DSC/ABS happy. Again, replaying is easy... "copy" and then "paste" the bits back onto the wire.

Honestly though, we need to know more about what is really going on in either scenarios and how things are connected. Where's the wiring diagram? I just don't know enough here.... but having messed with the electronic system in BMWs, the fact that so much of it is digital makes it easier to "hack" and work with. This is certainly much easier than people hacking the new iPhone.

Originally Posted by bimmerZ5

Actually, that's not an accurate analogy. For one, a television show has a analog source, which is then compressed (MPEG) into digital form. Secondly, if you just wanted to replay it, you could simply copy the digital format... hence, why it is so easy for people to copy movies and share over the internet. Of course, assuming no cryptographic challenges are in place.. and as far as I know, CAN-bus is NOT encrypted. In our case, we just want to "replay", so it is easy.

Granted, I'm not trying to pick an argument with you, but I think you might be over complicating the issue.

Enough of the analogy.... It was only meant to provide a simple example for anyone who may be reading this boring speil. Please dont start quibbling on the irrelevant..

I have worked with various CANbus protocols for well over 7 years (J1939, DeviceNet, CANopen, etc). From industrial based applications in the petroleum industry to semi-conductor manufacturing. I assure you, you are oversimplifying the problem.

If the issue is on the CAN-bus, that's actually a fairly simple protocol. It is broadcast based, and a digital protocol based on 12V representing a 0 bit, and 0V representing a 1 bit. The physical mechanism is identical to the K-Bus, and even I-Bus, though the application level protocol might be slightly different. But, I don't know any further detail, and I'm not sure what J1939 is??

Then you should probably stop right there...You are speaking from ignorance. J1939 is a CANbus protocol spec'd by SAE. CANbus does not have the same physical layer as Kbus or BMW's derivative of Kbus: Ibus.

If it really is the CAN-bus, that is easy to tap into. It's easy to make a simple circuit that connects to the bus and a serial port on a computer. Once you have that setup, you can sniff the wire and figure out what needs to be replayed. A simple program can be written to do this. Anyone can do this with a few parts (maybe $25 worth) from radioshack and a computer.

Please dont attempt do this... Until you understand some of the critical aspects of CANbus you could induce serious issues on the network.

But let's step back for a moment. In scenario #1, the EGS isn't happy that the transmission is missing. I would bet (name your wager) that the signal between the EGS and transmission is digital, but not a protocol like CAN-bus. If you fooled the EGS to be happy, the EGS should talk to the rest of the car as if the world couldn't be better. Maybe it's just a matter of sending the "D" signal to the EGS so it knows you're ready to go? I've seen a wiring diagram for a 5L40-E between the trans and the EGS, it's digital, but very simple.

Ill take that bet. Theres enough evidence to support the claim that the communication layer is indeed CANbus just from a cursory search of google. It makes sense. CANbus has proven to be very robust in these kind of applications and it already has a predefined protocol available: J1939. A CANbus based derivative of J1708/J1587.

http://www.continentalimports.com/ser_ic100076.html
http://www.bba-reman.com/content.asp...otive_industry

The physical layer for most CANbus based protocols is a simple 2-wire, differential bus.

In scenario #2, though I know nothing more about it, if CAN-bus were to be involved, this is where I think it would be involved; talking between the EGS and ABS/DSC modules. And if this is the case, you can observe the communication on the CAN-bus on a normal auto car, then compare it to the manual converted car and see what messages are missing. Replay these messages and see if that makes the DSC/ABS happy. Again, replaying is easy... "copy" and then "paste" the bits back onto the wire.

Again you are speaking from ignorance here. It is not quite that simple.

Honestly though, we need to know more about what is really going on in either scenarios and how things are connected. Where's the wiring diagram? I just don't know enough here.... but having messed with the electronic system in BMWs, the fact that so much of it is digital makes it easier to "hack" and work with. This is certainly much easier than people hacking the new iPhone.

No its not. This is the equivalent of an industrial application not commerical. Although the system may seem simpler there are far more perilous issues with "hacking" the BMW CANbus. We are specifically discussing the communication between two of the major drivetrain components. With the iPhone you dont have to worry about causing a catastrophic failure on a nearly 2-ton moving vehicle @ 60+ mph.

HighVoltage: ok, dude... first, thanks for the links to more information. I fully admit, I don't know much about CAN-bus. I've messed with K-Bus/I-bus, but not CANbus. Let's not be so negative here, i may fully admit i'm ignorant about CAN-bus, but if you know enough, why not offer something useful instead of "it's complicated?"

Regarding EGS and CANbus, i'm in total agreement with you that EGS talks over CANbus to the other modules. What I'm saying is, I don't think between the EGS and transmission is CAN-bus. From the ATSG manual for the 5L40-E transmission (don't have info on the ZF implementation, my guess something similar):

This is the pin out for the transmission connector to the EGS:

Pin - Description
1 - output speed sensor (+)
2 - internal mode switch N
3 - output speed sensor (-)
4 - internal mode switch supply
5 - 4-5 shift solenoid
6 - TFT sensor (-)
7 - internal mode switch B
8 - pressure control solenoid (-)
9 - 2-3 shift solenoid
10 - TFT sensor (+)
11 - internal mode switch P
12 - not used
13 - pressure control solenoid (+)
14 - 1-2 shift solenoid
15 - input speed sensor (-)
16 - internal mode switch A
17 - solenoid power in
18 - input speed sensor (+)
19 - internal mode switch C
20 - TCC solenoid

If you close circuits B,P, and N, this tells the EGS you're in neutral. If it complains about one of the sensor signals, you can simulate something.. e.g., give pin 6 & 10 2.2kOhms and the EGS will think the transmission is at 30Celcius. Given that, I don't see why one couldn't find some combination of signals to allow the EGS to still reside connected in the car but remain dormant and happily talk CAN-bus on the other side of the EGS to the ABS/DSC or whatever else is connected.

Originally Posted by bimmerZ5

HighVoltage: ok, dude... first, thanks for the links to more information. I fully admit, I don't know much about CAN-bus. I've messed with K-Bus/I-bus, but not CANbus. Let's not be so negative here, i may fully admit i'm ignorant about CAN-bus, but if you know enough, why not offer something useful instead of "it's complicated?"

Perhaps that is the problem. Maybe another misguided analogy is necessary. If a very young child asked you why the sky is blue could you boil down the physics to a point their current education level could understand it? Theres a process of education to follow in order to effectively communicate the problem and subsequent solution. What I said IMHO is far more useful than a injecting an introductory course on CANbus and J1939 into this thread. If your are going to have a stand alone embedded module sitting on the network emulating the communication of the EGS, the scope of the project wont fit in a paragraph or two.

Regarding EGS and CANbus, i'm in total agreement with you that EGS talks over CANbus to the other modules. What I'm saying is, I don't think between the EGS and transmission is CAN-bus. From the ATSG manual for the 5L40-E transmission (don't have info on the ZF implementation, my guess something similar):

This is the pin out for the transmission connector to the EGS:

Pin - Description
1 - output speed sensor (+)
2 - internal mode switch N
3 - output speed sensor (-)
4 - internal mode switch supply
5 - 4-5 shift solenoid
6 - TFT sensor (-)
7 - internal mode switch B
8 - pressure control solenoid (-)
9 - 2-3 shift solenoid
10 - TFT sensor (+)
11 - internal mode switch P
12 - not used
13 - pressure control solenoid (+)
14 - 1-2 shift solenoid
15 - input speed sensor (-)
16 - internal mode switch A
17 - solenoid power in
18 - input speed sensor (+)
19 - internal mode switch C
20 - TCC solenoid

If you close circuits B,P, and N, this tells the EGS you're in neutral. If it complains about one of the sensor signals, you can simulate something.. e.g., give pin 6 & 10 2.2kOhms and the EGS will think the transmission is at 30Celcius. Given that, I don't see why one couldn't find some combination of signals to allow the EGS to still reside connected in the car but remain dormant and happily talk CAN-bus on the other side of the EGS to the ABS/DSC or whatever else is connected.

This side of the node provides its own set problems.

Is it just inputs or outputs as well? What kind of I/O are you dealing with? Are the inputs digital, analog, mixed, dry contact, etc? If analog what is the range and what does each level represent? If digital what is the encoding sequence, bit widths and rate? How does the EGS interpret this data?

You have to consider that the EGS may not be just a simple data gathering node. It could very well be monitoring the I/O and making local decisions that determine the information it will communicate over the network. This complicates the issue as you have to then consider the impact of the I/O behavour. Is the timing between events relevant? What are these events?

To do this right you effectively need to reverse engineer the EGS. Treat it like a black box. There are two sides. The CANbus and I/O to the transmission. The first step in the process is to find a working system. Then tap into the CANbus network and monitor the I/O at the same time. Try to obtain a correlation between the packets and the I/O behavour.

Once you believe you have fully excersied the I/O and characterized the behavour of the node, you then choose to either emulate the CANbus side or the I/O side. Having designed systems just like this, I would venture you would find it much cheaper to emulate the CANbus side.

Its a lot of work. You may get lucky and be able to stab a pullup or current limiting resistor here or there on the I/O side or throw a pulse or two around but you would never really be sure what the impact is on the system without throughly testing the unit.

If you were really serious about this, by far the most effective approach other than gathering and installing the system actually intended for a manual transmission is go find someone on the design team and see what you could get out them. A case of beer is whole hell of alot cheaper than anything else mentioned so far.

Originally Posted by bimmerZ5

just curious.. as I understand it:

1) if you leave the EGS connected, because the EGS has no connection to an actual auto transmission, it sends a signal to the ECU resulting in an SES/CEL w/ fault code.

2) if you disconnect the EGS, somehow DSC and ABS become upset. Perhaps because DSC/ABS talk to the EGS in some fashion.

In either case, couldn't you just look at the wiring diagram and figure out what signal it's looking for and simulate it? As far as I know, all the electronics are digital except for a few sensors. Point being, digital signals are relatively easy to simulate as they are either on or off. Although I doubt it, even if it did require some sort of bit pattern, like a digital device address code, that shouldn't be too hard to accomplish with a programmable chip.

What is the actual missing signal?

BTW: awesome write-up!!! too many people freak out about doing such a swap, but it's been done by many. hopefully this write-up will help other's lose the fear.

Did the jack stands provide enough clearance to move the transmission out from under the car? Or was there something else involved in getting the transmission out from under the car. from the pictures, it looks like it would barely clear it.

Yes there was enough clearance with only jackstands, I've done a few of these on some E30's as well.

As for the Can-bus issue it really isn't as simple as it seems (As High Voltage says), I did infact try leaving certain pinouts connected and disconnected. In the end I made some CEL's disappear while others remained etc.. I only spent a little time on it however.

Jared

What a great write up! Appreciates your effort to put together all those pictures to help out many people. I am thinking about replacing auto trans by myself for 2001 330i because of no reverse issue. Unfortunately some of pictures on 1st page are not showing up specially where tran was lowered. Would you putting togeter a downloadable file or e-mail me pictures for that part. I put my car on jack stand and drive-on ramp. I bought a trans jack from Harbor Freight ($99). It has 8 inch minimum height and I do not think I have enough clearance.
Thanks for your help in advance.

Originally Posted by dslboomer

What a great write up! Appreciates your effort to put together all those pictures to help out many people. I am thinking about replacing auto trans by myself for 2001 330i because of no reverse issue. Unfortunately some of pictures on 1st page are not showing up specially where tran was lowered. Would you putting togeter a downloadable file or e-mail me pictures for that part. I put my car on jack stand and drive-on ramp. I bought a trans jack from Harbor Freight ($99). It has 8 inch minimum height and I do not think I have enough clearance.
Thanks for your help in advance.

I wouldn't even worry about using a transmission jack, for it may be to bulky with the amount of clearance you have. If you get the car up high enough I only used ramps and 13 inch jack stands in the rear on a DIRT DRIVEWAY ou will have enough clearance.

And the pictures loaded fine for me, not sure why some people are having issues viewing them, maybe you need to just reload them.

Heres a link right to that post.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showpos...5&postcount=10

Jared

updates on SES fix?

Pictures don't show up sometimes cause there are too many pictures on a page. I wish I could see everything cause my auto trans just blew.

this may be an odd question but if i were just swapping out my focked up tranny in my car now with another auto could i pretty much just take one out and bolt the new one right up? if there anything i have to do with the gearing or anything? my reverse is gone and im buying a new tranny asap. pm me if you would like id really appreciate your help

ahh. the pictures arent coming up! about to pick up my tranny tomorrow and get this rollin!!

im going to pm you if thats ok.

Just a question for you guys that have swapped. When you are in gear and then press the clutch, do rpm's increase a little and delay to drop? I am having this problem making it difficult to shift fast

sounds like a CDV issue? Ill take a look next time i drive but i dont think my car does that, but i know i have a modified clutch delay valve