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Old 09-07-2006, 12:23 PM   #1
laurentiucantar
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supercharge vs normal aspirated

what do you think?which method of engine tuning will make engine life shorter?can a NA engine be as powerfull as a Supercharged engine in stage one?
i mean NA with cams +ecu+headers+sport kats+sport rear exhaust and withour resonator,cold air intake,forged pistons etc
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Old 09-07-2006, 01:09 PM   #2
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stage 1 NA will only be as fast as it sounds.
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Old 09-07-2006, 01:39 PM   #3
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In short, FI is actually easier and cheaper on the engine than NA to reach the same power numbers.



In detail, more engine power is made by increasing one or more of 4 things: Bore, Stroke, RPM, and Pressure.

Bore (increasing the cylinder diameter along with rings and usually larger pistons): Our cars have fairly thin walled cylinders so boring is generally out of the question for reliability's sake.

Stroke (decreasing the connecting rod lengths to create more volume in the cylinders): It has been done before on other BMW engines, but has to be done very carefully and has mixed results. It lowers the compression ratio which results in a less responsive engine, but allows the ability to run higher RPM, boost, fuel quantity, and timing as well. There is also the issue of "squish" where the piston heads are designed to squish the air/fuel mixture to the center of the combustion chamber for a better burn. Stroking without perfect squish makes for a less than perfect burn. At a minimum requires pistons, rods, bearings, rings, and a lot of tuning.

RPM (increase the RPM the engine can sustain): RPM is the KING of NA tuning. There is a reason Indy cars and Motorcycles run 14-18k rpm. To get a significant gain from rpm power, you would need to strengthen the valvetrain, bearings, and likely require a lot more lightweight internals such as pistons, rods, wrist pins, valves, etc. Raising RPM much without doing so will result in reciprocating failures, floating valves, and snapping con rods, ALL BAD. It is incredibly expensive and absolutely HAS to be done correctly because it is the most stressful part of an engine's duty. At your standard 6,500rpm redline now, each piston is moving up and down over 100 TIMES A SECOND. Every 10% RPM increase will add like 40% more stress to the engine.

Pressure (increasing the engine's ability to pump air/fuel): Here comes Forced Induction, Cams, Headers, Intakes, etc. An engine is an air pump and anything we can do to make it process that air quicker and more efficiently, the more power we will make. In the simplest terms, if we can make the engine breath twice as good, we will make twice the power. However, at moderate FI boost levels (say 8 psi) with optimal spark timing, the chamber peak pressures only increase by about 20% but make 50% more power without changing any internals. There is more to consider with FI such as cooling capacity, running proper fuels, paying attention to any ping and knock, and fuel economy but it is the simplest of the four with minimal risk and stress increases if done correctly.

For example, my ZHP makes over 345hp up from 235hp. To get there with NA would have cost a minimum of 3x as much as the SC does. Believe me, I wanted to go NA with this Project Car, but after lots of research it proved to be very cost prohibitive.

I hope this helps a little!
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Old 09-07-2006, 01:57 PM   #4
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marvel i recently discovered your website!!! your are the best teacher all around .your explaination of various forms of FI was crystal clear.the bible for noobie.MY330I.COM is a EXCELLENT website!!! thanks
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Old 09-07-2006, 02:04 PM   #5
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I learned the same way you are right now, I am glad it helps!

Never stop learning, there is always room for more.
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Old 09-07-2006, 02:14 PM   #6
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about stroke:to increase displacement :it needs SHORTER con rods???
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Old 09-07-2006, 02:17 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarvelPhx View Post
I learned the same way you are right now, I am glad it helps!

Never stop learning, there is always room for more.

I Agree 110%
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Old 09-07-2006, 02:24 PM   #8
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about stroke:to increase displacement :it needs SHORTER con rods???
Hint...

Think about what the connecting rods are attached to and how the length of the rods impacts piston travel (and therefore overall displacement).
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Old 09-07-2006, 02:32 PM   #9
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A couple of issues with shorter rod lengths are reduced dwell time and increased piston to rod angles. The former affects burn speed in a negitive way, the latter affects reliability in a negitive way. As with everything, increasing stroke is a trade off...
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Old 09-07-2006, 02:44 PM   #10
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so,
your 330ci zhp goes like an m3 stock wih the power you claimed for your car?i mean how fast it is?manual or step?
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Old 09-07-2006, 04:54 PM   #11
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so,
your 330ci zhp goes like an m3 stock wih the power you claimed for your car?i mean how fast it is?manual or step?
Do you mean my car?

If you do, it is a 2004 330i ZHP 6spd sedan with the ESS TX-2 8psi SC and I can pull on a stock M3 quite easily. I can't credit it all to the SC tho, I also have a 3.38 LSD which helps offset the redline benefit the M has.
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Old 09-08-2006, 04:51 AM   #12
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excuse me guys but i am french so i havent understand everything about increasing displacement and stroke .can someone sum it up for me with a sentance for 10 Year old kid???
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Old 09-08-2006, 06:55 AM   #13
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excuse me guys but i am french so i havent understand everything about increasing displacement and stroke .can someone sum it up for me with a sentance for 10 Year old kid???
Call me lazy but I'd rather point than explain this morning...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connecting_rod
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Old 09-08-2006, 03:47 PM   #14
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It really depends on your opinion, NA is fun because it's strictly motor, no boost, however I personally prefer boost to NA. because as mentioned yes it's somewhat cheaper but it adds a whole new view to the car, intercooler, blower, the sound of the car changes, etc. The biggest thing though at the end of the day is your budget. Do you have the money to build a a high compression motor with a built head and bottom end or do you have the cash for a bolt on s/c kit? It's all up to you- If you interested in adding an s/c to your car you're definitely in the right place.

-Chris
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Old 09-09-2006, 04:14 AM   #15
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i can buy another car.is not a cash problem.i just love my 330ci and i want to tune it up to be more dynamic.if i want to be very fast i will buy a subaru or a Lancer evo 9 and modify.the problem is i don't like this cars and i like only BMW's.BMW is a feeling and i hate 4*4 .it's for......
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Old 09-10-2006, 12:44 AM   #16
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^

lol- hey not everyone appreciates quality- haha
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Old 09-10-2006, 12:52 AM   #17
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Which S/C is the best bang for the buck?

Which is dead cheapest but reliable?

For me to save up 5,000 right now would be very unbelievably hard. I just don't have that kind of cash at any one time to drop on my car.
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Old 09-10-2006, 09:11 AM   #18
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Which S/C is the best bang for the buck?

Which is dead cheapest but reliable?

For me to save up 5,000 right now would be very unbelievably hard. I just don't have that kind of cash at any one time to drop on my car.
You'd really have to do some research to find out which kit fits your needs. As for price, $5,000 is about the cheapest FI kit you'll find for a BMW. Unless you're willing to go with a used kit, then you may be able to save up to 50% or more off the new price.
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Old 09-10-2006, 06:28 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by 2K5 325i View Post
Which S/C is the best bang for the buck?

Which is dead cheapest but reliable?

For me to save up 5,000 right now would be very unbelievably hard. I just don't have that kind of cash at any one time to drop on my car.
Honestly, when looking to s/c your car, the cheapest kit may not always be the best kit. I can definitely understand how hard it is to save up a large amount of cash and then drop it into your car, I had to save for 8 months non-stop, to get my kit. It's worth the effort, but if you're going to add an s/c to your car, do your research, find a kit you like, and save up, you'll be very happy with the end result. I'm sure you could work something out with Technik with 5k email Samir and just let him know chris sent you, maybe you guys can work something out-
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Old 09-10-2006, 06:53 PM   #20
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for 5K i'm pretty sure you can have a SK+ kit
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