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Bavarian Soundwerks' Mobile Electronics Forum
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Old 02-17-2007, 05:44 PM   #61
RSL
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I know the tweeters need to be that high for good stage height in these cars. I'd barely want to do it if they could go in the bottom of the A-pillars, definitely not in the middle of them like is needed in this app I am hoping HLCDs and *maybe* one or a pair of super tweeters on the front the rear view mirror will do well to raise it. Horns are kinda weak >18K Hz anyway, so it might kill 2 birds with one stone.

Yes, post pics of those door pods! I am not sure if sales/prices can be posted outside the classifieds, but if you can PM me the price too, I'd be curious
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Old 02-17-2007, 06:23 PM   #62
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Tweeters don't need to be that high in the door to get a good stage. From personal experience I believe it is better to get them as far away/equi-distant (sp?) as possible than higher up. That's why horns work well.

If you get the phasing and distances right, they can be pretty low and still give a good dash-level soundstage.

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Old 02-17-2007, 10:00 PM   #63
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I would figure they would at least need to be higher than the gauge cluster hump on the dash Mark?

OK, so I finally had time to cut the doors. All I can say is

Before I removed the baffle, I put some masking tape inside and drew a rough outline of the opening in the baffle to use as a guide.



I used a dremel with a cutoff wheel. It goes pretty quickly (<10 minutes). Of course be careful of the window track. I knew it was there and still got the driver side one pretty good. As I was cutting, it looked like I hadn't gotten through the door sheet metal yet, but I managed to get into the track a bit on one side. Which leads me to this tip:

I don't know why I only thought of it after the fact, but it would be a good idea to loosen the nut holding the window track to the top of the threads and at least push it back the ~ 1/4" to give it some clearance while cutting. It is REALLY close to the door sheet metal near where it bolts to the door.



I ended up following my guidelines on the sides and stopped at the "depth change" at the top. I used the angle of the indent across the top to meet up with the sides that I cut. After this, I used a sanding drum to smooth out any sharp corners and get rid of the rough edges all the way around the hole.



Once it was sanded, I taped the opening off from the inside and then around the outside so I could put 2 coats of enamel on the cut edge for rust protection...and of course aesthetics



Unfortunately, I forgot to take pics of it, but I cut 1" thick closed cell foam and glued it to the back of the baffles. When it was dry, I trimmed the edges to match the baffles and cut the appropriate angles so it fit tightly near the edges.



I was going to finish it off by installing a foam ring between the front of the mids and the door panels, but in my haste to hear the difference, I forgot all about it LOL. I am not sure it needs that after hearing it, but maybe I will do it anyway the next time I have the panels off.

I am not really sure what made the most difference: cutting the door or sealing off the baffle so it wasn't running in free air. Of course, I couldn't seal it off prior to cutting the door or it would've been a .01ft^3 sealed enclosure. In any case, the before and after is absolutely phenomenal! Me = one happy camper

There is SO MUCH more fullness to the sound and the midbass (which was nil before) is actually quite a lot now...probably even lower than midbass is a lot now. After I heard what the midbass sounded like, I took them off of the 90Hz high pass on the EQX and ran them full range (with the passives of course) to let low end roll off naturally. All I can say is wow! My wife came out and told me to turn it down because she was hearing the "thump thump thump" in the house (with the car doors closed). It's not rattling or anything, but some deadener will probably be in order just to help keep the sound "inside" and stiffen up the doors a bit.

I am really, really, really glad that I cut the doors....amazing difference!

I don't think the subs will be going in for another week or 2 (still need an amp for them), but maybe I'll start on the box next weekend...
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Old 02-17-2007, 10:49 PM   #64
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Sold!

I was waiting for your input on the sound difference and now I'm sold on this installation step.

Can you see if there is any chance of water issues with the coupe doors being cut? The sedan has the mid-bass drivers far lower in the cavity than the coupe it seems.

I only wish you made a template for the rest of us.

Lovin this thread!
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Old 02-18-2007, 12:10 AM   #65
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jvr, I can't say how much was from just cutting the doors since they were basically running free prior to that, but I have to say, it was like going from 4" mids to 8s There's just tons of low midrange, midbass and bass compared to before. What it also did was tear apart the imaging that I did have. It surprised me that it imaged pretty well to begin with and now I know why it did (mostly highs).

There is so much more lows now that I had to turn the tweets up from -6dB to -3dB and by the time I am done, it might be up 0 again. The EQX is still 0'd out, but even the limited EQing it can do will definitely come in handy now.

I'll keep an eye out for water inside, but it's mostly parked in the garage. I don't think "water" will get in (I have a coupe) so much as just humidty, which is why I painted the cuts in the door. The baffle is pretty much sealed to the door all around, so even if water did get in behind it, it should stay there.

I do have templates but, I made 2 of them and still tweaked the final MDF cuts. The major thing was around the cut for the clip so it wasn't so tight, but I still needed to do some angling/sanding to get it "perfect". The templates I made were cardboard (ie. thin) and once you get 1" thickness, it changes a little bit because you have to account for braces, angles and stuff deeper in the panel. I can pick one (they were pretty much the same), trace it and scan it to make a gif if you want. It should definitely get you a pretty close rough cut.
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Old 02-18-2007, 12:26 AM   #66
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I want to do this so bad, I just ordered my Rainbow Profi's and amp....I would love a gif of the trace, because want to do this. The only thing I'm worried about is hurting the speakers of mosture if there are issues with it. the humidity in FL is horrid at times, and I don't want problems.

Great, great job with those mdf brackets they look like something you could sell...hint, hint
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Old 02-18-2007, 01:06 AM   #67
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I lived in SFla for almost 30 years *cough* so I know your concern. If it helps, I never lost any speakers to water/humidity. I wouldn't want to run a speaker under a tap or something, but there's not really a whole bunch on a speaker that could get messed up from indirect exposure.

I'd like to know what those Profi's are like. I was contemplating the Kicks, but decided to go cheap and just pick up horns in not too distant future.

LOL, if I could find 1" thick MDF and had a band saw, I pop these baffles out in pairs at a time

I'll make a trace of the template tomorrow and try to get it scanned. It won't be a perfect drop-in fit, but it should definitely be a good starting point.
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Old 02-18-2007, 03:06 AM   #68
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So if I got it right, that's 3 layers of 3/4" mdf together right? or a 3/4" ring, then 2 1/2" layers?

Urg......I guess I might as well cut em. I don't think anyones compained about their doors getting any moisture in them, plus like you said being sealed will be great.
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Old 02-18-2007, 05:41 AM   #69
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Yeah, 2x 1/2" boards + 3/4" or thinner ring. Anything more than 1/2" on the boards (1" total) will be a little tough to fit into the panel without hitting certain places. 3/4" ring and you'll probably want to cut down that plastic angled ring inside the grill to almost the bottom like I did. With a 1/2" ring you'll probably still need to cut it, but not as far...and you'll be giving up some mounting depth and moving the speaker further behind the panel.

I should really try to get a better measure of the actual distance between the grill and the mid now that it's mounted. I was only able to do an "educated guesstimate" at something ~3/8" between the top of the speaker and the inside of the grill when using the 3/4" ring. The mids definitely aren't hitting on excursion, so it's enough whatever it is (gotta be close though).

I am attaching a gif that I made of the template for anyone brave enough to try to use it. I must have printed it out about 10 times before it finally matched up perfectly. I put a 10" wide line on top there because printers kinda do what they want even when you tell them to ignore resizing or margins.

- use at your own risk
- don't blame me if it's not "perfect" (I had to fine tune mine after cutting this shape)
- this is for a COUPE door panel
- fits on 8.5x11 paper
- landscape orientation
- margins set as small a possible on all sides
- do NOT scale to fit
- measure that 10" line once printed to kind of make sure the scale is right

NOTE: in PS, that line at the top is exactly 10" wide (.5" and 10.5" marks), but when I print it, it's more like 9-15/16" when I measure it. If it measures 9-15/16" like mine, you'll want to cut ON the template lines or on the OUTSIDE if you want to be safe (and don't mind a little filing/sanding). If it measures out to 10" printed, you'll probably want to cut on the INSIDE of the lines and it should be close. If it's not between 9-15/16" and 10" for whatever reason (printer/settings), it's probably going to be too far off to be usable.

HTH someone and good luck with it
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Old 02-18-2007, 09:15 AM   #70
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I applaud your efforts RSL! The information here should be enough to empower the rest of us to do as fine a job on our cars too.

The problem you describe, having to boost highs (now that you've cut the doors), is exactly the inverse problem I'm trying to solve in my car. I am not getting a good balance with my mid-bass mounted to the door panel as stock. I had these same speakers (a/d/s/ 335is) in two former E39's that have enclosures in the doors, and they sounded so much better than in the 3'er. I feel like I need to take a week off from work so I can get my system sorted out once and for all.

When I get into this I'll contribute any additional lessons learned, if any. Thanks again for your contributions!
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Old 02-18-2007, 11:05 AM   #71
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Awesome, thanks a BUNCH...I got it to print right 3rd time using photoshop. 9 15.5/16

I probably won't be using it until next weekend though....although maybe I'll cut them out this weekend.
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Old 02-18-2007, 11:55 AM   #72
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Oh and last question, how big is the MDF ring? I'm guessing ~6.5" wide, and and the cutout hole is...5.75"?

Thanks
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Old 02-18-2007, 12:31 PM   #73
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Hi guys just reading the post...nice install work !
On my previous BMW install i cut the metal to vent the midbass woofer and had some major moiture problem so i used a moisture guard and wave diffuser to improve the mid bass frequencies and to protect the speaker !
The product is available in the UK i will post some info on it ! But i guess its always raining over here !! LOL !
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Old 02-18-2007, 01:36 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jvr826
The problem you describe, having to boost highs (now that you've cut the doors), is exactly the inverse problem I'm trying to solve in my car. I am not getting a good balance with my mid-bass mounted to the door panel as stock. I had these same speakers (a/d/s/ 335is) in two former E39's that have enclosures in the doors, and they sounded so much better than in the 3'er. I feel like I need to take a week off from work so I can get my system sorted out once and for all.

When I get into this I'll contribute any additional lessons learned, if any. Thanks again for your contributions!
This should definitely help. Mounting to the panels isn't a good idea for sound no matter what and there is definitely an obscene amount of lows in my car now Absolutely post if you have anything to add.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adas
Oh and last question, how big is the MDF ring? I'm guessing ~6.5" wide, and and the cutout hole is...5.75"?
Yes, my rings are exactly 6.5" OD, but I did a roundover on the top because these mids aren't quite 6.5" and any extra space you can provide towards the front of the baffle won't hurt. As you'll see when you get in there, everything angles smaller as you go from the door toward the panel. ID on the ring just needs to be whatever your mid mounting hole dia. is. IIRC, mine were 5-1/2" or so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ash aziz
On my previous BMW install i cut the metal to vent the midbass woofer and had some major moiture problem so i used a moisture guard and wave diffuser to improve the mid bass frequencies and to protect the speaker !
The product is available in the UK i will post some info on it ! But i guess its always raining over here !! LOL !
You have a sedan don't you Ash? When I went back and looked at your pods, I realized how short the panel was. I think there's been some notions that the water problem with cut doors just might be an issue with 4-doors and not Coupes. I am going to wash mine today (Coupe), so if I see anything running anywhere inside, I'll report back for sure.

"Wave diffuser" = aperiodic membrane? A link to the weather barrier might be nice for those curious about it.
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Old 02-18-2007, 04:10 PM   #75
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hi yes my old install was in a salloon hence different type of install / door builds this time in a sealed enclosure...should be good will et you know once the car is done !
I will post all my install pics on a new section !
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Old 02-18-2007, 06:20 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Canuck328i View Post
Tweeters don't need to be that high in the door to get a good stage. From personal experience I believe it is better to get them as far away/equi-distant (sp?) as possible than higher up. That's why horns work well.
height cues start off around 3.5kHz or so - you do not need high tweeters for a high stage. What you do need is a tweeter with excellent off axis response and wide dispersion (think hiquphons - oh and I'm selling a pair )

Horns work mostly because the lens (or horn body) controls the dispersion. They also get everything from about 1khz and up playing from a single driver, and they do help to minimize pld's while maximizing path lengths.
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Old 02-18-2007, 07:36 PM   #77
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Thanks for posting the template... I'll be doing this during the week and will let you know how it goes. I was so disappointed with my mids after panel mounting... expected them to suck, but not as bad as they did. What did you tune you mids to after cutting the panel? 90hrz?
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Old 02-18-2007, 07:55 PM   #78
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Also, where did you pick up the closed cell foam? I know hobby stores and some fabric stores carry the foam I usually use, but not sure if that is closed cell.
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Old 02-18-2007, 10:00 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schnitzer323ci
Thanks for posting the template... I'll be doing this during the week and will let you know how it goes. I was so disappointed with my mids after panel mounting... expected them to suck, but not as bad as they did. What did you tune you mids to after cutting the panel? 90hrz?
No problem. Anyone who makes any tweaks to it should post their templates, or better yet, trace one of your baffles when done and post it. That's what I should've done, but they were already mounted

I ran 90Hz high pass at first because that's what it was already running and there was already tons more midbass. I quickly switched that to no HP (natural low end roll off), which did yield some very decent low end too, but was a tad sloppy on lower transients with the volume up so today I put it on the amp x-over for the time being and have it adjusted somewhere around 65-70Hz high pass. That cleaned it up a decent amount and still lets enough of the lows in so I will probably leave it around 70Hz even when the subs go in.

I got the foam from McMaster-Carr a while back for a different project. You really don't need a lot and open cell foam may work OK. If you can find weather stripping 1"-1.5" thick, that might do the trick too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcurley55
think hiquphons - oh and I'm selling a pair
Man, you just have all the good stuff, eh?
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Old 02-19-2007, 10:11 AM   #80
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Wow 70hrz... the door panel must be perfect as a box for the 6.5's. I had been running mine up at 120hrz because the midbass got so nasty below that and let my 12's make up the mids. This of course dragged my soundstage back quite a bit though so I had to jack up the highs in the front a ton. I think it will be much better with the door cut and sealed.

What are you using for rear fill? The stockers?
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