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Old 02-19-2007, 10:44 AM   #81
jvr826
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Originally Posted by schnitzer323ci View Post
Wow 70hrz... the door panel must be perfect as a box for the 6.5's. I had been running mine up at 120hrz because the midbass got so nasty below that and let my 12's make up the mids. This of course dragged my soundstage back quite a bit though so I had to jack up the highs in the front a ton. I think it will be much better with the door cut and sealed.

What are you using for rear fill? The stockers?
I had same problem, looking for this mod to fix it. I do not have any rear fill in my system. I removed the stock rear mid-bass drivers and covered with speaker cloth to vent more of the sub output into the cabin.

What I did in my former E39 install was use the factory mid-bass and just filtered the frequencies for a full-range signal (can't recall the settings) to them. This worked fine. In the E46 I think it's unnecessary.
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Old 02-19-2007, 11:22 AM   #82
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^Wow really? I've always thought (and agreed) that you needed at least some sort of rear fill to provide a good "surround" (for lack of a better word) sounding image. I've always just thrown some cheap 3 way coax's for all my rear fill in all my stereos.
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Old 02-19-2007, 01:42 PM   #83
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Yeah, they play with natural low roll off quite well in the door...go quite low with decent authority even on "bass" songs, but on complex musical songs, it is a bit sloppy on lower transients with the volume up real high. That's why I went from natural roll off on the bottom to a 65-70Hz high pass. It's clean there on everything I've tried so far, even at the highest volume.

My stock rears are still in, but disconnected. I will likely remove them when the subs go in as well to give ports into the cabin. Rear fill isn't necessary unless you are looking for like a "5.1" setup or want to do some kind of DSP that requires rear speakers for an effect. If you want all the sound focused in front of you for a good image/stage, anything producing directional sound behind you is going to distract from that, not to mention you've just doubled the potential for phase conflicts, tuning complexity, etc. When it comes to image/stage, the fewer point sources, the better and of course, you want them up front.

The subs really shouldn't drag your image backwards, but yours might be crossed over too high trying to make up for midbass?
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Old 02-19-2007, 03:32 PM   #84
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^ Yes they are definitely crossed over very high (90hrz)... which is great for rock music. Really punches you in the chest. My main reason for running them that high though is that they are the old kicker s12d solo barics which run in small (for 12's) .88ft^3 enclosures. Perfect for rock and other hard hitting mid-heavy sources. Only reason it drags image back is because as you state... from the front is better... and at the moment I have NO mids from the front. After doing the door cutting I anticipate a huge improvement in quality and should bring much more to the front of the car.

This is exactly the type of discussion I was looking for pertaining to the sound in an e46 and am happy to have stumbled upon some really knowledgeable sources in yourself, mark, and rcurley. Thanks again.
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Old 02-19-2007, 07:42 PM   #85
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I'm working on it rightnow, and the template is ALMOST perfect, like you said around the clip is the only problem. So after having everything ground out....I can not line the baffle to mount to the door for the life of me. I took a little shortcut that I saw I could get around, by cuting the ring hole in the right place first.

but anyway, I'll keep trying but getting it screwed in the right place is being a serious PITA
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Old 02-19-2007, 09:04 PM   #86
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Adam, that clip cutout doesn't need to be anywhere near that small. It will be the hang up on any forward/backward movement of the boards most likely when you are trying to test fit it, so if you open it up a little, that should give you some wiggle room. Also remember that I put angles on the edges of the board closest to the panel so it fits inside that angled "well" area better/without touching.

I got the boards mounted to the door first (after lining up inside the panel with masking tape on the door) and then trimmed/angled/rounded over/tweaked until the panels went on without any catches at all. That definitely took a few test fits and tweaks. Once that was done, I set the ring. Your way should work too, but trying to get the boards placed right with the ring on might make it a bit harder. It just seemed easier to me to leave the ring out of the equation to start, get the boards on the door and tweaked properly and then put the ring the only place it fit. If the panel fits with the boards alone and you know it and the panel doesn't fit when the ring is attached afterward, you know the ring is the problem. At least, that's the way I attacked it

Glad to hear that it helped to some extent. Just remember it took me a good bit of fine tuning here and there and test fitting to get it on the money. Once you get it set where it's all good and the panel goes on perfectly, trace that puppy and scan it for everyone else that comes after you

Quote:
^ Yes they are definitely crossed over very high (90hrz)... which is great for rock music. Really punches you in the chest. My main reason for running them that high though is that they are the old kicker s12d solo barics which run in small (for 12's) .88ft^3 enclosures. Perfect for rock and other hard hitting mid-heavy sources. Only reason it drags image back is because as you state... from the front is better... and at the moment I have NO mids from the front. After doing the door cutting I anticipate a huge improvement in quality and should bring much more to the front of the car.
Adam can chime in when he's done with his, but I'll tell ya, there is enough midbass and bass SPL coming from my mids to vibrate my jeans...even from just kick drums on rock songs
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Old 02-20-2007, 07:17 PM   #87
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Awesome...thanks!! That helped. Well I ground the crap out of everything in that area on the panel, and board and it fits now, I'm happy.

Did the ring test, seems like it fit perfect so I glued it

The driver side is up next, I did the cutout, and I will trace it onto paper....Problem is honestly I don't know how to make it like your trace, I'm not skilled like that lol.
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Old 02-20-2007, 07:35 PM   #88
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My progress, well I forgot to actually post that up^^ about 6 hours ago. Anyways, got both sides mounted to the doors. Passenger side is pretty much finished besides the hole in the door. Pretty sure I'm going to use a combination of MDF peices, dynamat xtreme, and Insulation foam tape(sp?)

Some pics, not much difference from yours...







It's a little more ghetto then the way you did it, but hey......I don't have 1/20th the experience so bear with me
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Old 02-20-2007, 11:49 PM   #89
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you guys - to deaden the baffle up a bit - use some non hardening modeling clay between your baffle and the door. Also, you can use it to help seal the voids where the baffle doesn't touch the door perfectly.

remember, the more mass you can add to a baffle, the better off you are
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Old 02-21-2007, 02:00 AM   #90
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Adam, looks good! I just put a small angle along that top edge where your niche is cut out. Those Rainbows should sound great in there when the door is cut and the baffle is sealed to it. Trust me, it will sound like total garbage until then. I was really disappointed with mine until I cut and sealed (lots of cancellations). I can't even explain how big of an improvement it was

If you have a scanner, trace the baffle on a paper, scan it, open it in Photoshop or similar and trace the lines on a clean background. If you can get it scanned, but don't have PS, send it to me and I will take care of making it look pretty for you

Rob, excellent point. It sure wouldn't hurt and would definitely be a good alternative to the foam for those who can't find any locally. Even stacking layers of dynamat or similar would be a good replacement for the foam. The baffles are pretty freaking solid though. For mine at least, the metal on the door would probably move first: short baffle, glued top to bottom and side to side, screwed/braced along the edges and the foam is literally compressed between the baffle and the door. Solid mount, no 2 ways about it.

Let me ask you while you're here Rob...what do you use for "3/4" volume on the stock radio for setting gains on the amp(s)? I tapped up the steering wheel volume since it's the only real measurable volume control. I upped it 17 times and it still sounded clean to me there, so I went from there. Just curious where you work from?
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Old 02-21-2007, 08:21 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcurley55 View Post
you guys - to deaden the baffle up a bit - use some non hardening modeling clay between your baffle and the door. Also, you can use it to help seal the voids where the baffle doesn't touch the door perfectly.

remember, the more mass you can add to a baffle, the better off you are
Honestly, I was thinking about deadoning all around the speaker, but the door is surprisingly solid, even with 3 screws this baffle is freakin solid!! I'm not really down with the modeling clay heard too many things, and it can run/matenance issues.

I plan on Dynamatting around it the baffle though, I could do the whole door but it seems pretty unnessesary.
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Old 02-21-2007, 10:10 AM   #92
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I just pulled my doors apart and after 1.5 years or so with clay in there - no issues. Just passing on a trick of the trade - use at your own risk

As for the stock radio - I would just turn it way up - set your gains, then ensure that you have enough resolution that you can turn it down to a quiet level still. If you don't have a "quiet" enough setting - then you can always turn up a few more notches and reset the gain until you clip.

I don't know where or if the factory head clips - the problem is that it doesn't have a pause button - so you can't turn it all the way up, then back it off a bit like I would with an aftermarket unit.
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Old 02-21-2007, 10:16 AM   #93
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Adas -
Nice work! You didn't mention if you had to cut the plastic out of the door panel, did you? I'm trying to avoid this so I can go back to stock if needed.

Also, any suggestions on method for aligning the ring with the speaker grill opening on the panel?

Both you guys, do u think using Rob's method of perforated metal covered with dynamat to plug up the other holes is necessary? Seems to me from your reaction to the improvements so far, probably not required?
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Old 02-21-2007, 02:13 PM   #94
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I don't know where or if the factory head clips - the problem is that it doesn't have a pause button - so you can't turn it all the way up, then back it off a bit like I would with an aftermarket unit.
Yeah, that infinite max volume makes it a bit of a pain. I reset the gains last night with +16 taps on the steering wheel volume control just to be safe. When I turn it up +19 taps, the Overload (clip) indicator starts to blink on the EQX, so it's probably pretty close to where it should be at +16-17.

I have a scope, but haven't felt like digging that out and getting that far into it just yet...using the DMM method for now and set the underrated amp for it's rated power with the car running, so the amp at least should be way in the safe zone.

Quote:
Nice work! You didn't mention if you had to cut the plastic out of the door panel, did you? I'm trying to avoid this so I can go back to stock if needed.

Also, any suggestions on method for aligning the ring with the speaker grill opening on the panel?

Both you guys, do u think using Rob's method of perforated metal covered with dynamat to plug up the other holes is necessary? Seems to me from your reaction to the improvements so far, probably not required?
I think the only way you can avoid cutting the angled ring inside the grill using this way is to not use a ring on top...or a very thin one, like 1/4"-3/8. Remember, the smaller you go in thickness on the baffle, the further behind the grill the speaker will be and the less mounting depth you have. FWIW, I can still bolt my stock mids in the panel with everything cut like I did it, but there's a gap between the front of the speaker and the panel since I cut that plastic ring down on the grill. If/when it ever has to go back to stock, I will just put a foam ring between the mid and the door panel instead...that's how the stock setup is anyway except it uses that plastic spacer ring in between.

The MDF ring will pretty much only fit in one spot (pretty well center of the grill if not dead center) if you build the baffles this far out and use 6.5" OD rings. If you lay the ring in the panel and put the boards on top, you can eyeball it pretty close on the boards and work from there. The ring will be just about lined up with the bottom edge of the board, so you will pretty much only need to worry about side/side placement which isn't too hard to find.

I can't really comment on the perforated metal+dampener to plug the holes in the doors since I haven't done it. Technically, it should help (as should the clay on the baffle), but I haven't even removed my weather barrier yet to see what's under there. It definitely wouldn't be a "requirement", but if you're looking for the absolute best SQ, it's definitely a good idea to seal/mass it up.
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Old 02-21-2007, 05:23 PM   #95
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you are better off with taking it one step at a time - cut the door then seal the baffle - decide after that if you need sound deadening - I almost wish I hadn't deadened the door to holy hell.
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Old 02-21-2007, 05:49 PM   #96
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Just a quick note on my way out: I dusted off the o-scope and dragged it out there because it was bugging me The stock head unit definitely clips, starting somewhere around 19-20 taps up on the volume (steering wheel) from silent with a 1000Hz sine signal. That is right about the volume where the EQX Overload light comes on fairly steady, so it's pretty close

I want to recheck it later or tomorrow with the "proper" setup (Y-adapter) to get both input RCAs at the same time. I measured the + pins individually on the RCA inputs that I made from the speaker lines and grounded the o-scope to the car. I used a 1000Hz sine wave for signal so it probably won't clip that soon with actual music, but 21-22 taps up on the volume and it looks just like this: _/\_/\_.

Is there a friggin' REPEAT button on the stock HU? 15 seconds of 1000Hz sine goes by pretty quick
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Old 02-21-2007, 09:11 PM   #97
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Remember the OEM HU puts out balanced differential outputs (both + and - are active) so you would want a scope with isolated inputs, or convert it to unbalanced first before connecting. The HU puts out a significant amount of voltage before clipping. Also, was it loaded or unloaded?

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Old 02-21-2007, 09:22 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by rcurley55 View Post
you guys - to deaden the baffle up a bit - use some non hardening modeling clay between your baffle and the door. Also, you can use it to help seal the voids where the baffle doesn't touch the door perfectly.

remember, the more mass you can add to a baffle, the better off you are
Yup. Modeling clay works great. I deadened my doors with dynamat extreme and the baffles with modeling. I used dynamat and a bunch of towels for the rear deck. Best way to improve your midbass (aside from tuning) is to deaden your doors correctly. That is how you get that up front punchy midbass. Another thing is the plastic grill on the door. That kills a lot of the sound. I rta'd my car before i cut the plastic and put cloth grills on it and after. My mids used to roll off and be very peaky. It is a lot better now with the custom cloth grill.
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Old 02-21-2007, 09:28 PM   #99
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Tweeters don't need to be that high in the door to get a good stage. From personal experience I believe it is better to get them as far away/equi-distant (sp?) as possible than higher up. That's why horns work well.

If you get the phasing and distances right, they can be pretty low and still give a good dash-level soundstage.

Mark
If tweeters are placed down low the center of your stage might be eye level, but the sides of your stage taper down and you get a rainbow affect. If you arent competing in IASCA and don't care about passanger staging, I think time alignment produces the best stage and imaging. When I competed before I always got near perfects for staging and imaging from the drivers side. Equidistant is ideal, but time alignment can fix that in a car. I have my tweeters dash mounted right now.
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Old 02-21-2007, 09:51 PM   #100
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Yeah....the stok door panel has to be ground out quite a bit, the plastic ring and little nothces around it too...not reversible fully, but like RSL said it's possible to use the stockers with a foam ring.

RSL, I love you. Not in a gay way...but listen....you were right.

I installed 1, just 1 speaker, finished today( no pics yet ) on the pass side door, cut the doors, sealed it all up with mdf parts and 3 layers of dynamat xtreme, hooked it up to the STOCK HK amp(like what, 18w at 4 ohms?), and with the stock tweeter. The results are friggin INCREDIBLE. To me, just 1 speaker in the whole car playing it sounds like there's a 10" sub thumping in the car from the outside with the doors closed. This is with 18w to the rainbows, which "like" 150w

So anyways, tomarrow the otherside, and then the new tweets...but with the stock crossover on the HK amp(100hz?) It's almost like you don't even need a sub, theres a lot of lower end 70hz+

But the freaking rattles

ANyways, can't wait for 2 installed
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