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Old 07-30-2014, 03:17 AM   #1
dragosid
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Question Any successful DCT/PDK adaptations to the S54?

Anyone happen to know of any successful DCT/PDK adaptations to the S54 that would work (have worked successfully) on the street and also happen to hold 800whp/600wtq ?

Am I crazy to dream of this shifting with the E46 M3 on street (min 2:29):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...XWdkLHSw#t=148

I am actively looking to move away from 6MT into an ideally high performance streetable DCT/PDK/Auto trans.
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best 1/4 mile (ST2) 11.77'@123mph 1.9' R/T on Toyo R888 295/30/19
Porsche Cayenne Turbo S - stock

Last edited by dragosid; 07-30-2014 at 04:07 AM.
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Old 07-30-2014, 04:59 AM   #2
Twin_Turbo_S54
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Dragos,

Its possible as we ve been talking about for a while.
6 speed automatic gearbox worked good on E46 M3. Shifted fast, fast enough.
I removed 6 speed gearbox and started working R35 gearbox.

The cost makes R35 gearbox unusable on M3. Imagine 30.000 USD for upgrading (Shep trans) + transmission core + freight + custom duties . You will end up at North of 40.000 USD.

Add to that electronics. Most difficult part. Integration of onboard sensors into R35 gearbox. You can get Cosworth write "code/program" for E46 M3 / R35 Gearbox, but have to pay 20.000-30.000 GBP, depending on the time. If you are wanting a one off a kind code you pay for engineers.

Add to that mechanical adaptation of R35 gearbox onto E46 M3. New propeller shaft, transmission brace, transmission cooler.

You ll end up North of 50.000 USD (thats a minimum)

I may finish the R35 gearbox adaptation by the end of the year but wont be selling as it is not fully tested. just for hobby. Broken foot slowed progress, but still working on 2 M3s at the same time.

Are you ready to spend over 50k on E46 M3? Except myself, I advise to get E92 M3, F/I and have the DCT work for you. I am already into R35 gearbox adaptation, cannot abort at this level
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Old 07-30-2014, 10:17 AM   #3
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Hey Mert,

knew very well your progress on this subject, what I want though is for the other guys to chime in as well (happy you chose to do too, and make your progress public). I know PEI has some knowledge on the subject and I'm sure the MUST be others as well.

This platform has been improved quite a bit in the last years and has become more and more dependable so I'm sure I can't be the only one interested in making all this power usable even from standstill (and low gears). Plus all the development of the new transmissions on the E92 M3, Porsche, AMG E63 make it tough to compete with a decade old manual gearbox (even with SSK and Triple clutch) therefore my reach-out.

Feel free to share your findings on the Custom auto gearbox or any others you have worked on and currently are but if you don't want to just yet that's fine too. I'm sure there must have been others in the US who managed to do something with it.

As mentioned before I'm willing to shell out up to 20k for a (close to) GTR like solution for the street that could hold our power levels.

Discussion is open....
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HPF Stage 2.5 - 739rwhp & 581ft-lbs SAE
best 1/4 mile (ST2) 11.77'@123mph 1.9' R/T on Toyo R888 295/30/19
Porsche Cayenne Turbo S - stock

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Old 07-30-2014, 10:47 AM   #4
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What's the issue with the 6MT? Does your clutch slip?
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Old 07-30-2014, 02:01 PM   #5
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Hey Mert,

knew very well your progress on this subject, what I want though is for the other guys to chime in as well (happy you chose to do too, and make your progress public). I know PEI has some knowledge on the subject and I'm sure the MUST be others as well.

This platform has been improved quite a bit in the last years and has become more and more dependable so I'm sure I can't be the only one interested in making all this power usable even from standstill (and low gears). Plus all the development of the new transmissions on the E92 M3, Porches, AMG E63 make it tough to compete with a decade old manual gearbox (even with SSK and Triple clutch) therefore my reach-out.

Feel free to share your findings on the Custom auto gearbox or any others you have worked on and currently are but if you don't want to just yet that's fine too. I'm sure there must have been others in the US who managed to do something with it.

As mentioned before I'm willing to shell out up to 20k for a (close to) GTR like solution for the street that could hold our power levels.

Discussion is open....

Dragos,

For 20k USD you can only plan or dream

Justttt check the price of a R35 gearbox, stock one....

I may finish R35 gearbox / S54 engine by the end of 2014.

On the other hand 6 speed auto gear box is working flawless except launch mode. I am trying to finish launch mode and testing different torque converters.
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Old 07-30-2014, 02:32 PM   #6
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What's the issue with the 6MT? Does your clutch slip?
Dagos wants to shift very fast, so no slippage.
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Old 07-30-2014, 03:24 PM   #7
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Why not go with a TH400? With that budget I can imagine someone can fabricate the parts necessary to work with the S54
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Old 07-30-2014, 03:49 PM   #8
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Why not go with a TH400? With that budget I can imagine someone can fabricate the parts necessary to work with the S54
TH400 is doable, but 3 gears will be too tall for S54 turbo engines.

GTR has 6 gears, TH400 3 gears.
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Old 07-31-2014, 12:45 AM   #9
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The real question would be how to control an automated transmission.

The dual clutch transmissions like the DSG, DCT, and PDK are automated manuals with 2 separate clutch systems. To the best of my knowledge, there isn't a single commercially available stand-alone controller for any of these. Motec has done a stand alone prototype controller for the GTR transmission, but has not released it. They found success with integrating the M1 series ECU with the OEM transmission controller, and that was the end of it. Is the code still there? For sure, and I think if an M1 Developer wanted to buy it from Motec, there would be "a" price. The thing is, most people doing GTR Projects just use the existing PNP offerings from Motec or Syvecs. The Lambos from Underground Racing are another example, where the tuner (John Reed) has integrated a stand alone ECU into the CAN bus. To build a stand-alone transmission controller from Motec using M1 series is going to cost about $6k in hardware, then you will be deep into your pockets for an M1 Developer to build the firmware. (Mert isn't far off on his development costs for software!)

I've gone a slightly different route, and as of yet it's unproven, but I'm going to try to make a modified 5 speed automatic work with 500 tq. Powertrain Control Systems makes a controller that works with pretty much any automatic transmission (Slush boxes), and in my case they already had development done on a tune for the 5HP19 transmission. You can download the software for free to check out, it's pretty simple and offers full range of engagement adjust-ability. Regarding the 5HP19: I'm going to try to keep from shocking it on shifts with gear cut strategies, but if something breaks, my strategy is to replace parts with new ones that have been cryogenically treated, then WPC treated. If that doesn't work, then I'll have to keep the power down. I think to put one of these on an S54 would be pretty simple; it would bolt right onto the block. The only real "Custom" part would probably be a flywheel (Flexplate), but there are a few custom options out there for that. All told, I think a used 5HP19 would be $500, IPT mods $4,500, Flex plate $2,000 (maximum), PCS TCU $1,200 w/wiring, and custom driveshaft $1,500. So figure $10k to try it.
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Old 07-31-2014, 04:11 AM   #10
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What's the issue with the 6MT? Does your clutch slip?
It's unusable in 1st and 2nd gear "when in a hurry" at this power & torque level...
If you look at the youtube vid above you'll understand my description of 'usable'

Quote:
TH400...
Not really streetable ... Looking to be/keep the car as close to 'stock looking' as possible.

Quote:
To the best of my knowledge, there isn't a single commercially available stand-alone controller for any of these.
ahem aheem... Mert has something but I'll let him talk about it only if he wants to ...

Quote:
Motec has done a stand alone prototype controller for the GTR transmission, but has not released it.
That's pretty interesting! Any more details on this Andrew?
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Pulled the trigger! Built engine + 6766 Dual BB + Open Dump + 15/23 PSI - Holy F#@$ this build is insane!

HPF Stage 2.5 - 739rwhp & 581ft-lbs SAE
best 1/4 mile (ST2) 11.77'@123mph 1.9' R/T on Toyo R888 295/30/19
Porsche Cayenne Turbo S - stock

Last edited by dragosid; 07-31-2014 at 04:12 AM.
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Old 07-31-2014, 11:12 AM   #11
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That's pretty interesting! Any more details on this Andrew?
You might have me confused with someone else?

This is probably the most informative "debate" I've seen yet on the M1:

http://www.gtrheritage.com/topic/877-motec-vs-syvecs/
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Old 08-02-2014, 07:30 AM   #12
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I wonder if any one will be able to figure out how to fit the new seven-speed twin-clutch automatic in the 2015 M3/M4 to the S54. That would cool!
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Old 08-02-2014, 08:15 AM   #13
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I wonder if any one will be able to figure out how to fit the new seven-speed twin-clutch automatic in the 2015 M3/M4 to the S54. That would cool!

Everything is possible, but difficult
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Old 08-03-2014, 02:39 PM   #14
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I wonder if any one will be able to figure out how to fit the new seven-speed twin-clutch automatic in the 2015 M3/M4 to the S54. That would cool!
You can fit it. Bell housing is more or less the same, and I'm sure flywheels can be made to fit.

Hard part is controlling it.
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Old 08-03-2014, 04:45 PM   #15
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You can fit it. Bell housing is more or less the same, and I'm sure flywheels can be made to fit.

Hard part is controlling it.
I was not going to tell anyone, but this idea is the final phase of what I will be doing to my car. I have a feeling that the basic code for control will be similar between the SSG/SMG and the DCT transmissions.

The idea is that I will use the M1 to control the BMW transmission ECU, and I can even spoof the data to look like the data from the existing gearbox for when I have to run the car on the DME...

Eventually, with enough data logging, maybe the control can be moved to the M1 natively. But that's much less likely. Screw up timing of something, and bye bye expensive transmission.

Step 0 is figuring out everything that's coming out of the SSG transmission (that's in progress), Step 1 would be getting the CAN data from a DCT 335...
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Old 08-03-2014, 05:09 PM   #16
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...I have a feeling that the basic code for control will be similar between the SSG/SMG and the DCT transmissions.

The idea is that I will use the M1 to control the BMW transmission ECU, and I can even spoof the data to look like the data from the existing gearbox for when I have to run the car on the DME...
Very interesting, second time on this thread there's mentioning of using the M1 to control the DCTs.

Good work Matt, I hope you can make it work! If you do, I'm interested however someone would have to also figure out reinforcing them to withhold 600+ ft-lbs tq

Quote:
You might have me confused with someone else?
My mistake... apologies PEI
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Pulled the trigger! Built engine + 6766 Dual BB + Open Dump + 15/23 PSI - Holy F#@$ this build is insane!

HPF Stage 2.5 - 739rwhp & 581ft-lbs SAE
best 1/4 mile (ST2) 11.77'@123mph 1.9' R/T on Toyo R888 295/30/19
Porsche Cayenne Turbo S - stock

Last edited by dragosid; 08-03-2014 at 05:17 PM.
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Old 08-03-2014, 10:13 PM   #17
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My mistake... apologies PEI
I am absolutely horrible with names.

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Old 08-04-2014, 06:08 AM   #18
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I am absolutely horrible with names.

Regards,

Adam
I knew it started with 'A' lol

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Pulled the trigger! Built engine + 6766 Dual BB + Open Dump + 15/23 PSI - Holy F#@$ this build is insane!

HPF Stage 2.5 - 739rwhp & 581ft-lbs SAE
best 1/4 mile (ST2) 11.77'@123mph 1.9' R/T on Toyo R888 295/30/19
Porsche Cayenne Turbo S - stock
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Old 08-04-2014, 07:40 AM   #19
PEI330Ci
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I knew it started with 'A' lol

Obviously!

BTW, we are currently in the same time zone.
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Old 08-06-2014, 08:42 AM   #20
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Dragos you can get a quaife QBE69G with helical cut gears , they have m3 compatible bell housing as well this would be the best way for you imo , I am also thinking about getting one in the future .
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