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Old 05-05-2008, 11:49 PM   #81
fmzip
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njoni007 View Post
I am sure it is not a fuel pressure problem because I have ran a test...you can see my findings up on this thread unless larger injectors need more pressure.

But, it sure seems like the engine is not getting enough fuel when you do a cold start. I am planning on getting an M3 fuel pump sometimes soon and will see if this 15% more flow pressure will correct problem as it is possible the larger injectors are not getting enough pressure until ECU sends more pulse to injector and run richer...so maybe making the software run richer in cold temp will probably fix this... again these are just theoretical suggestions.
I'm curious to see what your results will be using an M3 Pump.....
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Old 05-06-2008, 12:39 AM   #82
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I have two issues :

Rough start up when cold...My fuel pressure drops to 0psi after sitting over night. I have traced this to a bad check valve in the fuel pump itself so it will need to be replaced.

The other problem is if I touch the throttle before the car is up to normal operating temp. the car stumbles and tries to die on me. Not sure what this is related to. I have checked everything and it all checks out OK.
No vacuum leaks,
Fuel pressure OK,
New fuel pressure regulator,
New MAF.....

I think I remember AJ saying that there is no benifit to using the M3 pump unless you are making over 300 rear weel HP or something like that? He didn't say it would hurt anything either so who knows?
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Old 05-06-2008, 01:30 AM   #83
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The TS is very sensitive on cold start towards loss of fuel pressure or a small vacuum leak before the adaptation kicks in and compensates. In TXZHP's case he has the MPG corrected MS45 ZHP software which has been reported to be a little more unstable on cold engine operation than the older non-MPG corrected software. We are still looking into why, and I recommend him to go back to the older software version that other MS45 customers here use with no startup issues or cold running issues.

As far as MS43 330i, we have only seen one car personally that had a rough start for the first 2-3 seconds on the initial start of the day and this was Max Nathans car. This we traced to a leaking back valve in the fuel pump causing fuel pressure to drop to 0 after sitting over night. This causes the car to stumble on initial startup. Turning on the ignition for a few seconds seemed to have little impact as there was still air in the fuel rail after it being completely drained and it needed 2-3 seconds of running the engine to refill completely. After we replaced the fuel pump unit and pressure regulator this resolved the issue.

On MS43 325 we have seen reports that the cold start fuelling in 325 MS43 TS software v.101 is tuned a little bit lean, and the easiest cure is to retune it for slightly more startup fuel (v.102 which is now delivered with all new 325 kits). This results in the car being a little hesitant until the O2 feedback fires up after ~1min and compensates. The reason for this is probably a slight deviation in our MS43 325 R&D car which caused us to tune it a little bit to lean on initial startup. We only had 1 MS43 325 TS R&D car as opposed to several 330's.

Last edited by Asbjorn@ESS; 05-06-2008 at 01:37 AM.
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Old 05-06-2008, 01:47 AM   #84
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So if I have a MS43 325 am I going to just have to learn to live with this or are you working on fix? Mine lasts for more than a minute.

Last edited by elite53; 05-06-2008 at 01:49 AM.
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Old 05-06-2008, 02:01 AM   #85
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So if I have a MS43 325 am I going to just have to learn to live with this or are you working on fix? Mine lasts for more than a minute.
No, MS43 325 Software v.102 runs richer for the first 60-90 seconds than the v.101 that you have. Please send your ECU in at your convenience and we will update to version v.102.

We always try to otimize cold start running for minimum emissions in order to pass TÜV and CARB testing, on some MS43 325 cars we have seen that fuelling for the first 60-90 seconds with software v.101 are a tad to lean and can cause the car to be a little jumpy on light throttle input until it is warmed up. This is a different issue than the 1-3 second initial start roughness that is normally caused by complete loss of fuel pressure over night.
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Old 05-06-2008, 02:17 AM   #86
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I had my computer reflashed back in February of this year. Did the new software come out since then?
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Old 05-06-2008, 02:45 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by elite53 View Post
I had my computer reflashed back in February of this year. Did the new software come out since then?
Yes, we updated the MS43 325 software a few days ago to version .102 with slightly more fuel during warm-up conditions.
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Old 05-06-2008, 02:55 AM   #88
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Do you still have the DME exchange program you spoke about earlier in this thread? I'de like to limit my down time if I can. What do I need to do to get the ball rolling on this?
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Old 05-06-2008, 03:21 AM   #89
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Do you still have the DME exchange program you spoke about earlier in this thread? I'de like to limit my down time if I can. What do I need to do to get the ball rolling on this?
Yes, but the new DME must be EWS realigned to your car before it will start.
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Old 05-06-2008, 03:26 AM   #90
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Ooops! I'll just make arrangements to send you mine. Thanks for your help Asbjorn. You always come thru for us. You guys at ESS have unbeatable customer service.
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Old 05-06-2008, 10:27 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by elite53 View Post
I have two issues :

Rough start up when cold...My fuel pressure drops to 0psi after sitting over night. I have traced this to a bad check valve in the fuel pump itself so it will need to be replaced.

The other problem is if I touch the throttle before the car is up to normal operating temp. the car stumbles and tries to die on me. Not sure what this is related to. I have checked everything and it all checks out OK.
No vacuum leaks,
Fuel pressure OK,
New fuel pressure regulator,
New MAF.....

I think I remember AJ saying that there is no benefit to using the M3 pump unless you are making over 300 rear weel HP or something like that? He didn't say it would hurt anything either so who knows?
You've described my scenario exactly except I do not have to wait until it gets to "operating temp" per se. When it's stumbling on startup, I can't touch the throttle because it will stall........I've replaced everything you mention (prior to the install) with the exception of a MAF.

I'm going to pick up a FP gauge today to see what I find. I will also check for vaccum leaks but I am fairly confident with the install with the exception of the injector seating. IMHO it seems like the spacers for the fuel rail were just a bit too long....... if there is a leak, my guess would be there.

Asbjorn, I sent you an email wit my ship to for the injectors. Your customer service has been impeccable! Thanks!
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Old 05-06-2008, 10:57 AM   #92
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Count me in on that reprogram swap

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asbjorn@ESS View Post
For existing TS customers we even have an exchange DME program used for updating softwares whenever a updated revision is available. We simply send out a preprogrammed DME matched to your car and you return your old one back as a core exchange. This service is free, we only ask you to cover the ECU freight which is inexpensive as there is no need for express shipping anymore as there is no DME programming downtime.

You will however have to pay a deposit for the new DME which will be refunded once the core ECU has arrived back at ESS.
Hey Asbjorn, I never did get that reprogrammed dme you promised.
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Old 05-20-2008, 09:56 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Asbjorn@ESS View Post
Spartan,

I suspect you might have a FPR back leak, have you verified your fuel pressure to make sure it does not drop all the way to 0 after the car has been parked for a while? It sounds to me like you do not have full fuel pressure during the first 2-3 seconds and after then it is normal. It can also be an injector slighly leaking through to the cylinder. Do check the fuel pressure and make sure it does not drop to 0 after a while.

To correct this problem you can try to replace the FPR first, and if it does not help I can send you a new set of injectors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asbjorn@ESS View Post

As far as MS43 330i, we have only seen one car personally that had a rough start for the first 2-3 seconds on the initial start of the day and this was Max Nathans car. This we traced to a leaking back valve in the fuel pump causing fuel pressure to drop to 0 after sitting over night. This causes the car to stumble on initial startup. Turning on the ignition for a few seconds seemed to have little impact as there was still air in the fuel rail after it being completely drained and it needed 2-3 seconds of running the engine to refill completely. After we replaced the fuel pump unit and pressure regulator this resolved the issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asbjorn@ESS View Post
It is very rare injectors have issues, but email me what address you want me to send out a new set for and I will do so.
Asbjorn, did you send out the injectors yet?

Just trying to get an update here, Elite53's situation sounds identical to mine. I believe we have both changed FPR/FuelFilter/ Fuel Pumps, I changed mine during the TS2 install and he did his after.

As I stated earlier, Elio owned this setup before I did and had the exact same cold start issues. My guess is that it has to be leaking by the seat of the injector as the engine cools and contracts or a bad injector.

I've noticed a pattern here in New England with our wacky weather patterns of one day being 80F, the next day being 50F . Every day I have the initial cold start issue regardless of temperature, the car is garaged at 63 degrees. I then have a very short ride to work, 6 miles at the most. On warm days when I leave the office after 8 hours, the car starts right up. On the colder days, I do get another cold start issue when I leave the office in the evening.......

I will be in Phoenix on Thursday, is there a different version of software to try also?
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Last edited by fmzip; 05-20-2008 at 09:59 AM.
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:32 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fmzip View Post
Asbjorn, did you send out the injectors yet?

Just trying to get an update here, Elite53's situation sounds identical to mine. I believe we have both changed FPR/FuelFilter/ Fuel Pumps, I changed mine during the TS2 install and he did his after.

As I stated earlier, Elio owned this setup before I did and had the exact same cold start issues. My guess is that it has to be leaking by the seat of the injector as the engine cools and contracts or a bad injector.

I've noticed a pattern here in New England with our wacky weather patterns of one day being 80F, the next day being 50F . Every day I have the initial cold start issue regardless of temperature, the car is garaged at 63 degrees. I then have a very short ride to work, 6 miles at the most. On warm days when I leave the office after 8 hours, the car starts right up. On the colder days, I do get another cold start issue when I leave the office in the evening.......

I will be in Phoenix on Thursday, is there a different version of software to try also?
If you have bad injectors, we all have bad injectors and I doubt we all have leaky injectors. If there were some issue inherent to the specific injector we have, I would expect the new ones from ESS should also behave the same. Of course, if there is nothing wrong with the injectors, they will also behave the same.

I too have noticed some level of ambient temperature dependency. I'm currently waiting on a software update from ESS. Unfortunately, with temps hitting 99 here yesterday, it may be November before I know if it really solves the problem.
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:56 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by TxZHP04 View Post
If you have bad injectors, we all have bad injectors and I doubt we all have leaky injectors.
Is ESS still using the same injectors since the inception of this product?
My injectors from February of 2007 are pictured here:

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Old 05-20-2008, 11:07 AM   #96
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Fran, my injectors look exactly like yours. My kit shipped in February 2008. Paraklas has a 320 though, not a 330, so he probably just has different size injectors.

Last edited by TxZHP04; 05-20-2008 at 11:11 AM.
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Old 05-20-2008, 11:14 AM   #97
fmzip
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Fran, my injectors look exactly like yours. My kit shipped in February 2008. Paraklas has a 320 though, not a 330, so he probably just has different size injectors.
Yes...I saw that he had a 320 which is why I edited my post.
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Old 05-20-2008, 11:26 AM   #98
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Yes...I saw that he had a 320 which is why I edited my post.
Ah yes, dueling edits.
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Old 05-20-2008, 11:49 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by fmzip View Post
Asbjorn, did you send out the injectors yet?

Just trying to get an update here, Elite53's situation sounds identical to mine. I believe we have both changed FPR/FuelFilter/ Fuel Pumps, I changed mine during the TS2 install and he did his after.

As I stated earlier, Elio owned this setup before I did and had the exact same cold start issues. My guess is that it has to be leaking by the seat of the injector as the engine cools and contracts or a bad injector.

I've noticed a pattern here in New England with our wacky weather patterns of one day being 80F, the next day being 50F . Every day I have the initial cold start issue regardless of temperature, the car is garaged at 63 degrees. I then have a very short ride to work, 6 miles at the most. On warm days when I leave the office after 8 hours, the car starts right up. On the colder days, I do get another cold start issue when I leave the office in the evening.......

I will be in Phoenix on Thursday, is there a different version of software to try also?

You and Elite have 2 different setups with different injectors and completely different software. On the 325 MS43 TS we have changed the startup fuelling a little bit due to inhouse testing showing it to be a little bit on the lean side during the first ~60 seconds of operation under some conditions, they do however startup just fine, but they can behave a little "nervous" in some situations for ~60 seconds. On MS43 330's we have never seen any kind of startup stumbles on any car we have installed ourselves not even when we get them in for regular maintenance with 15+ months of use. We have seen it once on a car we got in from the UK for a TS3 conversion and we traced down the issue to a leaking backvalve in the fuel system causing the fuel pressure to drop completely overnight. If your fuel pressure is good after sitting overnight, then the problem is almost certainly a small leak somewhere in the installation causing false air to be drawn in. This does not really matter as long as it is not a large leak since adaptation compensates as soon as it fires up. It is very important for a proper seal when installing the TS to clean the cylinder head properly and use gasket sealant on both sides of the TS->head gasket.
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Old 05-20-2008, 11:49 AM   #100
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Yes...I saw that he had a 320 which is why I edited my post.
320 2.2 TS uses the same injectors as our 325 TS.
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