E46 BMW Social Directory E46 FAQ 3-Series Discussion Forums BMW Photo Gallery BMW 3-Series Technical Information E46 Fanatics - The Ultimate BMW Resource BMW Vendors General E46 Forum The Tire Rack's Tire Wheel Forum Forced Induction Forum The Off-Topic The E46 BMW Showroom For Sale, For Trade or Wanting to Buy

Welcome to the E46Fanatics forums. E46Fanatics is the premiere website for BMW 3 series owners around the world with interactive forums, a geographical enthusiast directory, photo galleries, and technical information for BMW enthusiasts.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Go Back   E46Fanatics > E46 BMW > General E46 Forum

General E46 Forum
This is the place to get answers, opinions and everything you need related to your E46 (sedan, coupe, convertible and wagon) BMW!

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 11-12-2007, 09:07 PM   #1
jpr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,005
My Ride: '99 323i
What BMW has to say about engine coolant

Tech info on engine coolants straight from the TIS
Attached Files
File Type: pdf SBS 1 - Requirements.pdf (17.1 KB, 3334 views)
File Type: pdf SBS 2 - Change Interval.pdf (13.0 KB, 2427 views)
File Type: pdf SBS 3 - Approved List.pdf (13.7 KB, 5636 views)
File Type: pdf SBS 4 - Additives.pdf (9.7 KB, 1921 views)
jpr is offline  
Ads by Google

Guests, get your FREE E46Fanatics.com membership to remove this ad.
Old 11-12-2007, 09:10 PM   #2
Scud Runner
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Montana
Posts: 87
My Ride: E46 330ci
Thanks for the info.
__________________
Scud Runner is offline  
Old 11-12-2007, 09:22 PM   #3
Deep Blue
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bay Area California
Posts: 451
My Ride: M52TUB28
so i guess prestone is not approved then. this should settle the debate with the prestone vs bmw coolant
Deep Blue is offline  
Old 11-13-2007, 11:21 AM   #4
markusmark
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,679
My Ride: 2001330Ci
Looks like none of the approved anti-freezes are made in the USA.
markusmark is offline  
Old 11-13-2007, 11:29 AM   #5
NorCal Einstein
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 23,369
My Ride: E92 335i
Send a message via AIM to NorCal Einstein Send a message via Yahoo to NorCal Einstein
I'd like to buy BMW coolant by the tanker....please.
__________________

Current:
2009 E92 335i Alpine White/Coral Red

Past:
2007 E92 335i Sparkling Graphite/Black
2000 E46 323i Steel Blue/Grey

NorCal Einstein is offline  
Old 11-13-2007, 11:49 AM   #6
jpr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,005
My Ride: '99 323i
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deep Blue View Post
so i guess prestone is not approved then. this should settle the debate with the prestone vs bmw coolant
Not necessarily...

This is only a list of specific coolants that BMW selected for testing and subsequently approved. We do not by what criteria BMW selected these particular coolants (and not other coolants) to test, nor do we know which, if any, additional coolants that tested but failed to gain approval.

Nonetheless, when selecting coolant the easiest and safest way to do it is to stick to the list of known good products. The harder way to do it would be to do the necessary research to ensure the coolant you select is chemically equivalent or superior to the listed products. The least wise way to do it is to just dump in just anything based on the theory that all coolants are the same.
jpr is offline  
Old 11-07-2008, 08:45 AM   #7
paraklas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Cyprus
Posts: 5,925
My Ride: ESS TS2 320ci
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwbun View Post
The BMW requirements for being nitrate and amino free have nothing to do with the interior of your engine and everything to do with protection of the environment upon disposal.
Actually IIRC it has everything to do with the interior of the engine. Aluminum engine components/block react (electrolysis?) with certain chemicals such as nitrides contained in certain coolants.
__________________
http://www.argyrides.eu/makeyourownsig.jpg
paraklas is offline  
Old 11-07-2008, 08:48 AM   #8
jpr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,005
My Ride: '99 323i
Yet another tech free post from bmwbun. Actual chemistry tech is fully absent, innuendo and imagination takes its place, resulting in strange claims not just about the technical subject but also what has actually been said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwbun View Post
Careful not to walk down the same goofy trail for engine antifreeze as many have with LL-01 oils.

All we're tying to achieve with engine antifreeze is protection of metal and preservation of non-metal while ensuring nothing freezes.

The BMW requirements for being nitrate and amino free have nothing to do with the interior of your engine and everything to do with protection of the environment upon disposal.

Really?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpr View Post
Just to be clear, BMW does not actually recommend you only use BMW coolant. Instead, they recommend you use any one of a variety of coolants which meet the BMW N 600 69.0 standard and are available from a variety of manufacturers.

Likewise, they do not recommend you use only use BMW or Castrol oil. They recommend you use an oil tested and approved to the appropiate BMW Longlife standard for your engine. I know of at least 25 oils that meet the LL-01 standard, another dozen LL-04 oils, and 25+ LL-98 oils. So BMW isn't exactly trying to make people only buy one particular brand.

As for potential issues from using a non-spec coolant, there are in fact some. Unfortunately Prestone does not see fit to share much technical info on their product, but let's take a look 3 BASF products on which data is available.

As noted before, the BMW approved G48 has a organic acid and silicate corrosion inhibitior package and is nitrite, amine, and phosphate free. In the glassware corrossion test, it shows an average weight loss of -1.1 mg on an aluminum coupon. In the simulated service test, it shows a typical weight loss of -1.2 mg on an aluminum coupon.

G05 is similar but contains nitrites in the corrosion package and is not BMW approved. In the glassware corrossion test, it shows an average weight loss of -2.4 mg on an aluminum coupon. In the simulated service test, it shows a typical weight loss of -1.8 mg on an aluminum coupon.

G30 is nitrite, amine, phosphate, silicate, and borate free and is not BMW appproved. In the glassware corrossion test, it shows an average weight loss of -4.0 mg on an aluminum coupon. In the simulated service test, it shows a typical weight loss of -3.3 mg on an aluminum coupon.

As you can see, there is an actual quanitfiable benefit to using a BMW approved coolant.
*****
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwbun View Post
I know what you're thinking. Hey, is this a technical spec or a marketing program?

And just as you did with LL-01, by all means trick yourself into believing that the list of approved antifreeze brands in BMW TIS are the only ones compatible with your engine.

Ignore the myopic reasons why the BMW people only listed European brands. Convince yourself they must be better.

BMW TIS spends more time specifying the water you can use than the chemical makeup of the antifreeze needed.

Its all just a marketing program.

They're only a half step away from selling us Euro formula distilled water.

.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpr View Post
This is only a list of specific coolants that BMW selected for testing and subsequently approved. We do not by what criteria BMW selected these particular coolants (and not other coolants) to test, nor do we know which, if any, additional coolants that tested but failed to gain approval.

Nonetheless, when selecting coolant the easiest and safest way to do it is to stick to the list of known good products. The harder way to do it would be to do the necessary research to ensure the coolant you select is chemically equivalent or superior to the listed products. The least wise way to do it is to just dump in just anything based on the theory that all coolants are the same.
EDIT: How amusing, in the time I wrote the reply, bmwbun delted his post from this thread and reposted it in this thread - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showpos...7&postcount=10

Last edited by jpr; 11-07-2008 at 08:50 AM.
jpr is offline  
Old 11-07-2008, 08:54 AM   #9
bmwbun
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: CO
Posts: 1,956
My Ride: Pre-facelift Coupe
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpr View Post
Yet another tech free post from bmwbun. Actual chemistry tech is fully absent,
You'll notice that first, jpr posted his beloved little TIS articles that he thinks are the bible.

All they have is some info on the chemistry of the water needed to mix with.

Thanks BMW, I'm assuming if I import a bottle of distilled water from a German supermarket I'll be fine?


They (BMW) specified nitrate and amino free for environmental disposal reasons.

So we could all be green.

Its like Lifetime tranny fluid. A marketing program.

Skeptical?

Here's a quote from SBS 2:

Ongoing technical development means that the coolant does not need to be changed on the vehicles listed below.
- E65 from 09/2003
- E60, all models since market introduction
- E85 since market introduction
- Vehicles with Service interval indicator (SIA) with petrol engines from 03/2003
- Vehicles with Service interval indicator (SIA) with diesel engines from 09/2003
- M vehicles from 09/2003




Let's see, Longlife and Lifetime are already taken, what should BMW call this one?

.

Last edited by bmwbun; 11-07-2008 at 09:22 AM.
bmwbun is offline  
Old 11-07-2008, 10:21 AM   #10
jpr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,005
My Ride: '99 323i
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwbun View Post
They (BMW) specified nitrate and amino free for environmental disposal reasons.
Prove it.

I'll bet you can't and this is just another one of the continuous stream of posts you make containing nothing but pure BS.
jpr is offline  
Old 11-07-2008, 10:36 AM   #11
bmwbun
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: CO
Posts: 1,956
My Ride: Pre-facelift Coupe
Save me some time and just read SBS-3 yourself.

(What brand of moron doesn't read what he himself posts?)

Maybe blow the dust off your 12th grade chemistry textbook while you're at it.

Let's face it, its not rocket science....


Pour the Prestone. You'll be fine.

.

Last edited by bmwbun; 11-07-2008 at 10:58 AM.
bmwbun is offline  
Old 11-07-2008, 10:54 AM   #12
hummer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Haverhill, MA
Posts: 3,323
My Ride: 2001 330CI
I have already proven it for myself! 250k on our 92 Audi. 200K of it on Prestone! Most of this prior to the new long life stuff. No corrosion, zero, zip, nada. No cooling system components changed til 14 years and 160K when the pump started leaking. The only failures were not metalic but plastic related. Newer plastics are different and not harmed by the antifreeze. Yes there is Prestone in my BMW.
hummer is offline  
Old 11-07-2008, 11:21 AM   #13
jeffro3000
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 2,812
My Ride: 2000 328i
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwbun View Post
Let's face it, its not rocket science....


jess plain stew pid.
jeffro3000 is offline  
Old 11-07-2008, 11:21 AM   #14
TxZHP04
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: DFW
Posts: 5,728
My Ride: ESS TS2+ ZHP
You can argue until you're blue in the face about what's acceptable and what's not. The fact of the matter is, BMW provides a list of fluids that are guaranteed not to cause problems. This absolutely does not mean that they are the only fluids that can be used. BMW doesn't test every product on the market. Problem is, if you use something that's not on the list then your car becomes the long term test lab.

It's a lot safer to give the general public a list of approved products than to make them have to figure out what's compatible with their car. Frankly, some people I know aren't qualifed to tie their shoes much less understand the chemistry of antifreeze. Considering that some of the forum members here aren't even old enough to be in 12th grade, you have to be mindful of the advice that you dish out.
__________________
04 IR 330i ZHP | ESS TS2+ SC | MagnaFlow "headers" | KMS 3.64 LSD | AST 4100 550/650| APEX ARC-8 18x9 | H&R front sway bar | Vorshlag camber plates, RTAB limiters | TMS subframe & swaybar reinforcements | UUC SSK & DSSR | UUC TM & TME | BW motor mounts | Dinan strut & shock tower bars | vaio 4-bolt oil pump
TxZHP04 is offline  
Old 11-07-2008, 11:33 AM   #15
bmwbun
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: CO
Posts: 1,956
My Ride: Pre-facelift Coupe
Quote:
Originally Posted by TxZHP04 View Post
It's a lot safer to give the general public a list of approved products than to make them have to figure out what's compatible with their car. Frankly, some people I know aren't qualifed to tie their shoes much less understand the chemistry of antifreeze. Considering that some of the forum members here aren't even old enough to be in 12th grade, you have to be mindful of the advice that you dish out.
Certainly a valid perspective.

One of the unintended consequences of having BMW publish a partial list of coolant brands sold only in Europe is that the occasional blithering idiot BMW owner in North America will conclude that somehow they're superior or safer than the brands available here.

That same idiot may not even pause to think of the possibility that the "approved" BMW OE coolant may have played a role in the seemingly premature failure of water pumps and expansion tanks that some of us experience.

Let's face one thing. BMW certainly can't claim to guarantee we're free of cooling related issues using the OE maintenance intervals, fluids and parts.

.

Last edited by bmwbun; 11-07-2008 at 11:38 AM.
bmwbun is offline  
Old 11-07-2008, 11:37 AM   #16
Solidjake
Zero. Oil. Leaks.
 
Solidjake's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NYC
Posts: 22,376
My Ride: 2002 330i
thanks for the info
__________________
WTB FACELIFT SEDAN TITANIUM SILVER DRIVERS FENDER

Youtube - Electric Fan Swap - Projector Retrofit - Bulb Guide - NY to LA cross country
Solidjake is offline  
Old 11-07-2008, 11:49 AM   #17
TxZHP04
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: DFW
Posts: 5,728
My Ride: ESS TS2+ ZHP
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwbun View Post
That same idiot may not even pause to think of the possibility that the "approved" BMW OE coolant may have played a role in the seemingly premature failure of water pumps and expansion tanks that some of us experience.

Let's face one thing. BMW certainly can't claim to guarantee we're free of cooling related issues using the OE maintenance intervals, fluids and parts.
And of course, there's always the blithering idiot who would rather guess about what works, what doesn't, and speculate about what may or may not cause certain parts to fail prematurely. BMW isn't perfect, no manufacturer is, but they are certainly in a better position to perform the engineering analysis necessary to speak on these topics with authority than any member here.
__________________
04 IR 330i ZHP | ESS TS2+ SC | MagnaFlow "headers" | KMS 3.64 LSD | AST 4100 550/650| APEX ARC-8 18x9 | H&R front sway bar | Vorshlag camber plates, RTAB limiters | TMS subframe & swaybar reinforcements | UUC SSK & DSSR | UUC TM & TME | BW motor mounts | Dinan strut & shock tower bars | vaio 4-bolt oil pump
TxZHP04 is offline  
Old 11-07-2008, 11:57 AM   #18
SeanC
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: TX
Posts: 4,041
My Ride: 330i
Quote:
Originally Posted by TxZHP04 View Post
And of course, there's always the blithering idiot who would rather guess about what works, what doesn't, and speculate about what may or may not cause certain parts to fail prematurely. BMW isn't perfect, no manufacturer is, but they are certainly in a better position to perform the engineering analysis necessary to speak on these topics with authority than any member here.
haha
__________________

Sapphire Black MetallicNatural BrownSilver Cube e46 330i ZHP/6MT - Sold
HellrotDove Grey e36 ///M3 - RIP
Alpine WhiteTanSand High Gloss e46 330i SlickTop/5MT
SeanC is offline  
Old 11-07-2008, 11:59 AM   #19
bmwbun
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: CO
Posts: 1,956
My Ride: Pre-facelift Coupe
If BMW would speak and act by providing a list of approved aftermarket coolant products that are available in North America (where their dominant market is), as BMW NA owners we would be better served.

Its a pity they don't.
bmwbun is offline  
Old 11-07-2008, 12:00 PM   #20
GRIDLOCK
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: OC
Posts: 2,281
My Ride: E36 / E46
Quote:
Originally Posted by TxZHP04 View Post
And of course, there's always the blithering idiot who would rather guess about what works, what doesn't, and speculate about what may or may not cause certain parts to fail prematurely. BMW isn't perfect, no manufacturer is, but they are certainly in a better position to perform the engineering analysis necessary to speak on these topics with authority than any member here.
__________________

Have an EVAP code? Replacing gas cap did not fix? Give me a holler, I can do a smoke test for ya.
GRIDLOCK is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Censor is ON





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
(c) 1999 - 2011 performanceIX Inc - privacy policy - terms of use