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Old 08-18-2014, 01:04 PM   #1
Ft1219
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P1192 p1193 codes

I have the 2 codes on my 330ci shown above my long term fuel trims are - bank 1 9.5 bank 2 3.8. Car drives fine. Codes are pre cat fuel trim and post cat fuel trim bank 2. I do not have cats as I'm running headers. I have AA tune for cel and has worked flawlessly for about a year now. So I know it's not that. What do you guys think? O2 sensor? Vacuum leak, MAF? I did research on the forums but the threads where all over the place. Thanks


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Old 08-18-2014, 01:32 PM   #2
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Bank one fuel trim is double what the max should be. If it's over +5 it's running too lean. Yours is running 9.5% lean. The other is fine.

The o2 sensors should reasonably bounce between .1 to .8 on the pre cat. The post cat should stay the same and not bounce. If it's bouncing between .3 to.6 it's bad.

It has to be a vac leak or a sensor telling computer wrong information. If it was the maf I would think both banks would be lean as the maf is a master control for both banks and is not isolated like the o2 sensors....not sure though as there is no way to measure the maf without some dedication.....like logging the k/sec at idle.....mid....and cruise speeds and graphing the data. Then comparing it to another car. I did this....it's was a terrible jumbled process.

Now you see the long term trims. You look at the short term trims that drive the long term. Long term is an average of short term. If your short term are creeping into the 9 range at idle you probably have a vac leak. If it's higher it could be an intake leak or bad sensor.

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Old 08-18-2014, 01:37 PM   #3
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I would not expect a MAF at this point, or any other issue that should present itself globally. The MAF and most of the vac leaks should present engine-wide, not just on one bank. A leak that only affects one bank should be very close to that particular bank -- a manifold leak at the head, that sort of thing, not a torn boot before the throttle body.

Your tune could be lost too. Bad data or something like that.

Before you start chasing global problems, start smaller with the unique things of the bank that's reporting the errors.
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Old 08-18-2014, 02:02 PM   #4
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I would not expect a MAF at this point, or any other issue that should present itself globally. The MAF and most of the vac leaks should present engine-wide, not just on one bank. A leak that only affects one bank should be very close to that particular bank -- a manifold leak at the head, that sort of thing, not a torn boot before the throttle body.

Your tune could be lost too. Bad data or something like that.

Before you start chasing global problems, start smaller with the unique things of the bank that's reporting the errors.

That's what I'm thinking, but you never know. Could an exhaust leak at the header flange cause my codes?


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Old 08-18-2014, 02:03 PM   #5
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Bank one fuel trim is double what the max should be. If it's over +5 it's running too lean. Yours is running 9.5% lean. The other is fine.

The o2 sensors should reasonably bounce between .1 to .8 on the pre cat. The post cat should stay the same and not bounce. If it's bouncing between .3 to.6 it's bad.

It has to be a vac leak or a sensor telling computer wrong information. If it was the maf I would think both banks would be lean as the maf is a master control for both banks and is not isolated like the o2 sensors....not sure though as there is no way to measure the maf without some dedication.....like logging the k/sec at idle.....mid....and cruise speeds and graphing the data. Then comparing it to another car. I did this....it's was a terrible jumbled process.

Now you see the long term trims. You look at the short term trims that drive the long term. Long term is an average of short term. If your short term are creeping into the 9 range at idle you probably have a vac leak. If it's higher it could be an intake leak or bad sensor.

I'm receiving codes for bank 2, bank 1 is fine. But bank 1 is twice the normal fuel trim. Can you explain?


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Old 08-18-2014, 02:16 PM   #6
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That's what I'm thinking, but you never know. Could an exhaust leak at the header flange cause my codes?


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An exhaust leak usually feeds a post-CAT error. Air is escaping the engine through the exhaust, a lean condition is extra air entering the intake somewhere after the MAF.

Since you have installed headers and I assume a post-CAT O2 simulator, and done a software update to change the way the car runs -- or how sensors are read -- then I think you cannot ignore the software change as part or all of the problem.

You are the young Dr. Frankenstein taking your creation to the Urgent Care clinic down the street. The people here know all there is to know about taking out a splinter, but rerouting the nervous system is a bit over our heads I'm afraid. You need specialty care for your monster, not a family practitioner.
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Old 08-18-2014, 02:26 PM   #7
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I just do not get it with vacuum leaks. There can be multiple leaks on an engine and depending on where the leak is and where the air enters you can have leaks that Lean out both Banks equally or you can have for example 2 leaks, one more globally that can lean both banks mildly to something like 4% then you can have have another leak that can Lean only one Bank and the additional leak could be as much as 8% on the other Bank. So it is not unusual to actually see a difference in 2 Banks.

A degraded MAF could cause both Banks to read 4% Lean and then you could have a leak in the rear of the intake that could cause Bank #2 to actually read 8% total for the 4% due to the degraded MAF and 4% due to a single vacuum leak near the rear of the engine.

You could also have a situation where the air leak is global, but an O2 sensor is lazy and one reads much Leaner than the other.

So there are MANY ways you can have different conditions for each Bank that could be due to more than a single problem.

So there should be NO preconceived notions, if you start with the ASSUMPTION that everything could be wrong with the car, then systematically work through each specific system and area of the 10+ year old car one area, system, sensor at a time you will likely find more than a single problem but at the end of the effort you have corrected everything that is out of line and the engine will run much better.

This situaiton is a bit more complicated as the car has been modified and is running an aftermarket DME tune. So it still is running Post Cat O2 sensors??? Does the AA Tune ignore the Post Cat O2 sensors??

You have a few choices, you can blindly replace O2 sensors, but I doubt they are the primary cause of your codes. If the O2 sensors are questionable, they generally do not accurately report Lean conditions, they under report them from my experience.

Or if you have the proper OBDII tools you can actually fingerprint the O2 sensors to determine their current health.

There is NO WAY to just look at O2 sensor activity on an OBDII scan tool and make any sort of determination as to the sensors health based on just watching the O2 Voltages moving around. This is really just bad troubleshooting and a lack of science that people continue to propagate day in and day out.

Get Freeze Frame data and post this up for review. Get warm idle and steady highway cruise 50-65 MPH range Fuel Trims and post these up for review and comment.
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Old 08-18-2014, 02:41 PM   #8
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I just do not get it with vacuum leaks. There can be multiple leaks on an engine and depending on where the leak is and where the air enters you can have leaks that Lean out both Banks equally or you can have for example 2 leaks, one more globally that can lean both banks mildly to something like 4% then you can have have another leak that can Lean only one Bank and the additional leak could be as much as 8% on the other Bank. So it is not unusual to actually see a difference in 2 Banks.

A degraded MAF could cause both Banks to read 4% Lean and then you could have a leak in the rear of the intake that could cause Bank #2 to actually read 8% total for the 4% due to the degraded MAF and 4% due to a single vacuum leak near the rear of the engine.

You could also have a situation where the air leak is global, but an O2 sensor is lazy and one reads much Leaner than the other.

So there are MANY ways you can have different conditions for each Bank that could be due to more than a single problem.

So there should be NO preconceived notions, if you start with the ASSUMPTION that everything could be wrong with the car, then systematically work through each specific system and area of the 10+ year old car one area, system, sensor at a time you will likely find more than a single problem but at the end of the effort you have corrected everything that is out of line and the engine will run much better.

This situaiton is a bit more complicated as the car has been modified and is running an aftermarket DME tune. So it still is running Post Cat O2 sensors??? Does the AA Tune ignore the Post Cat O2 sensors??

You have a few choices, you can blindly replace O2 sensors, but I doubt they are the primary cause of your codes. If the O2 sensors are questionable, they generally do not accurately report Lean conditions, they under report them from my experience.

Or if you have the proper OBDII tools you can actually fingerprint the O2 sensors to determine their current health.

There is NO WAY to just look at O2 sensor activity on an OBDII scan tool and make any sort of determination as to the sensors health based on just watching the O2 Voltages moving around. This is really just bad troubleshooting and a lack of science that people continue to propagate day in and day out.

Get Freeze Frame data and post this up for review. Get warm idle and steady highway cruise 50-65 MPH range Fuel Trims and post these up for review and comment.

I understand where you're coming from and I'm open to all and every possible option. The AA tune looks for rear o2 sensors so I have to keep them in. But the are programmed to read differently so that it thinks I have a converter there. Therefore passing inspection. But my main concern is why only on one side? Why only bank 2? Bank 1 fuel trims are normal as I checked with AA about it. Bank 2 is far to low. Way to lean. They say it could be sensor 1 as it may be misreading. It's not a fuel issue as I've done a fuel pressure test.


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Old 08-18-2014, 02:42 PM   #9
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An exhaust leak usually feeds a post-CAT error. Air is escaping the engine through the exhaust, a lean condition is extra air entering the intake somewhere after the MAF.

Since you have installed headers and I assume a post-CAT O2 simulator, and done a software update to change the way the car runs -- or how sensors are read -- then I think you cannot ignore the software change as part or all of the problem.

You are the young Dr. Frankenstein taking your creation to the Urgent Care clinic down the street. The people here know all there is to know about taking out a splinter, but rerouting the nervous system is a bit over our heads I'm afraid. You need specialty care for your monster, not a family practitioner.

I have no o2 simulators as I don't need them because of my AA tune.


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Old 08-18-2014, 04:07 PM   #10
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If you still have a sensor, it can be lying or just confused. You cannot ignore bad sensor input when only one bank is showing codes.

A sensor will give a reading, and the firmware (coding) will expect the reading to be in a range. If the reading is outside of the range then an error is displayed. You have a code (tune) that says the reading will be 1 instead of 5, whatever, but the sensor has degraded and the reading it gives is not what is expected. This means that there is a failed sensor. Given that the sensor lives in a very hostile environment, then it surely could have failed. So, either the sensor has failed or the coding (tune) is expecting a different value than the sensor is giving. I don't know how you would know if the tune was at fault here or a sensor. The sensor should put out a voltage in a range of about 0.1 - 0.5, or something like that. I don't know what the value would be without the CAT, but having a voltage that's the same as the pre-CAT sensor would be expected by my logic. Exhaust enters the CAT and the pre-CAT sensor shows a value. When the exhaust leaves the CAT, the post-CAT sensor should give a different value to indicate that the exhaust contents has changed. Your tune has to allow that the exhaust has not changed since there is no CAT in place to change it.

If you have a post CAT error, then you either have a sensor problem or the tune has somehow changed. Or there is a problem that is unique to the bank that is reporting trouble.

If you had trouble with both banks, then the problem would be something common to both sensors, or all 4 of them.

I'm with Jfoj on this, I think you need more diagnostic capability than we can see. More than I can see, anyway.
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Old 08-18-2014, 04:22 PM   #11
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If you still have a sensor, it can be lying or just confused. You cannot ignore bad sensor input when only one bank is showing codes.

A sensor will give a reading, and the firmware (coding) will expect the reading to be in a range. If the reading is outside of the range then an error is displayed. You have a code (tune) that says the reading will be 1 instead of 5, whatever, but the sensor has degraded and the reading it gives is not what is expected. This means that there is a failed sensor. Given that the sensor lives in a very hostile environment, then it surely could have failed. So, either the sensor has failed or the coding (tune) is expecting a different value than the sensor is giving. I don't know how you would know if the tune was at fault here or a sensor. The sensor should put out a voltage in a range of about 0.1 - 0.5, or something like that. I don't know what the value would be without the CAT, but having a voltage that's the same as the pre-CAT sensor would be expected by my logic. Exhaust enters the CAT and the pre-CAT sensor shows a value. When the exhaust leaves the CAT, the post-CAT sensor should give a different value to indicate that the exhaust contents has changed. Your tune has to allow that the exhaust has not changed since there is no CAT in place to change it.

If you have a post CAT error, then you either have a sensor problem or the tune has somehow changed. Or there is a problem that is unique to the bank that is reporting trouble.

If you had trouble with both banks, then the problem would be something common to both sensors, or all 4 of them.

I'm with Jfoj on this, I think you need more diagnostic capability than we can see. More than I can see, anyway.

I have upstream o2 sensors off a parts car that has low miles on it. I'll swap the bank one sensor 1 and go from there. If the code persists then I'll get the proper data from my buddy who has the proper tools to do it.


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Old 08-18-2014, 04:43 PM   #12
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Quit screwing around, spend $35 or less for an OBDII smart phone App and interface.

You can also smoke test the engine and check for vacuum leaks if you cannot seem to find any, search YouTube Scotty Smoke Test for ideas.

Its really not that hard.

Read the first 2 links below in my signature as well as this thread - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=967204

Doubt your buddy has the "proper tools" as over the top tools do not do what these smart phone Apps can do.
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Old 08-18-2014, 05:06 PM   #13
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P1192 p1193 codes

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Originally Posted by jfoj View Post
Quit screwing around, spend $35 or less for an OBDII smart phone App and interface.

You can also smoke test the engine and check for vacuum leaks if you cannot seem to find any, search YouTube Scotty Smoke Test for ideas.

Its really not that hard.

Read the first 2 links below in my signature as well as this thread - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=967204

Doubt your buddy has the "proper tools" as over the top tools do not do what these smart phone Apps can do.

I have a $250 scan tool, actron cp9580. So I'm not "screwing" around. I can get live and freeze data. My buddy has a $4000 diagnostic computer to where he can read live data much more accurately. So please, calm your self down bud. No need to be an ass. He owns an iNdy shop in my area. I just don't like bothering him when I don't have to.


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Old 08-18-2014, 05:09 PM   #14
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My choice from here would be the GT1 package, if that's the one that runs 4 Large. Your car should be able to tell you what the values are from all four of the O2 Sensors.
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Old 08-18-2014, 05:10 PM   #15
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This is what I have.


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Old 08-18-2014, 05:14 PM   #16
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Your Actron should give you what you need, but the buddy with the GT1 (the program that costs $4,000) should be able to pin point this one pretty quickly. Your Actron is better than the one I would have bought if I didn't buy the Innova 3100e instead.
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Old 08-18-2014, 05:30 PM   #17
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Your Actron should give you what you need, but the buddy with the GT1 (the program that costs $4,000) should be able to pin point this one pretty quickly. Your Actron is better than the one I would have bought if I didn't buy the Innova 3100e instead.

Yea, my actron is what have me my fuel trim levels mentioned before. I don't know exactly what my buddy has but he says he can pinpoint the exact issue.


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Old 08-18-2014, 06:46 PM   #18
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Have you swapped the two upstream O2 sensors yet to rule that out?
Edit: Your buddy with the shop, I know exactly what you mean about not bother a friend to run his stuff. But you need that diagnostic computer hooked up, that way he will be able to tell you what is going on.



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I have a $250 scan tool, actron cp9580. So I'm not "screwing" around. I can get live and freeze data. My buddy has a $4000 diagnostic computer to where he can read live data much more accurately. So please, calm your self down bud. No need to be an ass. He owns an iNdy shop in my area. I just don't like bothering him when I don't have to.


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Old 08-18-2014, 07:12 PM   #19
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I have a $250 scan tool, actron cp9580. So I'm not "screwing" around. I can get live and freeze data. My buddy has a $4000 diagnostic computer to where he can read live data much more accurately. So please, calm your self down bud. No need to be an ass. He owns an iNdy shop in my area. I just don't like bothering him when I don't have to.
Again, totally missing the point and you do not understand what you are talking about or what we need here.

I am not an ASS, I know what I am talking about, but you do not know who you should listen to, it's your choice.

I have more equipment than your buddy with an Indy shop and I use the smart phone Apps or my $60 Launch CreaderVI long before I pull out more expensive or higher end tools. Even the GT1 software will come up short in what is needed for basic OBDII troubleshooting.

Suggest you read some of these things below and figure out if you can do this with your current tool or your buddy with the $4000 tool even understands what were are looking for and why these graphs are important.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...726&highlight=

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showpos...9&postcount=34

Also suggest you read the links in my signature.
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Old 08-18-2014, 07:20 PM   #20
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Location: Fairfax, VA USA
Posts: 10,118
My Ride: '06 330CiC, '03 M5
Quote:
Originally Posted by BartenderPlease View Post
He gets very excited about his signature and loves telling people to read it, and doubts people frequently because he knows everything about the situation at hand, they do not.
I put a lot of effort into helping people on this forum an really get nothing in return. I also put quite a bit of time into the links in my signature and it saves me TIME and TIME again repeating myself. Also take a look at the view count of those specific threads, I think that speaks for itself.

Also this idea that people need all sorts of fancy and expensive tools is totally misguided and unwarranted.

If you you know how to use the tools and your head, smart phone App or software packages for under $30-$40 will run circles around tools costing even 100 times the cost of these.

The brain is by far the best tool and it is amazing how many people do not use it on a daily basis when they make their living at shops.

Just because someone works at or owns a shop means nothing about their abilities. Most shops only care about money and rarely LEARN anything along the way. They inappropriately use Labor Time Guides to over charge customers and often needlessly throw parts at problems and often miss the basics.

If people on this forum you listen and pay attention, they can learn how to do things for themselves and fix their own issues quickly and cost effectively.
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temps, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose fan switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299

Last edited by jfoj; 08-18-2014 at 07:21 PM.
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