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Old 12-19-2007, 12:27 AM   #81
ROYIII
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gaby
i'm sure with the age of your car the vanos seals would benefit your car. but it sounds as though you may have something more going on. i would recommend getting it checked out before dumping money into it. it will probably save you money in the long run... your description of a rattle is not help ful for the online crowd trying to help you diagnose your problem. you can get a "rattle" or vibration from bad engine mounts, a misfire can feel like a rattle i suppose. the zhp vanos has a rocks in a can rattle at times, or so i've read. where in the engine does the rattle come from? can you be more descriptive? do you know what a bogging or engine under load sounds like?
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Old 12-19-2007, 06:08 AM   #82
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^ I get that rocks in a can rattle at times. Guess i'm going to have to order this starting next year. Thanks for the advice guys.
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Old 12-19-2007, 06:19 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by jbeurotech View Post
I have to ask where you get this info because the vanos has no effect on the catlist warm up. They use overlap from the vanos to control NOX when the car is running they uses secondary air to WARM up the cats. i know you have identified and issue with these cars but you seem to put all the blame on the vanos(yes it does cause alot of issues) However the Crank vent valve can cause cold start issues. Software can cause cold start issues and so can a failing fuel pump or 3/2 valve and even the MAF(no disconnecting it is not a valid test). The Crankcase vent valve when they fail cause an internal air leak that cause the computer to add way to much fuel and can cause stalls check engine lights or worse. So while the vanos is a REAL issue it is not the only thing. Please properly diagnosis the car before throwing parts and causing to the wind.
So, it sounds like there are several things that can lead to cold start issues. I have a 2002 325i, standard tranny (5 spd), 125k miles. According to this thread, the M54 engine with a std tranny shouldn't have the severe cold start stall problem due to the Vanos, but these engines will have some smoothness and power loss over time due to the Vanos seals.
My car has had two cold start issues this winter (temp 5-15 F). It would start, but did not want to idle, ran lumpy like not all cylinders were firing, and I had to rev to 2000rpm to keep it going. Once it warmed up, it was fine. I thought it was water in the fuel and added isopropanol. However, it happened a second time. Once it smooths out and you go for a short drive and then stop, the rpm's bounce up and down instead of a smooth idle. Once warmed up, it runs fine. The next moring, it will most often cold start just fine. Very intermittent issue.
I wonder it I have two issues, the CVV causing the more severe cold start issues, and the Vanos seals perhaps failing, but symptoms from that issue are more subtle?
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Old 12-19-2007, 10:16 AM   #84
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^^ im sorry, no its not a rattle, its just a vibration not too strong but it has never happened before.
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Old 12-19-2007, 10:44 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by jbeurotech View Post
I have to ask where you get this info because the vanos has no effect on the catlist warm up.
See attached pdf.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Page from M52TU.pdf (6.8 KB, 481 views)
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Old 12-19-2007, 12:30 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by jbeurotech View Post
I have to ask where you get this info because the vanos has no effect on the catlist warm up. They use overlap from the vanos to control NOX when the car is running they uses secondary air to WARM up the cats. i know you have identified and issue with these cars but you seem to put all the blame on the vanos(yes it does cause alot of issues) However the Crank vent valve can cause cold start issues. Software can cause cold start issues and so can a failing fuel pump or 3/2 valve and even the MAF(no disconnecting it is not a valid test). The Crankcase vent valve when they fail cause an internal air leak that cause the computer to add way to much fuel and can cause stalls check engine lights or worse. So while the vanos is a REAL issue it is not the only thing. Please properly diagnosis the car before throwing parts and causing to the wind.
Here is an M52TU document. Page 27 references the benefits of the double vanos. The 4th point is its use to warm up the cats.
http://www.beisansystems.com/misc/SE...ROL_SYSTEM.pdf
“Rapid catalyst warm up and lower “raw” emissions after cold start.”

Here’s is a good article on the vanos. The fourth paragraph form the end notes the vanos use to warm-up the cats.
http://www.usautoparts.net/bmw/technology/vanos.htm
“Special engine management control maps for the warm-up phase help the catalytic converter reach operating temperature sooner.”

You are correct, there are many culprits for a rough idle. Fortunately the vanos idle problem presents in a fairly unique way and we have a diagnosis for it.
Here are sections from the first document I reference in the first post on this thread.

“The problem occurs on M52TU engine cars, 3 & 5 series 6-cylinder 1999-2000. It presents when the car is cold, ~ < 55° Fahrenheit, usually in the morning. The problem begins at the end of the warm-up period (elevated idle rpm). Thus the colder the car, the more delay after startup before the problem manifests. At the end of the warm-up period the engine begins a series of stall encounters. The engine rpm’s drop significantly, the engine shudders, and then the engine rpm’s recover. This engine jolt lasts ~1 second. It is followed by a steady idle for ~7 seconds. The cycle then repeats. This continues for ~4.25 minutes. The 7 second idle interval can also be shorter, even to a ~1 second interval. With some cars the engine will actually stall on one of the engine jolts. If the car is driven before/during the episode, the problem seems to be suppressed, unless the car shortly comes to an idle state where the problem reappears. If the hood is opened, a gear/chain like chatter can be heard during the stall encounters. The idle control valve can sometimes also be heard clunk open.
The M54 and M56 engines share the same vanos as the M52TU engine, but don’t exhibit the “vanos problem”.”

“The problem can be more definitively diagnosed by disconnecting the vanos intake or exhaust solenoid electrical connector. If the engine stalls seize then the problem is due to the vanos. The intake solenoid electrical connector is easier to access and is located to the left (at hood) of the oil filter canister. It’s at the end of a metal cylinder (solenoid).”

Hope this helps.
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Old 12-19-2007, 12:30 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by vstol View Post
See attached pdf.
Nice. What source is that? Looks like it would be a good read.

Edit: Whoops der it is ^^^
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Last edited by 328iBMW; 12-19-2007 at 01:18 PM.
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Old 12-19-2007, 01:07 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by gaby1088 View Post
Rajaie, the check engine light is not on. i was going to get the engine code read but then i though to myself, if the check engine light is not on then is there a code? Since its not really cold here in miami, i have no had the car stall, just last night that it was 59 degrees. the RMPs usually dont bounce around as much but the car does shake a lot when i turn the steering wheel in reverse only especially towards the maximum "turnage" of the steering wheel. also it almost always vibrates when the car is in drive, warm or cold and i am stopped. as soon as i accelerate it goes away. i have no idea what it could be. there are so many things it could be and most of them are only guesses. I know im probably no the only one but i cant find a definitive answer as to what it could be.
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Your problem is not the vanos.
My guess is the problem is a dirty ICV (idle control valve). Take out the ICV, clean it with a spray cleaner, like brake cleaner, and put it back.
There are several other culprits for your problem.
You can have a serious vacuum leak. This often comes from the CVV and its associated hoses. It could also come from the intake boots.
Try cleaning and tightening the coil/harness ground wires/straps.
This could be fuel supply related, like a dirty fuel filter or injectors. Use a bottle of fuel injector cleaner.
This might be the MAF sensor

There are other possibilities, but your idle vibration problem is not due to the vanos.
Please consider starting a new post thread on your symptom. I will be happy to participate in the discussion.

Last edited by Rajaie; 12-19-2007 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 12-19-2007, 04:16 PM   #89
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Rajaie, thanks i just cleaned my MAF and the problem seems to be fixed, im driving it like an old lady though im scared for the car to break hahaha. and for the idle control valve, i want to clean it but i have no idea how to take it off and i cant find a DIY, same for the coil and harness thing, if you know anything on how to do that, please PM me thanks again..


ps i did have another thread just no one answered. sorry for the interruption in your amazing vanos thing, i want to do it but right now i dont have the money for that for the installation but thanks!!
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Old 12-19-2007, 06:53 PM   #90
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What special tools do you need for this. Thinking of DIY'ing it.
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Old 12-19-2007, 08:20 PM   #91
Rajaie
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Originally Posted by ezpunkx View Post
What special tools do you need for this. Thinking of DIY'ing it.
Here is the vanos repair procedure on the Beisan website.
http://www.beisansystems.com/procedu..._procedure.htm

At the top of the procedure there is a list w/pictures of the needed tools. IF you have a mechanical fan, you might need a water pump holding tool. I list the OEM part, but this can be bought aftermarket. I know ZDMAK carrier one. There are no other special tools.
The engine timing is not disturbed during the repair, and thus does not need to be reset with all the special tools.
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Old 12-20-2007, 12:47 AM   #92
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SILVER325
i have the same cold start issue as you do.
i have an 02/2001 m54 engine

its slightly different than the m52tu cold start issue
but from random codes i've picked up it appears that i'm getting a lean condition at times. and when it runs rough like you mentioned i'll get misfire codes on occasion. but since i've moved to GA from MI it really hasn't been cold enough to do it.
i'll be doing the vanos seals in january or feb. so i'll post if this fixes our problem.
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Old 12-20-2007, 08:25 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by ROYIII View Post
SILVER325
i have the same cold start issue as you do.
i have an 02/2001 m54 engine

its slightly different than the m52tu cold start issue
but from random codes i've picked up it appears that i'm getting a lean condition at times. and when it runs rough like you mentioned i'll get misfire codes on occasion. but since i've moved to GA from MI it really hasn't been cold enough to do it.
i'll be doing the vanos seals in january or feb. so i'll post if this fixes our problem.
ROYIII,

Excellent! I'm going to look into a CVV replacement as a first step to this issue to see if it is easier and cheaper. However, it sounds like all of our cars could see a benefit from Rajaie's Vanos seal replacement kit. The DIY looks comprehensive and well done. Just need the time and tools. The hardest part looks to be getting the seals properly seated without rolling or tearing them. Thanks Rajaie!!
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Old 12-20-2007, 08:32 AM   #94
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wow, this looks like a hard DIY but i wanted to change my oil gasket seal cuz it has a minor leak and if i do that it looks like im more than half way there for the vanos...
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Old 12-20-2007, 10:55 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajaie View Post
Here is an M52TU document. Page 27 references the benefits of the double vanos. The 4th point is its use to warm up the cats.
http://www.beisansystems.com/misc/SE...ROL_SYSTEM.pdf
“Rapid catalyst warm up and lower “raw” emissions after cold start.”

Here’s is a good article on the vanos. The fourth paragraph form the end notes the vanos use to warm-up the cats.
http://www.usautoparts.net/bmw/technology/vanos.htm
“Special engine management control maps for the warm-up phase help the catalytic converter reach operating temperature sooner.”

You are correct, there are many culprits for a rough idle. Fortunately the vanos idle problem presents in a fairly unique way and we have a diagnosis for it.
Here are sections from the first document I reference in the first post on this thread.

“The problem occurs on M52TU engine cars, 3 & 5 series 6-cylinder 1999-2000. It presents when the car is cold, ~ < 55° Fahrenheit, usually in the morning. The problem begins at the end of the warm-up period (elevated idle rpm). Thus the colder the car, the more delay after startup before the problem manifests. At the end of the warm-up period the engine begins a series of stall encounters. The engine rpm’s drop significantly, the engine shudders, and then the engine rpm’s recover. This engine jolt lasts ~1 second. It is followed by a steady idle for ~7 seconds. The cycle then repeats. This continues for ~4.25 minutes. The 7 second idle interval can also be shorter, even to a ~1 second interval. With some cars the engine will actually stall on one of the engine jolts. If the car is driven before/during the episode, the problem seems to be suppressed, unless the car shortly comes to an idle state where the problem reappears. If the hood is opened, a gear/chain like chatter can be heard during the stall encounters. The idle control valve can sometimes also be heard clunk open.
The M54 and M56 engines share the same vanos as the M52TU engine, but don’t exhibit the “vanos problem”.”

“The problem can be more definitively diagnosed by disconnecting the vanos intake or exhaust solenoid electrical connector. If the engine stalls seize then the problem is due to the vanos. The intake solenoid electrical connector is easier to access and is located to the left (at hood) of the oil filter canister. It’s at the end of a metal cylinder (solenoid).”

Hope this helps.
Thanks RaJ I have read those articles and I know what it does for catalyst warm up however the major effect of cat warmup is still done by the secondary air system. I know the vanos plays a function however it play no more a function than a fixed cam setting in most cars. Vanos just allows for a more ideal position than a compromise hence no EGR is needed. Anywas thanks for clearing some of the inof up I just felt people were getting mislead into believing vanos was the ONLY cause other than that good work with the fix, Mabey next time a car needs a vanos i will try a set of your seals for my customers.
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Old 12-23-2007, 11:18 PM   #96
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I just finished my DIY install of the Beisan Seals on my 2000 328ci w/ 100K.
My car would stall every cold morning here in New Jersey, so we'll see if it happens anymore in the morning.

You should replace the valve cover gasket when doing this because the rubber gasket was more like plastic on my car and just cracked.

Removing the mechanical fan is a pain in the ass and I made my own tool, its hard to do without.

The car runs great, and seems to have alot more top end power. I also replaced the spark plugs, thermostat, waterpump, both belts, t-stat switch, and ofcourse new coolant.

The vanos part of the install went smoothly, but great care does have to be taken and you need a really good set of tools all around. Its a dirty job, but I'm sure its well worth it. The seals that were in my vanos were like old plastic, and cracked easily when removed.

I will continue to provide feedback on the install.

I am willing to talk to locals who want these installed but don't want to attempt this themselves. PM me for details.
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Old 12-23-2007, 11:24 PM   #97
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^^^ Yupps I've found the guy thats gonna do my install for me and his name is MPOWER325

I'm gonna do this sometime in the spring cuz I'm broke now but I also wanna buy a few things like spark plugs, T-stat, waterpump etc.

So take a few months rest and be ready to do it again. We'll def work something out.
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Old 12-26-2007, 06:46 AM   #98
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I have an 01 330i with 62k that's not stalling on cold days (<55F) but running really rough during idle. It's a noticable difference (smooth idle) when the ambient temp is about 60F and above..

Thanks for the great DIY!
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Old 12-26-2007, 07:44 AM   #99
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you're the man, i hope you solve this issue for thousands of E46 owners!! maybe at some point in the future I will conside this, although I do not have signs of this yet, at one point, i did experience a quavering idle when coming off the highway from fifth gear and going into neutral. I think it may have had to do with my cold air intake.. went back to normal airbox and it was fine, but now i've been running on my CAI for almost a full year and it's cold out now and still no more idle issues...
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Old 12-26-2007, 10:18 PM   #100
328iBMW
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I just did it today and the car fired right up and ran well. I can't wait to try and start it tomorrow morning when it's 45° F outside.

The instructions are the best that I've ever seen regarding anything that I've ever done in my life. Just take your time and do exactly what he says/shows. I ended up taking all day, but I was replacing some other things in there too.

I'll post back if I ever find a rough idle.

J
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