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General E46 Forum
This is the place to get answers, opinions and everything you need related to your E46 (sedan, coupe, convertible and wagon) BMW!

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Old 01-12-2008, 03:40 PM   #161
mpower325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elite53 View Post
Just ordered mine too...even though there is nothing noticeably wrong with my car. Guess I just fell for the sales pitch. Should be a good experiment though since my car runs fine with the old ones It will be interesting to see if there is any improvement in torque when the new ones go in.
Theres no sales pitch, these things sell themselves, this is a huge problem in the bmw community.
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Old 01-12-2008, 07:37 PM   #162
elite53
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SALES PITCH....Your car is broke, BMW doesn't care, buy my magic beans and everything will be all better.
At least thats what I heard...and now he has my money.
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Old 01-12-2008, 07:50 PM   #163
mpower325
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SALES PITCH....Your car is broke, BMW doesn't care, buy my magic beans and everything will be all better.
At least thats what I heard...and now he has my money.
you're a moron. This is a major problem with MANY of these cars. If your car is one that is not yet having the issue, don't buy the seal kit yet. Nobody took the money out of your pocket.

I seriously don't understand how you can complain though. This man spent time and money to develop something that benefits a huge part of the BMW community and you are saying that a "sales pitch" made you spend money on something you didn't need?

This product doesn't need any sales pitch, it sells itself. Educated people understand this.

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Old 01-12-2008, 07:56 PM   #164
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WOW- you are way too excited dude...I already told you that I've spent my money on these so I'm obviously not complaining.Take a couple of breaths and relax.
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Old 01-12-2008, 07:56 PM   #165
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Old 01-13-2008, 01:25 PM   #166
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i think i will be ordering a kit too. i'm getting the power loss under 3k rpm as well in my '03 330. not so sure i want to attempt the diy tho.
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Old 01-14-2008, 05:55 PM   #167
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I tried registering on the other forum but never got the email after several attempts. Anyways, my question is this:

I won't be able to drive the car 500 city miles as it's a race car(not street legal), what should I do?
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Old 01-14-2008, 06:59 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by vaio76109 View Post
I tried registering on the other forum but never got the email after several attempts. Anyways, my question is this:

I won't be able to drive the car 500 city miles as it's a race car(not street legal), what should I do?

Good question. Here is something I wrote in response to a similar question.

When new, Teflon seals have a rough machined surface finish. This finish will have a higher coefficient of friction and thus cause a higher resistance to movement of the vanos pistons in their cylinders. This will cause the vanos to perform less than optimally. Over time and wear from movement, the Teflon seals will become polished. This will lower the seals coefficient of friction and the resistance to movement of the pistons in the cylinders. This will in turn improve the vanos performance.

It is difficult to fully characterize the seals break-in process in the vanos. A faster fuller thrust of the seals in the cylinders will be an effective way to polish the seals. I expect the most effective driving method to accomplish this is city driving. This facilitates a broader range of RPM travel in the fastest period. This should translate directly to faster fuller travel of the seals in the cylinders.

Given all this, and consultation with seals experts, I hypothesized the break-in period to be ~500 miles of city driving.
This was defined to give owners a sense of when they can expect optimum vanos performance. There is really no concern with regards to the type of driving and its implication on the well being of the seals. The seal are capable of withstanding much greater speeds than the vanos function creates.

In time owner feedback might help better qualify this specification.


In your case, you can simply drive the car on the track and overtime the seals will break-in. Track (spirited) driving is likely the most effective way of breaking in the seals.

Otherwise you might consider a method of polishing the seals independent of driving. You might find a way of quickly moving the pistons back and forth in the cylinders, say a thousand times. You might attempt polishing the seals outer (seal) surface with a tool.

Hope this helps.
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Old 01-14-2008, 07:19 PM   #169
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i'm definitely looking into doing this as my 2000 328i has experienced this problem for the last 3-4 years. I'm excited that someone in our community has finally found the solution to the problem.

As far as the replacement goes, I wish I had known this sooner as I have already had my valve cover gaskets replaced per BMW recommendation. My question is will one break the valve cover gaskets when getting to the vanos? Not trying to replace something that just got replaced.
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Old 01-14-2008, 07:34 PM   #170
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i'm definitely looking into doing this as my 2000 328i has experienced this problem for the last 3-4 years. I'm excited that someone in our community has finally found the solution to the problem.

As far as the replacement goes, I wish I had known this sooner as I have already had my valve cover gaskets replaced per BMW recommendation. My question is will one break the valve cover gaskets when getting to the vanos? Not trying to replace something that just got replaced.
You will not break your new valve cover gaskets in the repair process and will be able to reuse them.
Here is an excerpt from the repair procedure that discusses this subject.

If the valve cover gaskets are over 40k miles (64k kilometers) old, then itís prudent to replace them during this repair. If they are over 80k miles (128k kilometers) old, then it is a requirement to replace them during this repair, otherwise they might leak due to being dismounted and reused. These gaskets have an estimated lifespan of ~60k miles (96k kilometers) and replacing them during this repair procedure requires no extra effort. The needed parts and replacement procedure are included as optional.
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Old 01-14-2008, 10:12 PM   #171
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Rajaie,

Reading through this thread (and several others you've posted), I suspect that the double VANOS on my '05 X5 4.4i has this issue. I've taken my vehicle to be diagnosed to the Stealer to no avail. To them, the noise from the VANOS, terrible acceleration, on-off idle vibration, and poor gas mileage - all compared to the time I first purchased it - is "normal". This all started just after the dealer did the first oil change, which they gave my vehicle back with only four quarts in it - 4 quarts too low. They blamed it on their new jr tech.

Can the VANOS seal kit be used on my X5? If so, I will order three, as my '06 330Cic needs the VANOS reseal.

Thanks!
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Old 01-14-2008, 11:23 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by bimmer22 View Post
Rajaie,

Reading through this thread (and several others you've posted), I suspect that the double VANOS on my '05 X5 4.4i has this issue. I've taken my vehicle to be diagnosed to the Stealer to no avail. To them, the noise from the VANOS, terrible acceleration, on-off idle vibration, and poor gas mileage - all compared to the time I first purchased it - is "normal". This all started just after the dealer did the first oil change, which they gave my vehicle back with only four quarts in it - 4 quarts too low. They blamed it on their new jr tech.

Can the VANOS seal kit be used on my X5? If so, I will order three, as my '06 330Cic needs the VANOS reseal.

Thanks!
Your 05 X5 4.4 has a v8 N62 engine. Unfortunately the seals kit does not apply to this engine and vanos.
Sorry but I donít know much about the N62 engine and its symptom issues.
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Old 01-15-2008, 11:59 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by bimmer22 View Post
Rajaie,

Reading through this thread (and several others you've posted), I suspect that the double VANOS on my '05 X5 4.4i has this issue. I've taken my vehicle to be diagnosed to the Stealer to no avail. To them, the noise from the VANOS, terrible acceleration, on-off idle vibration, and poor gas mileage - all compared to the time I first purchased it - is "normal". This all started just after the dealer did the first oil change, which they gave my vehicle back with only four quarts in it - 4 quarts too low. They blamed it on their new jr tech.

Can the VANOS seal kit be used on my X5? If so, I will order three, as my '06 330Cic needs the VANOS reseal.

Thanks!

If you can document that the problem (VANOS noise) started right after the deficient oil change, I would contact the BMW regional office and ask them to have the regional tech check your X5. Other, more serious damage could have been done when the "jr. tech" failed to add 4 qts of oil. If the regional tech can't give you a satisfactory solution, then contact BMW NA. If the BMW NA customer service gives you a run around, then write a letter to the president of BMW NA. Mark the evelope "Strictly Private and Personal." Provide copies of all documentation, etc. Ensure that you tell the BMW NA prez that you're a loyal bimmer driver, a longtime member of the BMWCCA, the X5 is your 4th or 5th bimmer, and that you are interested in continuing bimmer ownership, etc. That usually worx.

Last edited by markusmark; 01-15-2008 at 12:03 PM.
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Old 01-21-2008, 11:31 PM   #174
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I have a scan tool (AutoEnginuity) that can retrieve vanos parameters real-time. Screenshot below:



My understanding is that vanos control acts as a closed loop: DME sets a target/specified angle, then actuates the vanos solenoid, and senses feedback via the difference of the angles of the crankshaft sensor and the respective camshaft sensors. I was thinking that I can check the reaction time of the vanos (hence the vanos seals) by seeing if the "Actual Position" tracks the "Specified Position" closely. A badly leaking seal would be slow in reacting, or worse, not move at all.

Here's a table summarizing those parameters through 3 diff running conditions I gathered (values are in degrees):



It looks like the "Actual Position" tracks the "Specified Position" closely. Unfortunately, the scan tool samples the data very slowly (>3secs) so I couldn't really know what the reaction time was.

Can anyone explain the numbers and what "Reference Position" and "Flank Adaptation" are? And are the angles referenced against TDC with peak valve opening?
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Old 01-22-2008, 11:17 AM   #175
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I can't answer that question BUT where can I get that tool to monitor the real time information? I wish I could have compared before and after information when I did my VANOS rebuild.

Todd
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Old 01-28-2008, 10:18 AM   #176
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It was the VANOS all this time...

Ok, for almost 2 years I have been trying to get my power back. I have spent countless hours, lots of money, lots of time going from dealer to dealer and replacing sensors on my own to attempt to resolve this, but to no avail.

I keep reading about the Vanos issue that many suffer from and the common symptoms were rough cold start, I never had this problem, but then again my car is always parked in the garage and it never gets that cold here in Atlanta. So I figured my Vanos is ok.


I stay of this forum just to see if anyone had resolved their sluggish issueís other that resetting the adaption with that 10 sec key trick. I notice the Vanos Kit that is now available. I started to look at the instructions and realized to myself, this looks simple enough. I removed my Valve cover before to replace the gasket and it took no time at all, so I said, what the heck let me give it a try. I spent $80 to have a vacuum test performed on this car and I donít even have any signs that it was really done, so whatís $60 for a part, that I know will be installed, so I ordered the part and installed it myself.


Installation was so easy, on the forums all you hear about out is ďI hope it isnít your VanosĒ Man; I tell you they really know how to scare someone on these forums. It really isnít that hard at all. When I took my old Vanos apart,it didnít feel like there was any play in the cylinders it felt pretty tight, but I figured, what the heck, I got it out I might as well change it anyway.


I didnít notice any difference in start up or driving, but the instructions said that I would need to drive for 500 miles to break it in and spirited driving helps to break it in faster. So me being smart, I took the word ďSpiritĒ for Driving nice and slow. I did this for about 700 miles and didnít feel a difference still.

Then, one day I was coming out of the BMW Dealerís parking lot, I had to cross over 2 lanes of traffic(very difficult) well a car that was trying to turn into the parking lot gave me the signal to go, so I hit/spirit it and WOW!!!!!! I said no! This canít be, my power is back! So I get on the highway and I could immediately feel something different about my car. The power is really here. I had fun all the way to work.

My car is beginning to feel like it did before, that feel of being in 3rd gear, while actually being in 5th is so beautiful. This is what I was missing before. Passing cars on the highway is effortless. All I do is gently tap the accelerator and the car pulls strong. I really believe the Vanos was the problem from the beginning.

I donít know why I never bothered to change this. BMW sells a new Vanos for $400, I spent more money and time on this car, that I could have paid for a new Vanos 3 times over.

And it now makes sense to me, one of the mechanics I took the car to before told me that if your check engine light isnít on and your car feels sluggish, chances are the problem is Mechanical and will eventually break. In BMWís case a bad VANOS may never break, it just wonít work the way it should.

Iíve been fighting this problem since 120k I now have 173k on the clock.

A little advice, replaces your Vanos seals before spending money on other sensors especially if you do not have a Check Engine Light on.

Thanks,

Rajaie

I owe you one


Last edited by abeaujuin; 01-28-2008 at 11:13 AM.
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Old 01-28-2008, 11:16 PM   #177
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I put in the new seals tonight along with a new valve cover gasket, start to finish was 4.75 hrs, I don't have any review on it though as I can't drive the car. Those were by far the easiest directions I've ever used.
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Old 01-29-2008, 09:29 AM   #178
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So easy...

You telling me. I was scared for over 2 years after reading others post about Vanos being expensive and hard to do. My mother could have done this.
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Old 02-02-2008, 01:21 AM   #179
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First off, thank you for answering all the questions related to your product, it really does put me at ease.

I plan on buying this kit for peace of mind when it warms up above freezing temps so I can do the install, but I wanted to double check on a few things.

I am experiencing loss of low end power, and my engine has just under 50k...so I can assume the new seals will help. My question is this...I have no cold start issue whatsoever, and the car has never stalled on me, but when it's warmed up and I let it just idle, the RPM will dip from 650ish to maybe 600ish and cause a slight vibration. The vibration only lasts for a second and comes on every minute or so. I also have the same mild vibration at exactly 2000rpm under load (not free-reving the engine). Have you seen this problem attributed to bad VANOS seals?
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Old 02-02-2008, 07:18 PM   #180
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The 01+ cars do not experience the infamous cold weather cold start idle jolts and possible stall that the 00-99 experience.
Your low end power loss is most likely the failing vanos seals. By 50k the seal O-rings are fully cooked.
Your warm idle dips and vibrations are caused by the failing vanos seals. These are small idle jolts. I have not mentioned this before, but it is the vanos seals. I'll have to remember to add this to the list of symptoms.
Your partial load low rpm hiccups (or hesitations) are due to the failing vanos seals.

So, all these symptoms are the failing vanos seals.
It's useful that you pointed all this out. Thanks.
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