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Old 02-05-2008, 02:45 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by AfghanScarface View Post
very nicely said.





and if AMG and ///M join forces then I would proceed to stab myself in the eye.

AMG was sick when they were a separate entity from Mercedes circa late 80's early 90's. None of that cushy bulky new crap they have been regurgitating lately.
Do I need to spell it out...good hell!! I'm not saying that M and AMG should literally combine as a company, damn emotional nitwits on here, I'm saying that if M3's/M5's/M6's had the torque that AMG's produce, then it would be a bit more understandable that you pray to the M division every night. You're delusional if you say you wouldn't want an M3 with a hell of a lot more torque.

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Old 02-05-2008, 02:50 PM   #42
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It's still going to be an E92 M3, just upgraded. I could bet money that there will be no engine change, just performance tweaks as with the E46 CSL. Airbox, software etc.
Stylewise the E46CSL was a benchmark. Come on, even nowadays everyone is imitating the visuals and buys aftermarket parts. OEM, Euro-Spec, Vorsteiner etc... everyone wants the CSL look.

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Originally Posted by cowmoo32 View Post
IF the US gets it, and that's a big if, I bet it won't be as hardcore track oriented as the euro version. I seriously doubt Americans would buy a car that's ~$90k that doesn't have A/C and a radio. We'll probably see more CF and a little weight saved.
A/C and radio were options in the E46CSL aswell, but it would just add weight and be "less sportive".

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Originally Posted by 330performance View Post
it would be a shame if BMW abandoned the CSL philosophy only because it doesnt fit into the american market...
Did you know that BMW had trouble getting the E46 CSL sold at start? It was so overpriced and wasn't that much better for most people to pay up to it.

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Originally Posted by Coldintake View Post
I beg to differ. You're saying 100kg's is easy to shed? The e46 csl had it's AC stripped, among other such things such as the glass being thinner and a cardboard trunk floor. If they do build it, it will be severely stripped down, which in that case pushes it into the gt3 category.
to strip the E92 M3 down by 100kg is not hard looking at the CSL perspective. Take out the heated, electric leather seats and throw in some CF buckets. Take out the AC, radio, HK sound system and you should already have the achieved weight.

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blah blah blah blah blah...that was honestly painful to read. That was the most redundant, repetitive post...in fact, I didn't even read the whole thing. You are preaching to the choir brainiac. Do you ever get sick of saying the same thing over and over again? or just repeating what has been said a gazillion times before? lol, yeah, bmw's M division is all about driving dynamic, the overall performance machine, basically more racecar oriented, as apposed to AMG which is about making luxurious, comfortable rides, with a hand-built refined torque monster under the hood. I already said what you said, in two sentences, in my last post...so stop with your emotional rants which contain the most obvious material. Why would I want AMG and M to combine? Who the hell wouldn't want an M3 with the torque of an e63 AMG? lol, dude you are so brainwashed by the BMW propaganda if you would say no to that question, that's my point with "being brainwashed by bmw's press releases." I rest my case.
It seems you have no idea what an M3 is about. So you have an AMG and no M and think that they are so much superior in certain aspects that it would be best to merge the companies. Have you ever tracked your car? Have you ever driven an M3 sportively? I doubt you did either, so I would guess you have no idea what you are talking about.
If M GmbH would have wanted lots of power in the E46 CSL, why didn't they throw in the E39 M5 engine and tweaked it? Why did they only go from 343hp to 360? That fact alone doesn't fit to what you think about M3's.
Face it: The M3 is more of an everyday usable track car than vice versa, and the CSL is the superlative from it. No V10, no turbo, just loads of RPM directly then when you need them. That S65 engine is the largest technical leap BMW has ever done, and it is one of the most advanced engines in the world. Why would you want to change that for some AMG engine?
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Old 02-05-2008, 02:53 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by jolly944 View Post
Do I need to spell it out...good hell!! I'm not saying that M and AMG should literally combine as a company, damn emotional nitwits on here, I'm saying that if M3's/M5's/M6's had the torque that AMG's produce, then it would be a bit more understandable that you pray to the M division every night. You're delusional if you say you wouldn't want an M3 with a hell of a lot more torque.
M3's are all about the perfect balance, not about the power, how often do you need to hear it?
If BMW wanted to give it more torque, they would have. But it would have handled totally differently and they wanted the perfect balance.

Sheesh, sometimes ignorance isn't bliss
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Old 02-05-2008, 03:03 PM   #44
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It seems you have no idea what an M3 is about. So you have an AMG and no M and think that they are so much superior in certain aspects that it would be best to merge the companies. Have you ever tracked your car? Have you ever driven an M3 sportively? I doubt you did either, so I would guess you have no idea what you are talking about.
If M GmbH would have wanted lots of power in the E46 CSL, why didn't they throw in the E39 M5 engine and tweaked it? Why did they only go from 343hp to 360? That fact alone doesn't fit to what you think about M3's.
Face it: The M3 is more of an everyday usable track car than vice versa, and the CSL is the superlative from it. No V10, no turbo, just loads of RPM directly then when you need them. That S65 engine is the largest technical leap BMW has ever done, and it is one of the most advanced engines in the world. Why would you want to change that for some AMG engine?
Dude, read my last post...enough of the "you obviously don't know what M is all about...blah blah blah..." I've sufficiently supported the fact that I do understand your redundant M jargon. Do you read? I've repeatedly explained the fact that BMW Motorsports produces engineering marvels, with regards to overall performance capability. So enough of the I've-been-b1tch-slapped-by-M GmbH comments like "you obviously don't know what M is all about..." Just about everything you know about M, I do as well, that's why I'm an avid member on this forum. I just happen to believe that an e46 M3 or any M for that matter, would be that much better if it had the torque that AMG's have...it's idealistic and rather unrealistic, but that was my point...why do 99% of you mod, and fantasize about a SC/HPF M3?? to get more mutherfvcking power!!! quite a bit of a contradiction wouldn't you say?
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Old 02-05-2008, 03:12 PM   #45
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M3's are all about the perfect balance, not about the power, how often do you need to hear it?
If BMW wanted to give it more torque, they would have. But it would have handled totally differently and they wanted the perfect balance.

Sheesh, sometimes ignorance isn't bliss
That's just plain wrong, and to be honest, stupid. To say that if you have a lot of hp/torque then the car won't handle properly. Wow, could you be more retarded? Ever heard of the GT2? 997TT? Ferrari 599GTB Fiorano? hmm...yeah, that 620hp 6.0 V12, too much Murcielago LP640? Dude, enough said.
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Old 02-05-2008, 03:15 PM   #46
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Dude, read my last post...enough of the "you obviously don't know what M is all about...blah blah blah..." I've sufficiently supported the fact that I do understand your redundant M jargon. Do you read? I've repeatedly explained the fact that BMW Motorsports produces engineering marvels, with regards to overall performance capability. So enough of the I've-been-b1tch-slapped-by-M GmbH comments like "you obviously don't know what M is all about..." Just about everything you know about M, I do as well, that's why I'm an avid member on this forum. I just happen to believe that an e46 M3 or any M for that matter, would be that much better if it had the torque that AMG's have...it's idealistic and rather unrealistic, but that was my point...why do 99% of you mod, and fantasize about a SC/HPF M3?? to get more mutherfvcking power!!! quite a bit of a contradiction wouldn't you say?
What do modders have to do with the M GmbH not FI-ing their cars?
I would still like to hear WHY you think more power is ultimately better in your eyes, since you haven't backed your statement.
The E46 CSL never came to the US officially, and over here you wouldn't see one with an FI kit, most of them are stock. Would you call that ignorant or rather that they value the perfectly balanced work BMW has done with it?
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Old 02-05-2008, 03:42 PM   #47
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What do modders have to do with the M GmbH not FI-ing their cars?
I would still like to hear WHY you think more power is ultimately better in your eyes, since you haven't backed your statement.
The E46 CSL never came to the US officially, and over here you wouldn't see one with an FI kit, most of them are stock. Would you call that ignorant or rather that they value the perfectly balanced work BMW has done with it?
You conveniently never responded to the cars I referenced that nullify your entire argument...please respond to that. Is Ferrari, Porsche, Lambo, Bugatti, etc..all wrong too? These cars aren't as well balanced as the M3's because they have too much power? come on dude...you have no argument here.
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Old 02-05-2008, 03:48 PM   #48
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Did you seriously just ask me why more power is better in my eyes?? Sounds like you should just buy a go-kart and call it a day, it's nice and light, well balanced, handles like a dream, and doesn't have any power.

Why do those CSL owners keep their cars stock? You say it's because "they prefer the perfect balanced work BMW has done with it.." You're just a fanboy dude, they buy the CSL because they:

a. either already own a Ferrari and P-car OR
b. can't afford the ferrari or p-car.

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Old 02-05-2008, 04:04 PM   #49
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You conveniently never responded to the cars I referenced that nullify your entire argument...please respond to that. Is Ferrari, Porsche, Lambo, Bugatti, etc..all wrong too? These cars aren't as well balanced as the M3's because they have too much power? come on dude...you have no argument here.
WHat nullifies my argument? That you can get cars with more power? That a lot of people who don't track their cars regularly FI them for the straight line power? Have you ever seen reviews on AMG's and on M3's at all? Just the recent ones about the C63 vs the M3. Why does the M3 have the overall better drivability? I doubt because it doesn't have enough power in your eyes

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Did you seriously just ask me why more power is better in my eyes?? Sounds like you should just buy a go-kart and call it a day, it's nice and light, well balanced, handles like a dream, and doesn't have any power.

Why do those CSL owners keep their cars stock? You say it's because "they prefer the perfect balanced work BMW has done with it.." You're just a fanboy dude, they buy the CSL because they:

a. either already own a Ferrari and P-car OR
b. can't afford the ferrari or p-car.

You do realize that you can get more powerful cars for the price of a CSL? Why didn't they go with that then, since you say that power is so much better?

And since you are an AMG fanboy, if you want to call me that too, I bet the Brabus cars are your little fantasies, because they have soooooo much power? I wonder what would go better around the Nordschleife: The E46 CSL or the Brabus Bullet...
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Old 02-05-2008, 04:20 PM   #50
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WHat nullifies my argument? That you can get cars with more power? That a lot of people who don't track their cars regularly FI them for the straight line power? Have you ever seen reviews on AMG's and on M3's at all? Just the recent ones about the C63 vs the M3. Why does the M3 have the overall better drivability? I doubt because it doesn't have enough power in your eyes

You do realize that you can get more powerful cars for the price of a CSL? Why didn't they go with that then, since you say that power is so much better?

And since you are an AMG fanboy, if you want to call me that too, I bet the Brabus cars are your little fantasies, because they have soooooo much power? I wonder what would go better around the Nordschleife: The E46 CSL or the Brabus Bullet...
Well, looks like you've shown your inability to read or argue properly...I never once said POWER IS BETTER go back, read every comment of mine, and then we can talk some more. Actually, I'll do you the favor of quoting one of my previous comments...

Quote:
Originally posted by: Jolly944
You're right HP numbers of themselves are just a piece of the performance puzzle. But, don't be naive, it's a very important part of the puzzle.
I don't find power to be more important than "overall drivability," I find both to be equally important pieces of the performance puzzle, which is why I will be purchasing a 997TT in the near future. I love M's, in fact, growing up I practically worshiped M3's, just like you do, but then I took my head out of the clouds and realized I was being naive. There are cars that have the power and torque like AMG's, while having the driving dynamics and high revving horses that M's are known for...it's called porsche. Once again I pose this question to you, which you always manage to ignore...are these cars that completely subscribe to my argument (997tt/gt2/LP640/599GTB/Veyron..etc) suffering because of their massive (amg-like) power output?

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Old 02-05-2008, 04:24 PM   #51
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Did you seriously just ask me why more power is better in my eyes?? Sounds like you should just buy a go-kart and call it a day, it's nice and light, well balanced, handles like a dream, and doesn't have any power.

Why do those CSL owners keep their cars stock? You say it's because "they prefer the perfect balanced work BMW has done with it.." You're just a fanboy dude, they buy the CSL because they:

a. either already own a Ferrari and P-car OR
b. can't afford the ferrari or p-car.

Whoooow Bring out the !! This thread is going to get reeeaal good soon !

Its too late now over here but wait till I get back son, then we can start some serious talking bout AMGs and Ms
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Old 02-05-2008, 04:32 PM   #52
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^^lol, this isn't an amg vs m topic...damn, people, read what I've said, because it seems that plenty are getting the wrong idea. I think both have their positives, but it's absolutely true, that M's are superior performers in most categories than AMG's. All I've said, is that it would be great if M's had the torque/power of some AMG's, simple as that.
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Old 02-05-2008, 04:45 PM   #53
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Well, looks like you've shown your inability to read or argue properly...I never once said POWER IS BETTER go back, read every comment of mine, and then we can talk some more. Actually, I'll do you the favor of quoting one of my previous comments...



I don't find power to be more important than "overall drivability," I find both to be equally important pieces of the performance puzzle, which is why I will be purchasing a 997TT in the near future. I love M's, in fact, growing up I practically worshiped M3's, just like you do, but then I took my head out of the clouds and realized I was being naive. There are cars that have the power and torque like AMG's, while having the driving dynamics and high revving horses that M's are known for...it's called porsche. Once again I pose this question to you, which you always manage to ignore...are these cars that completely subscribe to my argument (997tt/gt2/LP640/599GTB/Veyron..etc) suffering because of their massive (amg-like) power output?
All those cars are more expensive and are worse in every day driving.

It's not that I am ignoring your statements, but you fail to see my point. I am well aware that there are better track cars. Much better. But I would like to see how those are in everyday life. Drop the kids off to school, quickly grab some groceries on your drive home etc.
If I'd have the cash, I'd buy my future wife a Lambo, since the trunk is so small
I have never stated that BMW is superior in terms of performance, track usage or practicability. But in combination, there are very few cars that do this better, and honestly, you haven't named me one. AMG is very practical (Mercedes, duh) and have lots of power. But it isn't as good for the track because of the high ride comfort, which overtones the sportiveness. If you're all about power and luxury, AMG would be the deal.
Porsches are GREAT for the track, very sportive, lots of power, but what about every day use? My uncle rather uses the 90hp Golf Mk3 for shopping than his Porsche. And not to save gas either, because he gets cigarettes with the "P-Car".

But what am I making the counter examples, shouldn't you be the one, since I am such a fanboy?
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Old 02-05-2008, 04:48 PM   #54
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^^lol, this isn't an amg vs m topic...damn, people, read what I've said, because it seems that plenty are getting the wrong idea. I think both have their positives, but it's absolutely true, that M's are superior performers in most categories than AMG's. All I've said, is that it would be great if M's had the torque/power of some AMG's, simple as that.
And all what it's about for ///M is balancing the given power to cope with the rest of the performance circle. Either they haven't figured it out yet with a higher powered engine, or they simply didn't feel like they needed to put in more than 420hp into the E92 M3.

And not that it isn't enough, at least I can say I have driven in it to tell first hand.
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Old 02-05-2008, 04:54 PM   #55
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All those cars are more expensive and are worse in every day driving.

It's not that I am ignoring your statements, but you fail to see my point. I am well aware that there are better track cars. Much better. But I would like to see how those are in everyday life. Drop the kids off to school, quickly grab some groceries on your drive home etc.
If I'd have the cash, I'd buy my future wife a Lambo, since the trunk is so small
I have never stated that BMW is superior in terms of performance, track usage or practicability. But in combination, there are very few cars that do this better, and honestly, you haven't named me one. AMG is very practical (Mercedes, duh) and have lots of power. But it isn't as good for the track because of the high ride comfort, which overtones the sportiveness. If you're all about power and luxury, AMG would be the deal.
Porsches are GREAT for the track, very sportive, lots of power, but what about every day use? My uncle rather uses the 90hp Golf Mk3 for shopping than his Porsche. And not to save gas either, because he gets cigarettes with the "P-Car".

But what am I making the counter examples, shouldn't you be the one, since I am such a fanboy?
Now that was a very respectable post...point taken. It seems I misunderstood your point of view, as I think you did the same with me. You're right, when it comes to a cars ability to do everyday things well...then absolutely, the M is right close to the top. But, with that argument, AWD is far more drivable and better for everyday use...therefore, RS4? jk, I'd take the M anyday before the rs4...but honestly, the porsche still has the M beat I think. 997tt to me, is the best all-around, drivers car, capable of doing everything, from driving in the snow to going to the track. I think most owners don't use them as DD because they spend a lot of money on it, and never meant for it to be the DD, when in reality, Porsche designed it to be the ultimate DD. Just my opinion.
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Old 02-05-2008, 04:58 PM   #56
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And all what it's about for ///M is balancing the given power to cope with the rest of the performance circle. Either they haven't figured it out yet with a higher powered engine, or they simply didn't feel like they needed to put in more than 420hp into the E92 M3.

And not that it isn't enough, at least I can say I have driven in it to tell first hand.
Come on man, you know full well, being a passenger isn't a viable driving experience...right? In any case, I can't wait to just sit in the passenger seat of the e92 M
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Old 02-05-2008, 05:10 PM   #57
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Now that was a very respectable post...point taken. It seems I misunderstood your point of view, as I think you did the same with me. You're right, when it comes to a cars ability to do everyday things well...then absolutely, the M is right close to the top. But, with that argument, AWD is far more drivable and better for everyday use...therefore, RS4? jk, I'd take the M anyday before the rs4...but honestly, the porsche still has the M beat I think. 997tt to me, is the best all-around, drivers car, capable of doing everything, from driving in the snow to going to the track. I think most owners don't use them as DD because they spend a lot of money on it, and never meant for it to be the DD, when in reality, Porsche designed it to be the ultimate DD. Just my opinion.
The 997TT is surely a great car, insane performance and perfect traction. And if you only need a two seater, it also has enough space for small traveling luggage in the rear seats and the front trunk. I drove in the back of one when I was picking up my car from the garage, and I wouldn't want to sit there for longer than 15 minutes TBH
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Old 02-05-2008, 05:19 PM   #58
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The 997TT is surely a great car, insane performance and perfect traction. And if you only need a two seater, it also has enough space for small traveling luggage in the rear seats and the front trunk. I drove in the back of one when I was picking up my car from the garage, and I wouldn't want to sit there for longer than 15 minutes TBH
Yeah, my father-in-law has a 997 turbo cabriolet, drove that...just love it A lot of my family members have 997's, and I just love them. Beautiful interior, very comfortable, bells and whistles... I'll take the GT2 though.
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Old 02-05-2008, 05:22 PM   #59
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GTR killer
leave the gtr out of this, unless you are comparing it to the v-spec or z-tune version then lets which is faster
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Old 02-05-2008, 05:29 PM   #60
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^^lol, this isn't an amg vs m topic...damn, people, read what I've said, because it seems that plenty are getting the wrong idea. I think both have their positives, but it's absolutely true, that M's are superior performers in most categories than AMG's. All I've said, is that it would be great if M's had the torque/power of some AMG's, simple as that.
ok...obviously you still dont understand what I'm trying to tell you here....

I have driven the GT2/GT3, and yes they are incredible cars... but you are digging your own hole here... the GT3 follows the same basic principles as the CSL.

Cars like the GT3, and the CSL only work because they form a perfect combination of what is desireable in a driving enthusiasts car. Both are trying to combine the best of everything into a very capable platform. There are cars that handle better, there are cars that have more horsepower, and yes, there are cars that are more practicable... but normally you can only have two of the three. With a car like the CSL you get pretty damn close to having the best of everything. Its a very good overall package... so good infact, that you dont need any substantial changes. The CSL engine is not a torque monster... but it also was never intended to be one. An engine with lots of torque would throw this car off balance, and make it lose its defining characteristics. An ///M engine is expected to rev at high rpm's, it is expected to be used in high gear, and it is not the kind of engine that you would combine with an automatic transmission.
What I mentioned works well for BMW... what AMG does seems to be working well for AMG. Ultimately, you either like one or the other, but they dont work as a combination.

I hope you have enough sense to stop insulting people. What I said in my previous post did make sense... and you not taking the time to read it all just proves how ignorant and (excuse me) stupid you really are... if you had read (and understood) my previous post, I would'nt have needed to take the time to break this whole thing down even more...

If you insist on keeping up your BS.... be my guest... I always get my point across...
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