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Old 02-05-2008, 05:40 PM   #61
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they confirm it even before launching the car worldwide? alittle premature perhaps?
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Old 02-05-2008, 05:42 PM   #62
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ok...obviously you still dont understand what I'm trying to tell you here....

I have driven the GT2/GT3, and yes they are incredible cars... but you are digging your own hole here... the GT3 follows the same basic principles as the CSL.

Cars like the GT3, and the CSL only work because they form a perfect combination of what is desireable in a driving enthusiasts car. Both are trying to combine the best of everything into a very capable platform. There are cars that handle better, there are cars that have more horsepower, and yes, there are cars that are more practicable... but normally you can only have two of the three. With a car like the CSL you get pretty damn close to having the best of everything. Its a very good overall package... so good infact, that you dont need any substantial changes. The CSL engine is not a torque monster... but it also was never intended to be one. An engine with lots of torque would throw this car off balance, and make it lose its defining characteristics. An ///M engine is expected to rev at high rpm's, it is expected to be used in high gear, and it is not the kind of engine that you would combine with an automatic transmission.
What I mentioned works well for BMW... what AMG does seems to be working well for AMG. Ultimately, you either like one or the other, but they dont work as a combination.

I hope you have enough sense to stop insulting people. What I said in my previous post did make sense... and you not taking the time to read it all just proves how ignorant and (excuse me) stupid you really are... if you had read (and understood) my previous post, I would'nt have needed to take the time to break this whole thing down even more...

If you insist on keeping up your BS.... be my guest... I always get my point across...
First off, when I said I didn't even read your previous post...it was only to prove a point, I did actually read, though it was painful, not because it didn't make sense once again, I never said it didn't make sense, I said it was redundant and repetitive, information that is very elementary in nature, information that I already know, in fact my wife probably knows all of that. . Anyway, I don't disagree with anything you said. You just don't seem to realize or understand that you are trying to teach elementary M info to somebody who doesn't have an elementary level M understanding. I'm by no means an expert, or even close to some of the members here with the extent of knowledge they have. But everything you said I already know, therefore it's just repetitive and redundant. Simple as that.

Maybe the problem is the fact that I own an AMG, and it's in my profile, therefore automatically so many of you ASSUME I'm the typical amg owner...tisk tisk tisk, not so my friend. I have my clk55 because I wanted that car for the purpose of a luxurious, comfortable, torque monster of a cruiser.
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Old 02-05-2008, 05:47 PM   #63
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First off, when I said I didn't even read your previous post...it was only to prove a point, I did actually read, though it was painful, not because it didn't make sense once again, I never said it didn't make sense, I said it was redundant and repetitive, information that is very elementary in nature, information that I already know, in fact my wife probably knows all of that. . Anyway, I don't disagree with anything you said. You just don't seem to realize or understand that you are trying to teach elementary M info to somebody who doesn't have an elementary level M understanding. I'm by no means an expert, or even close to some of the members here with the extent of knowledge they have. But everything you said I already know, therefore it's just repetitive and redundant. Simple as that.

Maybe the problem is the fact that I own an AMG, and it's in my profile, therefore automatically so many of you ASSUME I'm the typical amg owner...tisk tisk tisk, not so my friend. I have my clk55 because I wanted that car for the purpose of a luxurious, comfortable, torque monster of a cruiser.
if your ///M knowledge isnt elementary, you have done a very good job at proving the exact opposite....

congratulations chief...
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Old 02-05-2008, 06:01 PM   #64
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if your ///M knowledge isnt elementary, you have done a very good job at proving the exact opposite....

congratulations chief...
I truely believe you are mentally handicapped.

Go and read the last 20 posts slowhead. You haven't added anything to this conversation, only stated the most obvious and repetitive information known to the car world. The fact that M builds track inspired cars, while AMG builds cruising beasts, was never debated genius.
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Old 02-05-2008, 06:08 PM   #65
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I truely believe you are mentally handicapped.

Go and read the last 20 posts slowhead. You haven't added anything to this conversation, only stated the most obvious and repetitive information known to the car world. The fact that M builds track inspired cars, while AMG builds cruising beasts, was never debated genius.
after 20 posts you still think that combining both ///M and AMG characteristics would combine to make a great car

your assumption led me to belive that you needed a little information on what both divisions are all about... obviously this was a little unclear to you

your way of expressing yourself leads me to believe that you need a little information on how to not make yourself look like a complete a$$hat...

none of what I wrote was considered to be debateable, it was simply intended to show you how much of dumba$$ you are for saying that AMG and ///M would work well together...
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Old 02-05-2008, 06:25 PM   #66
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after 20 posts you still think that combining both ///M and AMG characteristics would combine to make a great car

your assumption led me to belive that you needed a little information on what both divisions are all about... obviously this was a little unclear to you

your way of expressing yourself leads me to believe that you need a little information on how to not make yourself look like a complete a$$hat...

none of what I wrote was considered to be debateable, it was simply intended to show you how much of dumba$$ you are for saying that AMG and ///M would work well together...
blah blah blah blah blah did you just say the same sh1t once again? lol...amazing, your brain should be studied to be the missing link between humans and apes.

As for M and AMG "combining" Do you fall asleep while you read? lol, you're like that guy in the movie Momento who can't remember anything while it occurs so he has to write it down and tatoo it on his body. Write this down half-wit...I never said that amg and m should literally unite, lol...that might cause people like yourself to doubt bmw's omnipotence...I'll quote a previous comment that you must have read backwards, you damn blockhead...

Quote:
Originally Posted by: jolly944
All I've said, is that it would be great if M's had the torque/power of some AMG's, simple as that.
/argument
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Old 02-05-2008, 06:33 PM   #67
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haha... you just proved my point once again...

ok... reeeal slow this time.... bare with me....

an M car...

does not need...

more power...

and torque...

this would throw off...

the entire balance...

of the car...

do... you... understand...?

i really hope so... restating how wrong you are is almost as exciting as watching paint dry...

noticing how you dont seem to be able to understand what I'm trying to get across, also makes me feel extremely sorry for you...

Last edited by 330performance; 02-05-2008 at 06:37 PM.
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Old 02-05-2008, 06:45 PM   #68
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haha... you just proved my point once again...

ok... reeeal slow this time.... bare with me....

an M car...

does not need...

more power...

and torque...

this would throw off...

the entire balance...

of the car...

do... you... understand...?

i really hope so... restating how wrong you are is almost as exciting as watching paint dry...
get your own material corky...I'm the one making fun of you for your inability to comprehend.

So M cars don't need more power? looks like you've tripped yourself up on this one slowhead...durrr you're about as smart as Stimpy from "the Ren and Stimpy Show." If M cars didn't need more power, bmw and their supernatural M division wouldn't continue to increase the power outputs of each upgraded generation, oh wait, they are players in this HP war too, oh no!! and 500 bhp? no that's not very much...bahaha, Obviously M engineers feel they need more power. What are you going to do when the next M3 has upwards of 500-600 hp? oooh nooooo too much power!!! no that won't ever happen, because M's don't need more power... Go buy a go-kart super mario.

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Old 02-05-2008, 06:48 PM   #69
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Ehh, most of you are wrong. BMW will do whatever it wants to do if it sees profits.

Chances are that if they make another CSL, they will just revise their engine software, different exhaust, and possibly a few different engine internals. Then they will proceed to put less sound deadening in it and stiffen up the suspension. Likely some cool new wheels too. And then of course the price will go way up and people will buy it mostly for it's exclusivity. Simple as that.

Mercedes an AMG does the same thing, they just make one of their cars more exciting and mark up the price.

This is just my take on it, but the thing is, those companies could do whatever they want. There isn't really any definite path that they are going to take.

But I do have to say, there a lot of people that act like they are friends with the high up BMW CEOs and what not.
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Old 02-05-2008, 06:50 PM   #70
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Ehh, most of you are wrong. BMW will do whatever it wants to do if it sees profits.

Chances are that if they make another CSL, they will just revise their engine software, different exhaust, and possibly a few different engine internals. Then they will proceed to put less sound deadening in it and stiffen up the suspension. Likely some cool new wheels too. And then of course the price will go way up and people will buy it mostly for it's exclusivity. Simple as that.

Mercedes an AMG does the same thing, they just make one of their cars more exciting and mark up the price.

This is just my take on it, but the thing is, those companies could do whatever they want. There isn't really any definite path that they are going to take.

But I do have to say, there a lot of people that act like they are friends with the high up BMW CEOs and what not.
Very well put..
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Old 02-05-2008, 07:09 PM   #71
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get your own material corky...I'm the one making fun of you for your inability to comprehend.

So M cars don't need more power? looks like you've tripped yourself up on this one slowhead...durrr you're about as smart as Stimpy from "the Ren and Stimpy Show." If M cars didn't need more power, bmw and their supernatural M division wouldn't continue to increase the power outputs of each upgraded generation, oh wait, they are players in this HP war too, oh no!! and 500 bhp? no that's not very much...bahaha, Obviously M engineers feel they need more power. What are you going to do when the next M3 has upwards of 500-600 hp? oooh nooooo too much power!!! no that won't ever happen, because M's don't need more power... Go buy a go-kart super mario.
I'm going to just ignore your personal insults... kids in elementary school sound more intelligent when they are trying to insult someone... insulting back and forth is not something I want to get into


I'm really not making fun of you... I truly do feel sorry for you...

More power isnt a bad thing... as longs as its not the only factor that you change on the car...

Even if a car has a lot of power, I still expect it to be leightweight, well balanced, and dynamic...

ultimately, power means nothing if it isnt packaged properly...

i hope you finally see my point... if not, have someone else explain it to you... I dont feel like having to stoop down to your level...
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Old 02-05-2008, 07:26 PM   #72
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If I could have the final word here...

someone posted an article before on the philosophy of the M division... and in this document they explicitly state their requirement of having their engines be high-revving.

Redlines:
----------
E92 M3: 8400 rpm
M5 and M6: 8250
E46 M3: 8000
E39 M5: 7000

I did a quick search of AMG engines.. they mostly have 6000 rpm redlines except for the latest C63 which has a 7200 redline. Not bad.

Anyway in conclusion, if either division can create a high-revving and torque monster engine, why not? However there aren't many engines like this.

AMG ops for the lower strung torquier engines, and M chooses to go with higher-revving engines.
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Old 02-05-2008, 07:29 PM   #73
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If I could have the final word here...

someone posted an article before on the philosophy of the M division... and in this document they explicitly state their requirement of having their engines be high-revving.

Redlines:
----------
E92 M3: 8400 rpm
M5 and M6: 8250
E46 M3: 8000
E39 M5: 7000

I did a quick search of AMG engines.. they mostly have 6000 rpm redlines except for the latest C63 which has a 7200 redline. Not bad.

Anyway in conclusion, if either division can create a high-revving and torque monster engine, why not? However there aren't many engines like this.

AMG ops for the lower strung torquier engines, and M chooses to go with higher-revving engines.
which explains why one wouldnt work with the other...

thanks man
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Old 02-05-2008, 07:34 PM   #74
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I'm going to just ignore your personal insults... kids in elementary school sound more intelligent when they are trying to insult someone... insulting back and forth is not something I want to get into


I'm really not making fun of you... I truly do feel sorry for you...

More power isnt a bad thing... as longs as its not the only factor that you change on the car...

Even if a car has a lot of power, I still expect it to be leightweight, well balanced, and dynamic...

ultimately, power means nothing if it isnt packaged properly...

i hope you finally see my point... if not, have someone else explain it to you... I dont feel like having to stoop down to your level...
All insults aside...I have understood what you've been attempting to explain since your first redundant post...seriously, this is getting rediculous...blah blah blah blah blah...you have impressed me with your ability to repeat yourself in so many different ways, but unfortunately, I've stated what took you 10,000 words to explain, in only two sentences. I'll say it for the 50th time...

Originally Posted by:jolly944
You're right HP numbers of themselves are just a piece of the performance puzzle. But, don't be naive, it's a very important part of the puzzle


Read that quote over and over again pal, hopefully then you will see that you've been trying to say the same thing, AFTER I ALREADY STATED IT. I agree, power isn't going to benefit the car so much unless the entire car has been engineered to balance that power and keep it's overall dynamic ability to control itself. I've never stated anything opposing that. I've simply stated, and will continue to say it until you learn to read, that, BMW's M cars would only benefit from an increase in torque and power...because if the M engineers are as godly as you make them sound, they would be more than capable of adapting the rest of the car's excellent driving dynamics to such attractive power outputs, while retaining that beautiful high revving characteristic...obviously they feel the return on such a costly improvement is not great enough. You act like it's the law of physics, that you have to have one or the other, when that is false. Like I said look at the cars I listed, but you seem to conveniently skip and ignore those...GT2/997TT/599GTB/MurcLP640/Veyron...etc, all of which are high revving, high torque outputs in conjunction with their HP outputs, while retaining near perfect structural balance and performance. It's just that M can't afford to do as such to their cars, nor is that their role or intended role, as you have been saying, and as I totally agree.

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Old 02-05-2008, 07:36 PM   #75
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Winning an argument on an online forum is like winning the Special Olympics. In the end you're still retarded. Can we get back on topic now kids?
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Old 02-05-2008, 07:41 PM   #76
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^^lol, point taken, I am done.
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Old 02-05-2008, 07:53 PM   #77
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I'm very much aware of the fact that sales ultimately dictate production...

I just wish the ///M division would take a step back and look at what they originally intended...
and then they might rethink bringing the CSL to the U.S. at all... and we are back to where we started - no U.S. bound CSL
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Old 02-05-2008, 11:33 PM   #78
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Here's my $0.02...I know I should stay out of this, but whatever.

Jolly, you're missing the point. No one is saying more HP/torque is bad; no one is saying less HP/torque is better. All racing.ray and 330 are saying is that the M3 doesnt NEED more horsepower/torque to make it "nicer" like you said it would be. Basically, they are incinuating that you are not smarter than the M division. With their vast amounts of knowledge, BMW's M division decided the M3 didnt need more horsepower or torque (and people, perhaps people like yourself, were pissed when the figures first came out. I remember people on e90post saying BMW screwed themselves with the new M3 because the HP/Torque figures were "too low"). Now, if any of the comparisons between the C63 AMG and the M mean anything, then M division was right... and consequently, you are wrong; The M3 doesnt need more horsepower/torque to be "nicer".

Furthermore, taking into consideration comments about M only making cars that sell, and your comment about "[being] delusional if you say you wouldn't want an M3 with a of a lot more torque," and assuming the vast majority of people are not delusional, why didnt BMW give the M, more torque? Theoretically, they would sell more car, right?

PS. Aftermarket is a different ball game

PSS - "nicer" = "more understandable that you pray to the M division every night"

Quote:
Originally Posted by jolly944 View Post
I'm saying that if M3's/M5's/M6's had the torque that AMG's produce, then it would be a bit more understandable that you pray to the M division every night. You're delusional if you say you wouldn't want an M3 with a hell of a lot more torque.
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Old 02-06-2008, 02:47 AM   #79
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If I could have the final word here...

someone posted an article before on the philosophy of the M division... and in this document they explicitly state their requirement of having their engines be high-revving.

Redlines:
----------
E92 M3: 8400 rpm
M5 and M6: 8250
E46 M3: 8000
E39 M5: 7000

I did a quick search of AMG engines.. they mostly have 6000 rpm redlines except for the latest C63 which has a 7200 redline. Not bad.

Anyway in conclusion, if either division can create a high-revving and torque monster engine, why not? However there aren't many engines like this.

AMG ops for the lower strung torquier engines, and M chooses to go with higher-revving engines.
i thought mclaren designed that LOW REVING torgue monster engine. can easily be moded for 550hp+
http://www.rsportscars.com/eng/artic...g63_engine.asp
btw, for similar money,clk black has been beating m6 in reviews. i think amg is really getting more serious about performance.
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Old 02-06-2008, 06:09 AM   #80
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Here's my $0.02...I know I should stay out of this, but whatever.

Jolly, you're missing the point. No one is saying more HP/torque is bad; no one is saying less HP/torque is better. All racing.ray and 330 are saying is that the M3 doesnt NEED more horsepower/torque to make it "nicer" like you said it would be. Basically, they are incinuating that you are not smarter than the M division. With their vast amounts of knowledge, BMW's M division decided the M3 didnt need more horsepower or torque (and people, perhaps people like yourself, were pissed when the figures first came out. I remember people on e90post saying BMW screwed themselves with the new M3 because the HP/Torque figures were "too low"). Now, if any of the comparisons between the C63 AMG and the M mean anything, then M division was right... and consequently, you are wrong; The M3 doesnt need more horsepower/torque to be "nicer".

Furthermore, taking into consideration comments about M only making cars that sell, and your comment about "[being] delusional if you say you wouldn't want an M3 with a of a lot more torque," and assuming the vast majority of people are not delusional, why didnt BMW give the M, more torque? Theoretically, they would sell more car, right?

PS. Aftermarket is a different ball game

PSS - "nicer" = "more understandable that you pray to the M division every night"
Thank you for finally summing up what this fiasco is all about. I hope that ends the power discussion for good

Quote:
Originally Posted by DC83 View Post
i thought mclaren designed that LOW REVING torgue monster engine. can easily be moded for 550hp+
http://www.rsportscars.com/eng/artic...g63_engine.asp
btw, for similar money,clk black has been beating m6 in reviews. i think amg is really getting more serious about performance.
Seeing it the other way, 510bhp out of 6.2L isn't very much. Sure it's a lot, and they say it's the most powerful NA V8, but 1.2L more, and just 90bhp increase to the ///M S65? Good deal, but IMO everyone can make a big block to create masses of torque, but as stated before, that's not all that counts.

The sound from 6.2L revving is sweet though
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