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Old 07-07-2008, 11:29 PM   #1
elite53
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Brake pad question??

I am doing my first track day on friday. Right now I have Axxis Delux Plus pads on my car which are a ceramic pad designed for extremely low dust and I'm worried that they may not perform well at the track. The last thing I want is to be plagued by brake fade all day when I should be having fun. I was thinking of picking up some Hawk HP Plus pads before the event.

Do you guys think this would be worthwhile or are the pads I have going to work just fine? Thanks guys...

Last edited by elite53; 07-07-2008 at 11:32 PM.
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Old 07-07-2008, 11:45 PM   #2
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putting pads aside, i hear having SSBLs help a fair bit in terms of fighting brake fade.
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Old 07-08-2008, 12:03 AM   #3
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I think that would help with brake feel more than brake fade but I will be doing that in the future when I have more time. Right now I'm more concerned with using a pad that was primarily designed for low dust not being able to handle the higher temps that driving on a track would subject them to. Thanks for the reply though.
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Old 07-08-2008, 12:06 AM   #4
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If people think the pads I have now will work ok then I will use them and save the $200 bucks it would cost for some descent track pads till next time.
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Old 07-08-2008, 09:17 PM   #5
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I ran my first DE (at Road Atlanta) on my stock pads and they were acceptable, but I did get a little fade once I got up to a reasonable speed. Since then I have swapped out the stock front pads for Hawk HP+. I've left the rear pads stock since they don't take as much heat or punishment (That may change soon...)
If you're running low-dust pads, I'd be a bit concerned about both the initial bite and possible fade. Although, if this is your first track experience and it is only one day, I doubt that you'll be over-driving the pads. If it were two days, you might get up to speed on the 2nd day. It also depends somewhat on the track.. some are more demanding of brakes/pads than others.
Worst case, if you want to do something, I'd only swap the front brakes.
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Old 07-08-2008, 11:31 PM   #6
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Thank you so much for the reply. That is exactly what I wanted to know. I actually ordered the Hawk HP+ pads last night so they would get here in time. Based on what you said, I think it was the right decision. The pads I have now performed pretty poorly at the Car Control Clinic last month and will probably be even worse on the track?

How did your rotors hold up with the Hawk pads? I'll probably only do one more track day this year in september. My rotors are pretty fresh right now. It would suck to have to replace the rotors after only a couple days at the track.
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Old 07-09-2008, 08:45 AM   #7
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If you're using OE rotors you should be fine. Those Hawk's aren't really bad on rotors to begin with.
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Old 07-09-2008, 10:50 AM   #8
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good info, what are other good pads for occasional tracking and streets. hey are EBC's good, like red stuff, green stuff. or purple stuff. tnx guys.
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Old 07-09-2008, 01:39 PM   #9
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The instructor that will be riding with me sent me an email lastnight to say Hi and answer any questions I might have before the track event which I thought was pretty cool.

Anyway, we discussed the brakes a little and he said that he has never had any problem with using the stock pads on this particular track. The Hawk pads may actually be a little bit overkill for my first track day but he also agreed that the Axxis pads that are on the car now probably won't be very happy on the track so he recommended I use the Hawks instead since I already ordered them.

On a side note....At my Car Control Clinic, which was required before getting on the track, I went on a bunch of ride-alongs out on the track with the instuctors. I rode in all kinds of cars, some very fast (911 Turbo) and some kind of slow (318i). Fast is good but what most impressed me were the cars that could stop quickly. It was unbelievable how these cars could shed speed at the end of the straights. I think that is what I would like to emulate with my car and surprisingly most of the cars were on stock rotors with aggressive pads, not couple thousand dollar Big Brake Kits.

Thank you everyone for your responses...I have so much to learn.
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Old 07-09-2008, 08:45 PM   #10
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What track wil you be driving at??
I'd guess that if you had the standard/OEM pads, you'd be fine for the first couple of track days, but it sounds like the HP+ pads would be a good move from the Axxis pads.
I have not seen any additional or unusual rotor wear when using the HP+ pads. I suspect that heavy track use over a short time may not be as "wearing" as more occasional street use because there is no time for any rust or corrosion to form between uses.
Our stock brakes (pads/rotors) can actually provide amazing stopping power. As long as you don't get to the point of brake fade, the brakes can almost always overpower the tires. Unless you run sticky R-compound tires the brakes will not be the "weak link" in your brakeing system. In our cars, the "Big Brake" kits are more for "show", than for "go".. well, for stopping. Unless you are running in some form of serious competition, the standard calipers/rotors, with good pads, are all you will need.
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Old 07-09-2008, 08:51 PM   #11
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Well, there is one more thing you will need, although probably not at your first track day. You'll want to upgrade your brake fluid to make sure it does not boil. ATE Super Blue is commonly used by people who do occasional track days but also drive mostly on the street.
Stainless Steel Brake lines are a "nice to have". They may provide slightly better feel under heavy braking, but you'll have to have a number of track days behind you before you'd be able to feel the difference. You might consider going to the SSBLs the next time you do a complete brake fluid flush.
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Old 07-10-2008, 09:53 AM   #12
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Brakes only slow you down, remove them!!!!

On a serious note, to be safe, I would personally put in hi temp brake fluid and use the Hawk's the first few times. Eventually the hawk's may need to be upgraded to a better pad if your car is heavy, fast and/or you become fast with some rcomps.
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Old 07-10-2008, 10:30 AM   #13
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The track is Pacific Raceways in Kent, Washington. It's not nearly as fancy as the one in your picture but it is better than the street. lol

I'm going to run my stock wheels and tires for this event. I don't want to burn through the 19" $300 dollar a piece tires I usually have on the car but I am sort of curious how much difference there is between the stock 17" Michelins and the 19" Toyo T1R's. Maybe next time I will take them both and see.

I'll take your advise and switch to a better brake fluid after this event. The only bad part about it is I can't find it locally.

This is a BMWCCA event and they won't allow us to turn off the traction control. I know it will probably save my butt if I screw up but it is so damn intrusive. Especially since I installed the Twinscrew. Do you guys drive with yours on at the track?
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Old 07-10-2008, 01:33 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by elite53 View Post
The track is Pacific Raceways in Kent, Washington. It's not nearly as fancy as the one in your picture but it is better than the street. lol

I'm going to run my stock wheels and tires for this event. I don't want to burn through the 19" $300 dollar a piece tires I usually have on the car but I am sort of curious how much difference there is between the stock 17" Michelins and the 19" Toyo T1R's. Maybe next time I will take them both and see.

I'll take your advise and switch to a better brake fluid after this event. The only bad part about it is I can't find it locally.

This is a BMWCCA event and they won't allow us to turn off the traction control. I know it will probably save my butt if I screw up but it is so damn intrusive. Especially since I installed the Twinscrew. Do you guys drive with yours on at the track?
Motul 600 is popular and sold at many motorcyle shops. Cheapest brake fix too.
I'm pretty sure they allow you to turn off traction control once you move up in the run groups but it's a safety item for most.
I started turning it off after about my 3rd event, except for rainy days.
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Old 07-10-2008, 03:58 PM   #15
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Cool, I live about a block away from Rainier Honda. I'll have to stop in and see if they have some.
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Old 08-29-2008, 08:44 PM   #16
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I alternate between ATE Super Blue and ATE Type 200 brake fluid, which I get from Bimmerworld. (But most race shops sell it and it's very easy and cheap to get via mail order). Same formula, different colors. Makes it easy to tell when the old fluid is out of the line when you do a complete flush. I've personally never experienced a mushy pedal from boiled fluid so have never desired to stray from these two ATE fluids, but I have experienced warped/bent backing plates on brake pads and new pad fade when I did not bed a set of new pads thoroughly enough. I personally only use Hawk pads - ceramics in winter, HP+ in summer, and HT-10s and DTC-60s for track.
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Old 09-04-2008, 01:03 AM   #17
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Brake Pads: Use Pagid Yellow or Porterfield R4-S pads. They are both considered an "endurance pad" (especially Pagid), and it is a "for real" track pad. Do not be penny foolish by skimping on the one thing that stops/slows your car in high speed driving activities. Try going to Brainerd Int'l (MN)or Road America (WI) where you can reach speeds of 130+ in a powerful car like a M3 on the main straight, and ask your car to do that for 30 minutes in your run-group where you ask your brakes to do double duty and you'll thank yourself for not skimping. As for brake fluid, "yes" to Motul 600/650, Castrol SRF, and AP. Go with second tier hardware, be prepared for a middle pedal that WILL sink to the floor. Be careful, and drive it home afterwards, while telling everyone you had a safe time, instead of....
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Old 09-04-2008, 04:39 AM   #18
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Thank goodness you bought new pads. I have Axxis Deluxe and while I knew I wouldn't track this car with those pads, I am totally unhappy with them. Horrible bite and they fade VERY fast.

If you went to a track, you would find this out very quick and it would not be fun for you. Just like others have said, get the brake fluid changed out. Its cheap, and a good move.

Also, I read you want to take your stock wheels/rubber to the track... Specifically, what kind of Michilens are your 17's wrapped in. While its not the best to track with 19 inch wheels, tires do make a difference and I would consider running 19's just because you have them wrapped in good rubber. You arent going to totally toast a set of tires with one track day.
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Old 09-04-2008, 08:47 AM   #19
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I was very happy with the performance of the Hawk HP+ pads that I used. It's almost unbelievable how well they worked. Turn two on this track is entered at around 140 and you brake hard down to about 60 and the car did it all day without even a hint of brake fade. The tires were definately the weak link. After about 6 laps they would start feeling really greasy. I think they were getting over heated. I'm going to use my 19's next time like you suggested. Hopefully they will hold up better than the stock rubber did cause those tires look like they were destroyed and they have a wiered purple color on the tread. My instructor said it was from the oil in the rubber boiling to the surface of the tire. I've never heard that one before but whatever...

I've definately started down a slippery slope. I'm hooked!! This is too much fun!!
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Old 09-04-2008, 05:00 PM   #20
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I liked the HP+ while I was using them on track, but I didn't get more than two weekends out of a set which is I why I eventually moved to their other offerings. Glad they worked well for you!
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