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Old 04-05-2009, 11:31 PM   #101
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There is water in the engine.
Analysis after analysis, there is no water in the oil.



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Read again. Electrolytes are NOT necessary for electrolysis to happen. They are required to collect the byproducts.
Inefficient electrolysis in the engine, even if it occurs, cannot account for the complete lack of water in the engine oil. Basically electrolysis is irrelevant.
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Old 04-05-2009, 11:33 PM   #102
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Not true, an electrolyte is needed for electrical current to pass through. Usually liquids or gels are used, but even a gas like oxygen can be used as an electrolyte. But if there is no electrolyte, like if there was a vacuum, electrolysis can't happen. The three necessary items for electrolysis are a cathode (positively charged), and anode (negatively charged), and an electrolyte for ions to pass through.
Yes, that is making sense.
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Old 04-05-2009, 11:38 PM   #103
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Correct! No way to avoid it.


Also true! And did you know there is more nitrogen in the air we breath than either O2 or water?



Not true, an electrolyte is needed for electrical current to pass through. Usually liquids or gels are used, but even a gas like oxygen can be used as an electrolyte. But if there is no electrolyte, like if there was a vacuum, electrolysis can't happen. The three necessary items for electrolysis are a cathode (positively charged), and anode (negatively charged), and an electrolyte for ions to pass through.

Did I know there was more N2 in the air than O2? Umm I actually did, but you sound like you just found out about it.

Who is trying to pass a current inside the engine? Electrolysis, by definition, is the process where one decomposes a compound into its elements. In the case of water, it also occurs naturally (albeit very slow, can only be detected using very sensitive equipment, the probability of this natural process can be determined by using quantum mechanics).

In a primary school lab, you simply apply a voltage and use electrolytes for the current to pass, and you collect the byproducts and show them to your students. But that's primary school.

In the real world, such as the inside of an engine, apply 50k volts to water and see what happens
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Old 04-05-2009, 11:40 PM   #104
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It comes from the "Nerst equation" which determines the "reduction potential" of a reaction. Under normal conditions, that is 25 degree Celsius and 1 atm of pressure, water is not likely to decompose into H2 and O2. So under these conditions, you need what is called a "standard potential" of 1.23 Volts for the electrolysis of water.

I hope it makes sense now, but let me know if it doesn't.
Ok, so I looked that up it's not as simple as that equation you gave me, and there is a minimum voltage, and it is at ~1.23 volts.

But now I'm just wondering, how the hell did we get talking about electrolysis? lol

There is no electrolysis that happens in a car other than in the battery.
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Old 04-05-2009, 11:41 PM   #105
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In the real world, such as the inside of an engine, apply 50k volts to water and see what happens
In the real world, there is no meaningful water in the combustion chamber. Electrolysis remains irrelevant.
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Old 04-05-2009, 11:45 PM   #106
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Analysis after analysis, there is no water in the oil.

Inefficient electrolysis in the engine, even if it occurs, cannot account for the complete lack of water in the engine oil. Basically electrolysis is irrelevant.
Let me ask you this. Is there "air" inside the engine?

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Yes, that is making sense.


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Ok, so I looked that up it's not as simple as that equation you gave me, and there is a minimum voltage, and it is at ~1.23 volts.

But now I'm just wondering, how the hell did we get talking about electrolysis? lol

There is no electrolysis that happens in a car other than in the battery.
Read my previous post, where I clarified what is meant by electrolysis as it is understood in the scientific community (not just primary schools lol). It is unavoidable inside the engine where you have moisture and such high voltages being generated by the sparks.
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Old 04-05-2009, 11:46 PM   #107
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In the real world, there is no meaningful water in the combustion chamber. Electrolysis remains irrelevant.
Oh, ok. Now it is "meaningful water". I bet it still has the same chemical formula as the good old water
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Old 04-05-2009, 11:48 PM   #108
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Did I know there was more N2 in the air than O2? Umm I actually did, but you sound like you just found out about it.

Who is trying to pass a current inside the engine? Electrolysis, by definition, is the process where one decomposes a compound into its elements. In the case of water, it also occurs naturally (albeit very slow, can only be detected using very sensitive equipment, the probability of this natural process can be determined by using quantum mechanics).

In a primary school lab, you simply apply a voltage and use electrolytes for the current to pass, and you collect the byproducts and show them to your students. But that's primary school.

In the real world, such as the inside of an engine, apply 50k volts to water and see what happens
Nah, I knew about nitrogen in the air for a while. Other than in chem class, you have to know about it to get a scuba diving certification.

And there is no point where 50,000 volts is going through the engine. Most of that voltage from the spark plugs is lost jumping that gap to the ground of the park plug. And from there the charge just dissipates into the block and that's the end of that.
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Old 04-05-2009, 11:50 PM   #109
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Oh, ok. Now it is "meaningful water". I bet it still has the same chemical formula as the good old water
Until you show evidence of measurable water in the combustion chamber, there is none. In science, there is this thing about not being able to prove the negative. So the burden is on you. As I pointed out already, electrolysis is irrelevant to the discussion.
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Old 04-05-2009, 11:53 PM   #110
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Excuse me, GoingNuts and cngzsn, what are subject we are trying to prove again? I kinda lost track with all this electrolysis stuff.
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Old 04-05-2009, 11:54 PM   #111
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Nah, I knew about nitrogen in the air for a while. Other than in chem class, you have to know about it to get a scuba diving certification.
Good, 'cause you have to know a heck of a lot more than that to get a Ph.D. in physics

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And there isn't 50,000 volts going through any part of the engine. And there is no point where 50,000 volts is going through the engine. Most of that voltage from the spark plugs is lost jumping that gap to the ground of the park plug. And from there the charge just dissipates into the block and that's the end of that.
I am not saying all the 50k is used for electrolysis, but that's not what is required anyways. You have high voltages, you have moisture, and you have your elements, in the form of N2 and O2, and possibly some others as well. And I am not saying there is a lot of O2, but there is enough to cause oxidation over long times, depending on your driving habits and climate where you live.

I bet you can even find sugar (C12H22O11) if you look careful enough.
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Old 04-05-2009, 11:56 PM   #112
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Until you show evidence of measurable water in the combustion chamber, there is none. In science, there is this thing about not being able to prove the negative. So the burden is on you. As I pointed out already, electrolysis is irrelevant to the discussion.
Lol, I am not going to argue any more science with you man. You need to find more about it yourself.

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Excuse me, GoingNuts and cngzsn, what are subject we are trying to prove again? I kinda lost track with all this electrolysis stuff.
And you need to go back and read the full thread.

G'night guys.
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Old 04-05-2009, 11:57 PM   #113
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Good, 'cause you have to know a heck of a lot more than that to get a Ph.D. in physics



I am not saying all the 50k is used for electrolysis, but that's not what is required anyways. You have high voltages, you have moisture, and you have your elements, in the form of N2 and O2, and possibly some others as well. And I am not saying there is a lot of O2, but there is enough to cause oxidation over long times, depending on your driving habits and climate where you live.

I bet you can even find sugar (C12H22O11) if you look careful enough.
But what's bad about oxidation? It takes a good amount of time and/or heat to oxidize oil.
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Old 04-05-2009, 11:57 PM   #114
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Excuse me, GoingNuts and cngzsn, what are subject we are trying to prove again? I kinda lost track with all this electrolysis stuff.
cngzsn was just trying to show he knows electrolysis. But it's completely irrelevant to the discussion.
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Old 04-06-2009, 12:00 AM   #115
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But what's bad about oxidation? It takes a good amount of time and/or heat to oxidize oil.
BMW only approve oils that have good oxidation stability. As long as you go by BMW's oil renew recommendation, oil oxidation does not cause a problem.
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Old 04-06-2009, 12:05 AM   #116
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BMW only approve oils that have good oxidation stability. As long as you go by BMW's oil renew recommendation, oil oxidation does not cause a problem.
I know, that's what I was thinking. In all those Blackstone Lab test results, it looked like the only reason for changing oil was for the TBN and removing the stuff that the oil filter couldn't take out.
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Old 04-06-2009, 12:12 AM   #117
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I know, that's what I was thinking. In all those Blackstone Lab test results, it looked like the only reason for changing oil was for the TBN and removing the stuff that the oil filter couldn't take out.
Well I can speculate further that another main reason to change oil has nothing to do with the oil at all. The other main reason is to get you to replace the filters. Rather than making the servicing extremely complicated and numerous, BMW simplified it by combining filter and oil renewal. If you know what you are doing, you can separate these services. Personally I believe the oil can last much longer than BMW say it can. So just having interim change of the filters should be adequate between oil changes. Hence I am gunning for 30k mile oil change.
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Old 04-06-2009, 12:21 AM   #118
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Well I can speculate further that another main reason to change oil has nothing to do with the oil at all. The other main reason is to get you to replace the filters. Rather than making the servicing extremely complicated and numerous, BMW simplified it by combining filter and oil renewal. If you know what you are doing, you can separate these services. Personally I believe the oil can last much longer than BMW say it can. So just having interim change of the filters should be adequate between oil changes. Hence I am gunning for 30k mile oil change.
That's pretty daring. Hopefully every 5k or 10k miles you will send in an oil sample to see what the TBN is.

I'm kinda curious if there is an maximum useable lifetime for the oil or filter though, cause I'm one of those types that would take 2-3 years to reach 15,000 miles.
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Old 04-06-2009, 12:40 AM   #119
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That's pretty daring. Hopefully every 5k or 10k miles you will send in an oil sample to see what the TBN is.

I'm kinda curious if there is an maximum useable lifetime for the oil or filter though, cause I'm one of those types that would take 2-3 years to reach 15,000 miles.
I am not going to waste my money with oil analysis. I just want to keep the cost as low as possible. If you read one of my earlier posts containing a link to Castrol, you will find they are spec'ing their oil as good for 30k miles. That in itself says something. Another deduction you can apply is the oils in the sealed systems like the tranny and differential. The only real reason for their long service life is less to do with the oil and more to do with lack of contaminants. So if you are able to keep contaminants out of the engine, I can see absolutely no reason why engine oil life cannot be extended in the same was as the other oils.

I too do low mileage. So I am not sure I can make the 30k mile oil change, because it would take something like 6 years, haha. But my thinking was, as long as the engine sounds happy, perhaps the oil would remain useable. One thing is for sure, even though I bang on about BMW's service recommendation, I will still throw it out the window by extending the life of my oil. Although I will replace filters at closer to the recommended intervals.

The only serious contaminant for the engine oil is the fuel. But I believe people over look an important fact: fuel evaporates very easily. So the fuel contamination in the oil may never build up to a dangerous or detrimental level.

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Old 04-06-2009, 01:34 AM   #120
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Since you ignored my posts regarding transmission oil test results, I will do them for you.








So if you think because it's a "closed system" and you won't need to ever replace your transmission oil, take a good look at the analysis above. And how do you explain water in a "closed system" such as a transmission? Honestly, please don't speculate or guesstimate and try to explain to us as if you know more than you think.

Also, here's an R32 transmission test result. A "closed system" with contaminants.



BTW I just read your wood ramp thread and it's obvious to people with common sense that it's very dangerous. Be careful with that thing if you decide to continue to use it.
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