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Suspension & Braking Forum by BimmerWorld
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Old 11-04-2008, 10:52 AM   #41
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No...hotchkis are a bit thicker.
Being hollow they have to have a larger diameter in order to provide performance comparable to a solid bar of smaller diameter.

There's no reason for anyone to be concerned about the Hotchkis bars being hollow. They are in no way inferior to anything else on the market but the design also doesn't really offer any great advantages. I went with H&R because of their unique bushings which are maintenance and squeak free as well as the fact that I didn't need adjustable end links. I also had the Turner sway bar mount reinforcement installed when my subframe mounts were reinforced.
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Old 11-04-2008, 10:52 AM   #42
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Old 11-04-2008, 10:59 AM   #43
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I also assume the post about ZHP bars weighing 17 lbs is just for the bars themselves with no endlinks, brackets, bushings, etc.
That weight included the just bars and the 4 bushings - no endlinks or brackets.
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Old 11-04-2008, 11:05 AM   #44
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No...hotchkis are a bit thicker.
i think this is to make up for its hollow construction. decission decissions.
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Old 11-04-2008, 11:07 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by TxZHP04 View Post
Being hollow they have to have a larger diameter in order to provide performance comparable to a solid bar of smaller diameter.

There's no reason for anyone to be concerned about the Hotchkis bars being hollow. They are in no way inferior to anything else on the market but the design also doesn't really offer any great advantages. I went with H&R because of their unique bushings which are maintenance and squeak free as well as the fact that I didn't need adjustable end links. I also had the Turner sway bar mount reinforcement installed when my subframe mounts were reinforced.
yup, so why is it that H&R doesnt need adjustable end link?? also can you adjust the bar from soft to stiff for example.
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Old 11-04-2008, 11:10 AM   #46
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yup, so why is it that H&R doesnt need adjustable end link?? also can you adjust the bar from soft to stiff for example.
because it uses factory links. Yes, you can adjust the bar from soft to stiff in 3 different levels for the rear, and 2 for the front.
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Old 11-04-2008, 11:21 AM   #47
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because it uses factory links. Yes, you can adjust the bar from soft to stiff in 3 different levels for the rear, and 2 for the front.
so i guess H&R is better
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Old 11-04-2008, 11:26 AM   #48
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yup, so why is it that H&R doesnt need adjustable end link?? also can you adjust the bar from soft to stiff for example.
None of the aftermarket bars require adjustable end links because the need for adjustability has nothing to do with the bar itself.

Most people around here seem to like to slam their car which can lead to needing shorter end links, especially in the rear to prevent interference issues. This is also why many manufacturers include adjustable end links with their bars. Adjustable end links also allow track junkies to fine tune the preloading of the bar.

I didn't need adjustable end links because I initially used the bars with my stock suspension. Now that I have coilovers, I still use the stock end links.
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Old 11-04-2008, 11:26 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by n2Bimmer View Post
so i guess H&R is better
Based on what?

You could use OEM end links with the Hotchkis bars if you wanted.
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Old 11-04-2008, 11:31 AM   #50
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i dont know, it just seems like H&R's name brand has been around, So from what i understand H&R doesnt supply end links right.
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Old 11-04-2008, 11:58 AM   #51
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So from what i understand H&R doesnt supply end links right.
Correct but they can be purchased elsewhere if they are needed.
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Old 11-04-2008, 02:28 PM   #52
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There's no reason for anyone to be concerned about the Hotchkis bars being hollow. They are in no way inferior to anything else on the market but the design also doesn't really offer any great advantages.
I think there are several advantages to their design. Greaseable zerk fitted endlinks and mounts. Reinforced mounting brackets. But as you say, the H&R bushing are a noise-free material.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TxZHP04 View Post
None of the aftermarket bars require adjustable end links because the need for adjustability has nothing to do with the bar itself.
Most people around here seem to like to slam their car which can lead to needing shorter end links, especially in the rear to prevent interference issues. This is also why many manufacturers include adjustable end links with their bars. Adjustable end links also allow track junkies to fine tune the preloading of the bar.
I didn't need adjustable end links because I initially used the bars with my stock suspension. Now that I have coilovers, I still use the stock end links.
H&R is a German TUV approved bar. Meaning it has to use the stock endlinks and it can't break the endlinks or need modification to the mounting spots. This is why german swaybars are almost always smaller than a usa made bar. I'm not sure if one could even use the stock endlinks on a bar like UUC or H-Sport because of the shape/design. And as we know the stock endlinks are well known to break from their small size even on stock bars.


With the H&R you would be more likely to get a bar that would cause No issues as it's based on stock geometry/fitment. For street use that is an overall better theory. But for those who like a bit more there are the bigger bars...which also bring sometimes issues.
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Old 11-04-2008, 03:07 PM   #53
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I think there are several advantages to their design. Greaseable zerk fitted endlinks and mounts. Reinforced mounting brackets. But as you say, the H&R bushing are a noise-free material.
Grease fittings, hmmm... sounds like maintenance to me. I'd consider that a negative unless you really need length adjustability. There are also other ways to reinforce the mounting brackets, so I wouldn't necessarily choose a bar just because this feature is included.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex323Ci View Post
H&R is a German TUV approved bar. Meaning it has to use the stock endlinks and it can't break the endlinks or need modification to the mounting spots. This is why german swaybars are almost always smaller than a usa made bar. I'm not sure if one could even use the stock endlinks on a bar like UUC or H-Sport because of the shape/design. And as we know the stock endlinks are well known to break from their small size even on stock bars.
There's a lot of speculation and guessing going on here.

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Originally Posted by Alex323Ci View Post
But for those who like a bit more there are the bigger bars...which also bring sometimes issues.
Which bigger bars are you referring to? Are you suggesting that the Hotchkis bars are stiffer (or otherwise better) because they have a larger diameter? Remember they are hollow so you can't compare stiffness with a solid bar by simply comparing outer diameters - a hollow bar will be weaker than a solid bar of the same outer diameter. I have yet to actually see any measured data comparing the various brand bars.
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Old 11-04-2008, 03:11 PM   #54
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Old 11-04-2008, 03:15 PM   #55
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BTW, I have nothing against the Hotchkis bars - I think they're a great product. I also think it's a virtual wash as to which product is better. I'm just pointing out that people need to really consider their needs before choosing one bar over the other.
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Old 11-04-2008, 03:19 PM   #56
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I agree, but Alex's post didn't make sense to me either. Hence the popcorn.
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Old 11-04-2008, 03:43 PM   #57
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Between H&R and Hotchkis - you are looking at two different types of designs.

H&R is a solid design - its whats been used over and over - its obviously a thicker bar then your stock to help out the performance.

Hotchkis has a different philosphy - increase the thickness but use a hallow design to keep the weight down as well as maintain flex.

Both have been proven to work - Turner used the H&R on their E46, Hotchkis is widely used on the auto cross - their 335 this past February placed first with the BMW CCA. Between the two I personally pick the Hotchkis.

Anyway - to answer the questions the R&D and development is made here in the USA - Santa Fe, CA.

We recently picked up their line this summer, Mark Hotchkis, the owner (that's where the name comes from) really started to get big for his accomplishments with the Audi market many years ago and the company has been growing at a very rapid growth.

I got these on sale for you guys here on E46 - so here's a link check em out & let me know if you guys have any questions: http://www.modbargains.com/product.a...M3_SwayBars_MW

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Old 11-04-2008, 04:03 PM   #58
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Between the two I personally pick the Hotchkis.
Personal opinions are always welcome here but they're generally of more value if you also provide the reasons behind them.

Hypothetically speaking, you could have told us that you would personally pick the Turner bars. Now suppose you had secretly picked the Turner bars simply because they were blue. Are they better because they are blue? No, you just happened to like them better. Unfortunately the general forum population would now believe they are somehow a better design simply becuase Ron recommended them. If people don't understand the features and benefits/drawbacks of these features, they end up buying whatever gets recommended even if their needs are different from the person making the recommendation. In other words, we might not all want or need blue anti-roll bars.
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Old 11-04-2008, 04:21 PM   #59
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Grease fittings, hmmm... sounds like maintenance to me. I'd consider that a negative unless you really need length adjustability. There are also other ways to reinforce the mounting brackets, so I wouldn't necessarily choose a bar just because this feature is included.

There's a lot of speculation and guessing going on here.

Which bigger bars are you referring to? Are you suggesting that the Hotchkis bars are stiffer (or otherwise better) because they have a larger diameter? Remember they are hollow so you can't compare stiffness with a solid bar by simply comparing outer diameters - a hollow bar will be weaker than a solid bar of the same outer diameter. I have yet to actually see any measured data comparing the various brand bars.
Nah, some of the things I was just bringing up as points. Most of the other statements weren't directed at you. Just to the thread. Sorry if by quoting you it seemed I was directing all comments to you. I agree with most everythng you said.

As for bigger bars, I was only suggesting that the H&R aren't as big as something like the UUC bars which aren't European TUV. ST and UUC bars are just a few USA bars which are almost always bigger than their TUV approved counterparts. It's common knowledge their bars are smaller to pass testing. BIMMER and EC both had articles stating this. I'm not talking about the H-Sport in this case.

I'm not sure what the speculation and guessing is you are referring to. Bring up a certain question and I'll be happy to answer it if I have the answer..
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Old 11-04-2008, 04:27 PM   #60
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Personal opinions are always welcome here but they're generally of more value if you also provide the reasons behind them.
I thought it was pretty obvious

Personally I chose Turner sway bars, because they are H&R and blue
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