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Suspension & Braking
Have some questions about suspension or brake setups for your E46 BMW? Get all your answers here!

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Old 11-04-2008, 03:42 PM   #61
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So what are the diameters of the ST and UUC bars? The UUC non-M are solid, I'm assuming the ST are as well. (Of course, by simply comparing diamters we are ignoring any potential material differences.)
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Old 11-04-2008, 03:43 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by TxZHP04 View Post
I have yet to actually see any measured data comparing the various brand bars.
That's the primary reason I didn't start a "what sways shall I buy" thread. Everybody base their suggestion on personal experience. I did my searching (google + other forums) and Hotchkis seemed pretty good choice given their performance over STOCK, price, guaranteed fitting on the E46 (couldn't verify fitment of UUC for the 2.2) and the parts they include (reinforced brackets, endlinks etc). Installed, no squeaks, unbelieavably better handling over stock and no fear of breaking the mounting brackets again.

To be honest, the stock 2.2 bars are like made of cheese compared to these. I also can't see how a hollow bar will break under stress in the current environment (car). You would probably (guessing) break the endlinks or snap the mounting brackets bolts first long before the bar reaches its max stress limit. When I asked about the Hotchkis bars on other forums I was told that my problem would be my tires being too soft for such bars combined with hard cornering.
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Old 11-04-2008, 03:46 PM   #63
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When I asked about the Hotchkis bars on other forums I was told that my problem would be my tires being too soft for such bars combined with hard cornering.
You want the softest tires with upgraded sway bars for better grip What tires are you running now?
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Old 11-04-2008, 03:53 PM   #64
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So what are the diameters of the ST and UUC bars? The UUC non-M are solid, I'm assuming the ST are as well. (Of course, by simply comparing diamters we are ignoring any potential material differences.)
UUC doesn't list specs for the non-M sway bars.
Quote:
By selecting chrome moly as the material for our E46 M3 SwayBarbarian, we are also able to specify another important characteristics: tubular construction. By using a tubular material, the overall weight of the E46 M3 SwayBarbarian is reduced considerably compared to other aftermarket sway bars, as well as compared to even the stock bars.

UUC tubular SwayBarbarian measurements:

Front Outside Diameter (in): 1.25
Wall Thickness (in): 0.25

Rear Outside Diameter (in): 1
Wall Thickness (in): 0.218

On first inspection, this may be hard to compare to the traditional solid bar offerings from other manufacturers. UUC's tubular design requires that in order to make a comparison to the outside diameter (OD) of a solid bar, some calculations are required. The inside and outside diameter of the bar must be analyzed to determine how big a solid bar would have to be to provide the same stiffness. This requires taking the OD to the 4th power, subtracting the inner diameter (ID) to the 4th power, and taking the fourth root of the whole thing.

Here's the results:UUC tubular SwayBarbarian measurements:

Front Effective Diameter (in): 1.207 Effective Diameter (mm): 30.67

Rear Effective Diameter (in): 0.97 Effective Diameter (mm): 24.73

Complicated, yes. But it allows tubular bars to easily be compared to solid bars from competitors. And the dividends of the lighter-weight tubular bars make it worth going through some extra mathematical acrobatics:
So from what I understand, UUC makes the M3 sways hollow and recommends them as being more light. So if for the "flagship" M3 they make hollow ones, why not for the non-M? Or am I missing something
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Old 11-04-2008, 03:55 PM   #65
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Michelin PS2 (225/45/18 & 255/35/18)
I guess you're good
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Old 11-04-2008, 03:58 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by TxZHP04 View Post
So what are the diameters of the ST and UUC bars? The UUC non-M are solid, I'm assuming the ST are as well. (Of course, by simply comparing diamters we are ignoring any potential material differences.)
Oh, I thought eveyone knew this. It's also listed in the FAQ of the forum at the top.
Here is some more detailed info from..you guessed it, the suspension spec guru.. "jpr".
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...=swaybar+sizes
Yes, as far as I recall the Suspension Techniques bars are solid unless they changed things.
The rear bar is the one I'm referring to in my post about endlinks and how they fit. Also the amount/leverage of a bar is not dependant only on size, but the setting or length it's at aswell. Those of us with adjustable bars can attest to how much it can change from it's three settings.
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Old 11-04-2008, 04:15 PM   #67
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Besides, the difference between the H-sports and the H&R on the street are probably very minimal that non of us could possibly tell.

In my case I bought Hotchkis, well because I bought Hotchkis!
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Old 11-04-2008, 04:29 PM   #68
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Oh, I thought eveyone knew this. It's also listed in the FAQ of the forum at the top.
Here is some more detailed info from..you guessed it, the suspension spec guru.. "jpr".
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...=swaybar+sizes
Yes, as far as I recall the Suspension Techniques bars are solid unless they changed things.
The rear bar is the one I'm referring to in my post about endlinks and how they fit. Also the amount/leverage of a bar is not dependant only on size, but the setting or length it's at aswell. Those of us with adjustable bars can attest to how much it can change from it's three settings.
Completely agree about the moment arm/end link connection point variable.

Yeah, I was pretty sure about the UUC sizes but can't find anything about the ST. Is it in the thread you linked, maybe I missed it?

Now we're getting somewhere though. I was pretty sure the H&R front bar was larger than the UUC front bar. According to the UUC website, this is correct (although part of me wonders if the data on their site is accurate). But, it seems you are really only talking about the rear bars when you are talking about the German vs American made size difference.

Ok, I'll give you that the rear German made bars seem to be slightly smaller and I'll even take your word that this is related to TUV requirements as you're a very trustworthy member. But bigger isn't always better. It's been my personal experience that these cars benefit more from a stiffer front bar with just enough rear bar to balance it out hence my front bar is set to full stiff but the rear is not. Personally, I don't need any more rear bar than the H&R setup offers. If the H&R rear bar were any bigger, I would simply have to adjust it further to soft. With my current suspension setup, I'm even considering experimenting with softening up both the front and rear bars.

I personally believe that all the popular bars have enough adjustment range in them to set up most anyone's car to their liking. Given the number of other variables in sway bar design and people's varying suspension setups, I also think shopping for anti-roll bars by diameter comparison is futile.
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Old 11-04-2008, 05:03 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by TxZHP04 View Post
Completely agree about the moment arm/end link connection point variable.

Yeah, I was pretty sure about the UUC sizes but can't find anything about the ST. Is it in the thread you linked, maybe I missed it?

Now we're getting somewhere though. I was pretty sure the H&R front bar was larger than the UUC front bar. According to the UUC website, this is correct (although part of me wonders if the data on their site is accurate). But, it seems you are really only talking about the rear bars when you are talking about the German vs American made size difference.

Ok, I'll give you that the rear German made bars seem to be slightly smaller and I'll even take your word that this is related to TUV requirements as you're a very trustworthy member. But bigger isn't always better. It's been my personal experience that these cars benefit more from a stiffer front bar with just enough rear bar to balance it out hence my front bar is set to full stiff but the rear is not. Personally, I don't need any more rear bar than the H&R setup offers. If the H&R rear bar were any bigger, I would simply have to adjust it further to soft. With my current suspension setup, I'm even considering experimenting with softening up both the front and rear bars.

I personally believe that all the popular bars have enough adjustment range in them to set up most anyone's car to their liking. Given the number of other variables in sway bar design and people's varying suspension setups, I also think shopping for anti-roll bars by diameter comparison is futile.
Ya, I can't find much about the ST E46 bars. They were more a player in being a larger bar in the E30 M3 days of mine. But that rear bar would pull the mounting bracket from the car while the Eibach and H&Rs were fine.

I agree that a larger bar isn't always the best balance. Infact I think some of the bars just go this way to seem better to a novice as selling point. And by the thread and f/r ratio that jpr figured out it's not such a great thing unbalanced.

I'm also not saying anything bad about the H&R bars. Infact they are most likely a better choice for many over the UUC bar..which has it's issues. The H&R (and Eibach) are probably the least likely to need any maintenance.

As for getting a tuning set of swaybars with a lot more settings and re-engineering for a fanatic. I have always preferred the H-Sport compared to my UUCs. I've had sport hollow bars in the past and had nothing but good results from them. It's noticeable holding the bar how much less it can weigh.
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Old 11-04-2008, 05:22 PM   #70
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I'm also not saying anything bad about the H&R bars.
Didn't think you were, just figured we might explore the details of the various offerings so that those asking questions would gain a better understanding. A lot of people come in here asking about what product is "best" without really understanding their own needs or goals - they just want "something better." Hopefully some of our discussions will give them a better ability to make an informed decision.

Sorry if I've come across as being argumentative here.
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Old 11-05-2008, 12:37 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by TxZHP04 View Post
Didn't think you were, just figured we might explore the details of the various offerings so that those asking questions would gain a better understanding. A lot of people come in here asking about what product is "best" without really understanding their own needs or goals - they just want "something better." Hopefully some of our discussions will give them a better ability to make an informed decision.
I totally agree with your statements about helping others understand all the differences in both.
Many simplistic features of the H&R make it a better choice for some. When it comes to a overall improved design and function I think the H-Sport has gone the extra mile which makes it a cut above the others.
No problem not seeing this as argumentive. You've always been a good contributor of info and you like to get down to facts more than hear-say. Which is always welcomed.
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Old 11-05-2008, 12:53 PM   #72
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okay we need to get to the bottom of this, so which will provide better handling
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Old 11-05-2008, 01:08 PM   #73
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heads up n2bimmer cause i see a hollow anti-rollbar flying towards your head!!!
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Old 11-05-2008, 01:09 PM   #74
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okay we need to get to the bottom of this, so which will provide better handling
Why don't you buy both, try them out, and then sell the set you don't want? I still think you would be asking yourself these questions after testing them both out.
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Old 11-05-2008, 01:16 PM   #75
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okay we need to get to the bottom of this, so which will provide better handling
Bottom line is it doesn't matter. A suspension is not made up of anti-roll bars alone. Spings and dampers are the primary ingredients that define handling characteristics while the bars provide the final fine tuning of the car's balance. (edit: even though many of us here cheat and use bars to reduce body roll without the use of stiffer springs to keep things comfy on the street.)

In order to even begin to determine "better handling", you have to identify what your goals are. If spirited street driving is your thing, then it really truly doesn't matter from a performance perspective what bars you get. Any of the aftermarket bars are going to reduce body roll substantially over stock so you need to focus more on things like what level of maintenance is required, fitment/interference issues, cost, etc. If you are looking to autox, "better" has to be defined within the rules established for the class you would be competing in.

How do you use the car?
What are your other current or planned suspension mods?
Do you care if you have to periodically grease the components?
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Old 11-05-2008, 01:17 PM   #76
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heads up n2bimmer cause i see a hollow anti-rollbar flying towards your head!!!
I would actually recommend the heavier solid bars in this application.
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Old 11-05-2008, 01:34 PM   #77
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heads up n2bimmer cause i see a hollow anti-rollbar flying towards your head!!!
loll, hey by the way ,were going to angeles crest this saturday too, so come.
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Old 11-05-2008, 01:36 PM   #78
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Bottom line is it doesn't matter. A suspension is not made up of anti-roll bars alone. Spings and dampers are the primary ingredients that define handling characteristics while the bars provide the final fine tuning of the car's balance. (edit: even though many of us here cheat and use bars to reduce body roll without the use of stiffer springs to keep things comfy on the street.)

In order to even begin to determine "better handling", you have to identify what your goals are. If spirited street driving is your thing, then it really truly doesn't matter from a performance perspective what bars you get. Any of the aftermarket bars are going to reduce body roll substantially over stock so you need to focus more on things like what level of maintenance is required, fitment/interference issues, cost, etc. If you are looking to autox, "better" has to be defined within the rules established for the class you would be competing in.

How do you use the car?
What are your other current or planned suspension mods?
Do you care if you have to periodically grease the components?


i already have my suspension complete besides sway bars,

KW V2, Rtabs, shims, strut bars, etc etc, im looking for the best handling without noise, im okay with greasing everynow and then i guess but no noise or fitment issues.
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Old 11-05-2008, 01:46 PM   #79
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i already have my suspension complete besides sway bars,

KW V2, Rtabs, shims, strut bars, etc etc, im looking for the best handling without noise, im okay with greasing everynow and then i guess but no noise or fitment issues.
I would go either Hotchkis or H&R. If you're not slammed and are still currently using stock bars, H&R would work for you with the benefits of retaining the stock end links, being quiet, and no regular maintenance. If you need adjustable end links because you've slammed the car, or if you simply like the reinforced mounting tabs (and don't want to bother with welding in the Turner reinforcements), then I would suggest you go with the Hotchkis.

As for solid vs hollow, there's not enough difference to matter.
As for diameters, you can't compare them due to the different designs.
As for which will reduce body roll the most, there is absolutely no measured data comparing the bars from which to make a decision but I will gaurantee you that you will be completely happy with either bar in this regard.

EDIT: how much have you experimented with the rebound damping on those KWs? You should be able to make noticeable changes in handling balance just with the dampers. I'd recommend you perfect this setting before adding additional suspension tuning variability.
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Old 11-05-2008, 02:09 PM   #80
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I would go either Hotchkis or H&R. If you're not slammed and are still currently using stock bars, H&R would work for you with the benefits of retaining the stock end links, being quiet, and no regular maintenance. If you need adjustable end links because you've slammed the car, or if you simply like the reinforced mounting tabs (and don't want to bother with welding in the Turner reinforcements), then I would suggest you go with the Hotchkis.

As for solid vs hollow, there's not enough difference to matter.
As for diameters, you can't compare them due to the different designs.
As for which will reduce body roll the most, there is absolutely no measured data comparing the bars from which to make a decision but I will gaurantee you that you will be completely happy with either bar in this regard.

EDIT: how much have you experimented with the rebound damping on those KWs? You should be able to make noticeable changes in handling balance just with the dampers. I'd recommend you perfect this setting before adding additional suspension tuning variability.
I am pretty slammed with the KW's in the back, do we HAVE to weld in the reinforment with the H&R???? dam, regarding the dampering there is a big difference with soft and stiff. when on soft, its very smooth and confy, at the same time handling is still amazing however you do feel a that it gets a bit soft/mushy on hard turns. on stiff its even better, very sollid, the steering is quicker and tighter, over handles better. i put it on soft because i daily drive it, when i go to the twisty's all i have to do it adjust it, ive only messed with the fronts, ive never changed my rears as id have to remove the wheels and shock, its currently set at in the middle, medium, i can only image how great it would be if i were to put both front and rears on stiff. So im gueesing HOtchkis would be the winner??
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