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Suspension & Braking Forum by BimmerWorld
Have some questions about suspension or brake setups for your E46 BMW? Get all your answers here!
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Old 11-05-2008, 02:25 PM   #81
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Hotchkis FTW! You have your answer!
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Old 11-05-2008, 02:27 PM   #82
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Kind of like the subframe issue, sway bar mount reinforcement isn't necessary unless yours happens to break. Necessary, no. Recommended, yes. The Turner kit is very inexpensive and costs almost nothing to weld in. I had mine done at the same time as the subframe reinforcements but ran the H&R bars for over a year prior to that.

Sounds like you might benefit from the adjustable end links that are packaged with the Hotchkis, would have to buy them separately with the H&R. The reinforced mounting brackets of the Hotchkis would just be another free add for you. So sure, go Hotchkis.

Be VERY, VERY careful when you adjust your dampers that way. Making dramatic damping changes to the front but not the rear will also dramatically change the handling balance of the car. I honestly don't know why you would worry about getting bigger, adjustable sway bars when you're going to go and mess up the car's balance by only partially adjusting the coilovers. IMHO, you would be much better off to dial in the suspension to be as sporty as you can tolerate on a day to day basis and then leave it be - forget adjusting it at all if it's not practical to do it properly.
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Old 11-05-2008, 02:36 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by TxZHP04 View Post
Kind of like the subframe issue, sway bar mount reinforcement isn't necessary unless yours happens to break. Necessary, no. Recommended, yes. The Turner kit is very inexpensive and costs almost nothing to weld in. I had mine done at the same time as the subframe reinforcements but ran the H&R bars for over a year prior to that.

Sounds like you might benefit from the adjustable end links that are packaged with the Hotchkis, would have to buy them separately with the H&R. The reinforced mounting brackets of the Hotchkis would just be another free add for you. So sure, go Hotchkis.

Be VERY, VERY careful when you adjust your dampers that way. Making dramatic damping changes to the front but not the rear will also dramatically change the handling balance of the car. I honestly don't know why you would worry about getting bigger, adjustable sway bars when you're going to go and mess up the car's balance by only partially adjusting the coilovers. IMHO, you would be much better off to dial in the suspension to be as sporty as you can tolerate on a day to day basis and then leave it be - forget adjusting it at all if it's not practical to do it properly.


tnx alot, i your right, i dont see why it would be bad to adjust them, i mean the front is on soft now, the rears are always medium, when i need to i just adjust the front to stiff.
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Old 11-05-2008, 02:47 PM   #84
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so there is no squeking with these,
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Old 11-05-2008, 02:48 PM   #85
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hey txzhp, dont you have H&R??
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Old 11-05-2008, 02:49 PM   #86
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I have never had any noise issues with the Hotchkis. Just use the lube they supply and follow the detailed install instructions and all will be well.
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Old 11-05-2008, 02:51 PM   #87
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k cool, so were is the cheapest price.
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Old 11-05-2008, 03:02 PM   #88
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Nah, some of the things I was just bringing up as points. Most of the other statements weren't directed at you. Just to the thread. Sorry if by quoting you it seemed I was directing all comments to you. I agree with most everythng you said.

As for bigger bars, I was only suggesting that the H&R aren't as big as something like the UUC bars which aren't European TUV. ST and UUC bars are just a few USA bars which are almost always bigger than their TUV approved counterparts. It's common knowledge their bars are smaller to pass testing. BIMMER and EC both had articles stating this. I'm not talking about the H-Sport in this case.

I'm not sure what the speculation and guessing is you are referring to. Bring up a certain question and I'll be happy to answer it if I have the answer..
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Originally Posted by cngzsn View Post
I thought it was pretty obvious

Personally I chose Turner sway bars, because they are H&R and blue
LOL yeah well lets pay extra for the name on it when it's the same bar ahaha.

I gave my personal thought on it - as its hard to quantify. For reasons of it being hallowed out design that I don't think will make a difference in terms of bending, but in terms of their company's belief when designing their bars. They test continually for optimal feel back and performance, and they have an E46 there as well. Lets see - the Fronts are 3 way adjustable - giving +31%,+51%,+77% stiffer settings over OEM and Rears are 2 way adjustable - up +138%,+171% over OEM.

So anyway between the two - H&R 21mm rear Hotchkis is 25.4mm rear.
I prefer the thicker bar.

I hope that helps explain my position on it
We sell both but I felt like jumping in with my personal opinion.
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Old 11-05-2008, 03:03 PM   #89
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k cool, so were is the cheapest price.
We'll have a low price guaranteed for you of course - and I put them on sale right know (SEMA special) -http://www.modbargains.com/product.aspx?pf_id=Hotchkis_E46M3_SwayBars_MW
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Old 11-05-2008, 03:08 PM   #90
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tnx alot, i your right, i dont see why it would be bad to adjust them, i mean the front is on soft now, the rears are always medium, when i need to i just adjust the front to stiff.
What you don't understand can hurt you (or worse).

Adjusting them isn't bad, adjusting them without understanding what you're doing can get dangerous. Same goes for adjusting sway bars.

My point was that the changes you make to rebound damping not only change ride quality, they also change the car's tendency to oversteer/understeer (at least on turn in and corner exit, not once the car takes a set). Clearly you have a limited understanding of vehicle dynamics and how changes you make to your new adjustable suspension impact the car's handling. I'm just warning you to be careful so you don't get yourself into trouble.
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Old 11-05-2008, 03:11 PM   #91
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We'll have a low price guaranteed for you of course - and I put them on sale right know (SEMA special) -http://www.modbargains.com/product.aspx?pf_id=Hotchkis_E46M3_SwayBars_MW
That is a great price!
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Old 11-05-2008, 03:14 PM   #92
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So anyway between the two - H&R 21mm rear Hotchkis is 25.4mm rear. I prefer the thicker bar.
Unfortunately you can't directly compare the diameters of a hollow bar with a solid bar. I don't know the wall thickness of the Hotchkis bar but the effective diameters of the two bars are much closer than you might think based on the outer diameter. Heck, it's even possible the H&R bar could be stiffer even though it's smaller (I'm not suggesting this is the case only stating that we don't really know enough to make this particular comparison).
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Old 11-05-2008, 03:23 PM   #93
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hey txzhp, dont you have H&R??
Yep.
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Old 11-05-2008, 03:42 PM   #94
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We should hire a pro driver and have him do a review on the different sway bars on a stock car.. that would settle it. Wait but what driver, and what type of springs

Seriously we need something like that - but then again its gotta be done in a controlled environment and who is the driver..

Yeah to say one is better then other is extremely difficult to say. I could make the argument that Turner has been very successful with running the H&R on their race car - then again it's their sponsor. So the argument is a difficult one, I think we can agree on that right?
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Old 11-05-2008, 03:52 PM   #95
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What you don't understand can hurt you (or worse).

Adjusting them isn't bad, adjusting them without understanding what you're doing can get dangerous. Same goes for adjusting sway bars.

My point was that the changes you make to rebound damping not only change ride quality, they also change the car's tendency to oversteer/understeer (at least on turn in and corner exit, not once the car takes a set). Clearly you have a limited understanding of vehicle dynamics and how changes you make to your new adjustable suspension impact the car's handling. I'm just warning you to be careful so you don't get yourself into trouble.

its true that with a stiffer rear setup, you might have an uneasy rear wobble during a high speed corner bend compared to how it helps during a slow tighter corner.

even shorter final drive have a great play on this dynamic and it when you take a passenger car and make it full race, you sacrifice comfort and sometimes safety.
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Old 11-05-2008, 03:53 PM   #96
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Yeah to say one is better then other is extremely difficult to say.... So the argument is a difficult one, I think we can agree on that right?
Yep, that's one of the points I've been trying to make. That, and from a "performance" perspective, there isn't really much difference between the various aftermarket offerings. Sure, there are price and feature differences and people need to make their decisions accordingly - which is why I also like to stress that it's important for people to be clear about why they recommend one product over another.
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Old 11-05-2008, 03:55 PM   #97
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LOL yeah well lets pay extra for the name on it when it's the same bar ahaha.
One may not necessarily have to pay more for the TMS, like I didn't have to

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron@modbargains View Post
I gave my personal thought on it - as its hard to quantify. For reasons of it being hallowed out design that I don't think will make a difference in terms of bending, but in terms of their company's belief when designing their bars. They test continually for optimal feel back and performance, and they have an E46 there as well. Lets see - the Fronts are 3 way adjustable - giving +31%,+51%,+77% stiffer settings over OEM and Rears are 2 way adjustable - up +138%,+171% over OEM.

So anyway between the two - H&R 21mm rear Hotchkis is 25.4mm rear.
I prefer the thicker bar.
You need to be comparing the stiffness, not the diameter. Do you happen to know the stiffness levels of the H&R's for the 2 front and 3 rear settings?

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Originally Posted by Ron@modbargains View Post

I hope that helps explain my position on it
We sell both but I felt like jumping in with my personal opinion.
I noticed you have H&R's for under $200 in your website, if this is the price for both bars, there is no justification for paying almost twice for Hotchkis IMO
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Old 11-05-2008, 04:02 PM   #98
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Unfortunately you can't directly compare the diameters of a hollow bar with a solid bar. I don't know the wall thickness of the Hotchkis bar but the effective diameters of the two bars are much closer than you might think based on the outer diameter.
True,
Unless someone measures/calculates and test the bars. Size alone is not a determination when one is hollow.
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Old 11-05-2008, 04:14 PM   #99
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One may not necessarily have to pay more for the TMS, like I didn't have to



You need to be comparing the stiffness, not the diameter. Do you happen to know the stiffness levels of the H&R's for the 2 front and 3 rear settings?



I noticed you have H&R's for under $200 in your website, if this is the price for both bars, there is no justification for paying almost twice for Hotchkis IMO
I don't know H&R's except their diameter size they really dont provide information.

The H&R thats for one bar - here is a link to the product information: http://www.modbargains.com/product.a...E46_3series_PR

I am going to visit both of them tomorrow and ask these questions. I am off to SEMA so lets see what they say.
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Old 11-05-2008, 05:15 PM   #100
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What you don't understand can hurt you (or worse).

Adjusting them isn't bad, adjusting them without understanding what you're doing can get dangerous. Same goes for adjusting sway bars.

My point was that the changes you make to rebound damping not only change ride quality, they also change the car's tendency to oversteer/understeer (at least on turn in and corner exit, not once the car takes a set). Clearly you have a limited understanding of vehicle dynamics and how changes you make to your new adjustable suspension impact the car's handling. I'm just warning you to be careful so you don't get yourself into trouble.
so what do you suggest that i adjust both front and rears equaly, for exampled both stiff or both soft.
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