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Old 04-02-2009, 08:28 PM   #21
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No one is forced to do anything.

Even if there was Shark Edit available for free, I believe there still would be great value in paying a good tuner to work their magic.
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Old 04-03-2009, 07:26 AM   #22
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I agree they should get paid for their work....but to make a fortune out of it is another thing....$350 for a shark injector is a bit overpriced i think....$250 would have been a bit better...and their price never goes down...why? because its the best?? no...because their isnt that much competition for them to even worry...
"They have no were else to go they WILL pay $350"
Get my point? So in a sense we are kind of force to pay a lot of money for these mods.


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No one is forced to do anything.

Even if there was Shark Edit available for free, I believe there still would be great value in paying a good tuner to work their magic.
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Old 04-03-2009, 07:54 AM   #23
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I agree they should get paid for their work....but to make a fortune out of it is another thing....$350 for a shark injector is a bit overpriced i think....$250 would have been a bit better...and their price never goes down...why? because its the best?? no...because their isnt that much competition for them to even worry...
"They have no were else to go they WILL pay $350"
Get my point? So in a sense we are kind of force to pay a lot of money for these mods.
Could not have said better myself. I hate being backed up against the corner with nowhere to go but pay rediculous amount of money on F/I kits... why? because we need the tune....
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Old 04-03-2009, 08:03 AM   #24
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Just to chime in with some interesting facts about so called overpriced FI kits for the E46. Our TS kits had a break even point of about ~200 kits, before that the R&D and kit production was a loss. The margins are nowhere near what you guys seem to think as a lot of high end components and engineering goes into these kits. It would cost way more than current kits on the market to build a properly working one of.
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Old 04-03-2009, 01:07 PM   #25
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if you guys think 350 is bad for shark,


the intrax module lets you bypass the 25 mph barrier where the x5 raises to a default set height with the air suspension after 25mph.

To defeat this and control the air suspension anytime and any speed

that little box is almost a thousand bux!!!!!!!!!!!(if anyone has a soultion half the price, pm me!)
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Old 04-03-2009, 07:38 PM   #26
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You take your car to a BMW dealer, and they charge $100/hr to work on your car. That is a service.

You take your car to an experienced tuner, and they charge $X to work on your DME. That is a service.

Since the topic of this thread is "custom" tuning, I don't think the price of a Shark Injector is relevant.

I'm not against having a tuning tool for the DME that is affordable. It would however be nice to have our top level BMW tuners respected and valued for the services they provide because they DO provide good value.

FWIW, I've seen a DME editor in person. I own a KWP2000+. I own a working piggyback. I have access to stand alone ECUs. But still...here I am promoting the value of what a good tuner is worth. Kinda makes a person wonder if I'm onto something...
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Old 04-03-2009, 09:08 PM   #27
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You take your car to a BMW dealer, and they charge $100/hr to work on your car. That is a service.

You take your car to an experienced tuner, and they charge $X to work on your DME. That is a service.

Since the topic of this thread is "custom" tuning, I don't think the price of a Shark Injector is relevant.

I'm not against having a tuning tool for the DME that is affordable. It would however be nice to have our top level BMW tuners respected and valued for the services they provide because they DO provide good value.

FWIW, I've seen a DME editor in person. I own a KWP2000+. I own a working piggyback. I have access to stand alone ECUs. But still...here I am promoting the value of what a good tuner is worth. Kinda makes a person wonder if I'm onto something...
I have been tuning cars for over 10 years and I charged for my services like every other tuner out there. I NEVER said that a tuner should not make any money or is not valuable...what I am talking about is not having a solution that anybody can use to tune... is what is wrong.

It severly limits everybody from being able to build their own F/I kits. Instead you have no choice but to shell out 5+++ grand for a kit with a mystery canned tune.

This is the first forum where no custom tuning is being done by members...WHY?... because the secrets are hidden with only a selected few...which happen to be the company building F/I kits. Right now they could charge whatever the hell they want because they really honestly have the upper hand because they have the tunes.

In the other forums; tuners help tuners....tuners help members learn the in's and out's.... some members become good tuners!! everybody helps each other and everybody benefits.

Hell, in my last forum we even had a section of location so people could look and get custom tuned.
http://cobaltss.net/forums/showthread.php?t=86603

Last edited by dennymedeiros; 04-03-2009 at 09:19 PM.
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Old 04-04-2009, 08:17 AM   #28
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I have been tuning cars for over 10 years and I charged for my services like every other tuner out there. I NEVER said that a tuner should not make any money or is not valuable...what I am talking about is not having a solution that anybody can use to tune... is what is wrong.

It severly limits everybody from being able to build their own F/I kits. Instead you have no choice but to shell out 5+++ grand for a kit with a mystery canned tune.

This is the first forum where no custom tuning is being done by members...WHY?... because the secrets are hidden with only a selected few...which happen to be the company building F/I kits. Right now they could charge whatever the hell they want because they really honestly have the upper hand because they have the tunes.

In the other forums; tuners help tuners....tuners help members learn the in's and out's.... some members become good tuners!! everybody helps each other and everybody benefits.

Hell, in my last forum we even had a section of location so people could look and get custom tuned.
http://cobaltss.net/forums/showthread.php?t=86603
My comments are not aimed at you specifically, but since this is an "open discussion", I'll respond to what you've shared above.

BMW stuck an ECU onto the E46 that frankly, everyone has taken for granted. It is a marvel of technology, with tuning that makes that technology seem simple. Below is a link to a comparable ECU from Bosch with most of the features of an MS43 DME. Notice the similarity in the case:

http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/pdf/e...line/MS_40.pdf

FYI, that ECU costs 5150 Euros, and it still is missing a few features in comparison.

I don't believe that all the secrets are hidden. I know that very few people, when given all the information, would understand what they are seeing. At that point, a person needs to ask themselves how much time they are willing to invest in figuring it out. Provided all the code is there in plain view, how many days, weeks, months, is it worth to get it all right.

If this was being done on a large scale, across many vehicle platforms, it then becomes somewhat feasable. Enter the FI gurus...because there is a potential payback on the time invested.

The next question is: Why would we spend all that time meddling when we could use a stand alone?

So far I've been focusing on the comercial end of "tuning". A valid question would be: How come a smart hobbiest can't dig into this and share what's learned? He could afford to make some mistakes, and his time would be free...

Or would it.

Most of the people I know that are smart enough to dig into tuning MS43 for example, are professionals in other fields. Their free time IS worth something to them. Usually, the smarter they are, the more their free time is worth.

So, getting back to the economics of this: Lets say I'm a software developer that normaly charges clients $100/hr for my services. I dig into an ECU, spend 3 days to figure out what's in there, spend 2 days on the dyno "playing" to see what changes are possible, and then start street tuning to polish the results. No offence to any software developers, but most of them take extreme pride in their work, and their EGO prevents them from sharing HOW they did it. Especially when it cost them how much in lost revenue?

I would love to have a DME editor that "translated" what was really going on. It would provide simple yes-no options on a GUI that then did complex code changes in the background for you. Even then, speaking for myself, I might be in over my head.

Where's that technical support phone #.....
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Old 04-06-2009, 05:06 PM   #29
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It seems to me that everyone always tends to use the excuse that it is very difficult to tune the BMW ECU and that the time involved should be rewarded by being able to have proprietary tunes and forcing people to go to those companies to help pay back their R&D time. Although I don't entirely disagree with this, and I understand that R&D is expensive, I believe that is the major flaw with the BMW community vs other car communities/forums. The time and difficulty needed to tune the BMW ECU would greatly decrease as more information became available, plus it would invoke new ideas and creativity to the whole BMW community. People looking for FI mods, wouldnt be forced to look into packaged kits, or wouldnt be heckled for asking if they could make their own turbo kit for their car, while at the same time companies offering kits would still see large sales due to people wanting quality engineered kits with customer support. E46fanatics and other BMW forums should embrace the knowledge for a "free" tuning, similar to programs like OpenECU or ROMraider, although i understand the BMW's ECU is more complicated then Subrau's. Hopefully dennymedeiros project works and theres an abundant amount of information available, which all of us can use, not just tuners.
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Old 04-06-2009, 05:51 PM   #30
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It seems to me that everyone always tends to use the excuse that it is very difficult to tune the BMW ECU and that the time involved should be rewarded by being able to have proprietary tunes and forcing people to go to those companies to help pay back their R&D time. Although I don't entirely disagree with this, and I understand that R&D is expensive, I believe that is the major flaw with the BMW community vs other car communities/forums. The time and difficulty needed to tune the BMW ECU would greatly decrease as more information became available, plus it would invoke new ideas and creativity to the whole BMW community. People looking for FI mods, wouldnt be forced to look into packaged kits, or wouldnt be heckled for asking if they could make their own turbo kit for their car, while at the same time companies offering kits would still see large sales due to people wanting quality engineered kits with customer support. E46fanatics and other BMW forums should embrace the knowledge for a "free" tuning, similar to programs like OpenECU or ROMraider, although i understand the BMW's ECU is more complicated then Subrau's. Hopefully dennymedeiros project works and theres an abundant amount of information available, which all of us can use, not just tuners.

Well said...and my contribution to you all will be every single detail I learn with the BMW ECU will be shared and hopefully others will follow and help me...
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Old 04-06-2009, 09:31 PM   #31
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If I had something useful to share about tuning MS43, I would have done so. Everything else I've been doing...well...I'm pretty transparent on that stuff.
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Old 04-06-2009, 09:59 PM   #32
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Old 04-06-2009, 10:08 PM   #33
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It seems to me that everyone always tends to use the excuse that it is very difficult to tune the BMW ECU and that the time involved should be rewarded by being able to have proprietary tunes and forcing people to go to those companies to help pay back their R&D time. Although I don't entirely disagree with this, and I understand that R&D is expensive, I believe that is the major flaw with the BMW community vs other car communities/forums. The time and difficulty needed to tune the BMW ECU would greatly decrease as more information became available, plus it would invoke new ideas and creativity to the whole BMW community. People looking for FI mods, wouldnt be forced to look into packaged kits, or wouldnt be heckled for asking if they could make their own turbo kit for their car, while at the same time companies offering kits would still see large sales due to people wanting quality engineered kits with customer support. E46fanatics and other BMW forums should embrace the knowledge for a "free" tuning, similar to programs like OpenECU or ROMraider, although i understand the BMW's ECU is more complicated then Subrau's. Hopefully dennymedeiros project works and theres an abundant amount of information available, which all of us can use, not just tuners.
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Old 04-07-2009, 06:06 AM   #34
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first time posting so please bare with a noob. Also please excuse my spelling i know it needs work.

I think this is great.
1) I love my car and love working on it. How could home mechanics not love the idea of tuning their own cars, getting the best performance possible out of their cars. Its been my experiene that every car is unique, every situation so custom tuning would be the ideal.
2) How about a day at the track were we could tune in our cars exactly for the temp of the day the elavation air density and all those other little quirks that take part of our cars performance.
3) This wouldn't be usefull just to FI either, everyone would benifit from a community wide effort. For example im droping a m54b30 engine into my 325i who has the correct tuning for my car? then what if i change the exhaust? what if i do cold air? everyones setup is a little different
4) YES there is a lot of R&D involved and YES time is money and the smarter you are the more your time is worth but lets not forget this would be a hobby and hobbies are not ment for profits they are ment to be bottomless pits of waisting Time and Money but you dont care because you love your hobby otherwise you should get a new one. but when a whole commuinty gets involved everyone shares in the R&D for a better final product.
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Old 04-07-2009, 08:18 AM   #35
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I agree
Sad not everyone feels this way....
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Originally Posted by evilstar View Post
first time posting so please bare with a noob. Also please excuse my spelling i know it needs work.

I think this is great.
1) I love my car and love working on it. How could home mechanics not love the idea of tuning their own cars, getting the best performance possible out of their cars. Its been my experiene that every car is unique, every situation so custom tuning would be the ideal.
2) How about a day at the track were we could tune in our cars exactly for the temp of the day the elavation air density and all those other little quirks that take part of our cars performance.
3) This wouldn't be usefull just to FI either, everyone would benifit from a community wide effort. For example im droping a m54b30 engine into my 325i who has the correct tuning for my car? then what if i change the exhaust? what if i do cold air? everyones setup is a little different
4) YES there is a lot of R&D involved and YES time is money and the smarter you are the more your time is worth but lets not forget this would be a hobby and hobbies are not ment for profits they are ment to be bottomless pits of waisting Time and Money but you dont care because you love your hobby otherwise you should get a new one. but when a whole commuinty gets involved everyone shares in the R&D for a better final product.
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Old 04-07-2009, 01:15 PM   #36
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becasue we're not 12, and understand that bmw dme compensates for the conditions and adapts up to 15% on earlier models and 7% or so on the new ones ..that out of the box it will perform under all conditions perfectly cause it was designed with that in mind as a performance passenger car by german engineers.

shark it for 7k rpm and 91 octane rating. Thats the only tuning id like to see avail to the general public that do not comprehend efficiency but think they can just raise parameters and get away with real horsepower by adding intake and exhaust and even using voltage regulators to minimized loss or some resistor on the maf.

when you drop in a 3.0 there is no tune involved just alignment of the new dme with your harnesses from a gt @ the dealers, you need parts.

i think most of you should just wait for the shark edit to save time and money and breath.

no one is going to open source such an expensive extensive work decrypting the bmw ecu.

and even if they did, it would require a dyno and something more then bunch of words in a paragraph mispelled like some 16 year old with dream and hope on tuning his own car @ the track for the ambient temperature of the asphalt and elavation %???^&?.
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Old 04-07-2009, 01:33 PM   #37
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becasue we're not 12, and understand that bmw dme compensates for the conditions and adapts up to 15% on earlier models and 7% or so on the new ones ..that out of the box it will perform under all conditions perfectly cause it was designed with that in mind as a performance passenger car by german engineers.

shark it for 7k rpm and 91 octane rating. Thats the only tuning id like to see avail to the general public that do not comprehend efficiency but think they can just raise parameters and get away with real horsepower by adding intake and exhaust and even using voltage regulators to minimized loss or some resistor on the maf.

when you drop in a 3.0 there is no tune involved just alignment of the new dme with your harnesses from a gt @ the dealers, you need parts.

i think most of you should just wait for the shark edit to save time and money and breath.

no one is going to open source such an expensive extensive work decrypting the bmw ecu.

and even if they did, it would require a dyno and something more then bunch of words in a paragraph mispelled like some 16 year old with dream and hope on tuning his own car @ the track for the ambient temperature of the asphalt and elavation %???^&?.
Well said.

I think that a lot of "tuners" coming from the import world are used to systems such as the emanage or s-afc, and believe that it'd be that simple to tune our ecu. I've played around with tunerpro with obd I maps, and just simply understanding which variables effect others is quite difficult. Making changes and understanding them is even harder.

If you want to tune your car for an F/I system and have little experience with the bmw dme, use a piggyback.
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Old 04-08-2009, 10:51 AM   #38
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I think to say "that out of the box it will perform under all conditions perfectly cause it was designed with that in mind as a performance passenger car by german engineers." is exactly the misnomer that needs to be clarified. The BMW DME is a very good ECU, the adaptation it allows is amazing. However, it is a basic ECU just like every other ECU on every production car today, and that means 1 thing, the Air/Fuel ratio used in the programming of the ECU is tuned for the stoichiometric Air/Fuel ratio, which i believe is about 14.7. I mean obviously this varies but essentially the car has to make the Catalytic Converters happy to pass emissions, and Cats like a certain A/F ratio, a ratio which is not right for either maximum performance nor SFC, specific fuel consumption. So by that logic, your engine could make more power even if you don't want an FI kit a tune and intake/exhaust would show gains. And not everyone has the money to drop on Dinan, AA, or other chips, something an ECU re-flash would fix for fair cheap, especially if bolt on tunes were available on the forums.
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Old 04-08-2009, 11:32 AM   #39
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I think to say "that out of the box it will perform under all conditions perfectly cause it was designed with that in mind as a performance passenger car by german engineers." is exactly the misnomer that needs to be clarified. The BMW DME is a very good ECU, the adaptation it allows is amazing. However, it is a basic ECU just like every other ECU on every production car today, and that means 1 thing, the Air/Fuel ratio used in the programming of the ECU is tuned for the stoichiometric Air/Fuel ratio, which i believe is about 14.7. I mean obviously this varies but essentially the car has to make the Catalytic Converters happy to pass emissions, and Cats like a certain A/F ratio, a ratio which is not right for either maximum performance nor SFC, specific fuel consumption. So by that logic, your engine could make more power even if you don't want an FI kit a tune and intake/exhaust would show gains. And not everyone has the money to drop on Dinan, AA, or other chips, something an ECU re-flash would fix for fair cheap, especially if bolt on tunes were available on the forums.
The time and money you'd spend in software and hardware to even flash your ECU would result to multiple times the amount that you'd pay for an NA tune from any vendor. And I'll bet that you will not see any more HP from bolt on's than you would with a vendor flash.
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Old 04-08-2009, 11:58 AM   #40
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The time and money you'd spend in software and hardware to even flash your ECU would result to multiple times the amount that you'd pay for an NA tune from any vendor. And I'll bet that you will not see any more HP from bolt on's than you would with a vendor flash.
I have located the hardware to read/Flash the Siemens MS43 DME in my car bought it and it should arrive soon.

I have access to a stock file right now as we speak which I am going to decrypt/translate the info for the maps that I am interested in modifying:

(PE Power enrichment, All Timing maps, Vanos, MAF, throttle position, rpm limit, speed limiter)

The time consuming part is finding the maps...With these maps I can create a great N/A tune to start. Right now I am under 60$...no joke.

So TIME yes....Money no..oh and a good basic-medium knowledge on real time tuning not just theory.

I will share everything once I crack these.

Last edited by dennymedeiros; 04-08-2009 at 12:08 PM.
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