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Old 04-04-2009, 01:50 PM   #1
lifeiskaos
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s54 ITB's on m52

anybody around here done this kinda thing? i currently have access to a single vanos m52, a double vanos m52tu and s54 throttle bodies (well, someone from the UK wants to sell me his but shipping is a *****. i have a WTB thread if any US guys have some they are selling). i cant for the life of me find a good comparison for the intake ports... i want to do the conversion and wondered if anyone has done this. i'm not here to discuss whether this is a good or bad upgrade, or whether it is worth the money. the novelty is intriguing to me and that's all that matters. show me whatchu got!

edit: oh hell, the m52tub25 intake ports arent shaped like "D"'s are they? i was under the assumption they were the same as the single vanos m52, but after doing some research, people are saying the m52tu is practically a restricted m54... it's harder to adapt D shaped ports to oval throttles than it is oval to oval

Last edited by lifeiskaos; 04-05-2009 at 01:54 AM.
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Old 04-04-2009, 04:48 PM   #2
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Its not possible. The two engines share none of the same parts.
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Old 04-04-2009, 05:05 PM   #3
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i did not ask if it was possible. i have access to a machine shop to make an adapter plate.

so i ask again, has anyone done this? and does anyone have a picture of m52tub25 intake ports? thank you.
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Old 04-04-2009, 05:19 PM   #4
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Took my intake manifold off yesterday (m52TUB25) they are oval.
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Old 04-04-2009, 05:21 PM   #5
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Took my intake manifold off yesterday (m52TUB25) they are oval.
awesome, thanks! i think it is safe to say then that they are the same as m50/m52 single vanos ports. that will make things much easier.
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Old 04-04-2009, 05:27 PM   #6
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And what happens after you physically fit the ITBs ?
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Old 04-04-2009, 05:34 PM   #7
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port and polish, wild camshafts, airbox , headers and 200cps cats with custom remap?
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Old 04-04-2009, 09:57 PM   #8
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Don't think anyone has actually done this .. I would imagine getting the computer to work with the ITBs is going to be the biggest ***** .. good luck though .. if you make it happen posts lots of pics .. should be a damn nice performace boost
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Old 04-05-2009, 12:53 AM   #9
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Don't think anyone has actually done this .. I would imagine getting the computer to work with the ITBs is going to be the biggest ***** .. good luck though .. if you make it happen posts lots of pics .. should be a damn nice performace boost
my EMS can handle DBW, but i have yet to decide if i will use it or convert to throttle cable. yes, the performance "boost" should compliment my boost rather nicely
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Old 04-05-2009, 01:27 AM   #10
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OP is doing the work to an e30?
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Old 04-05-2009, 01:53 AM   #11
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yes sir
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Old 04-05-2009, 04:40 AM   #12
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First I have to ask, what is the point?

-If you try putting ITBs between the head and the intake manifold, I don't think it will fit due to the intake manifold touching the shock tower. So I guess you will have to make a new intake manifold or buy an S54 or S50 intake manifold.
-It's likely not going to bring any difference in performance. If anything, you will likely lose performance. I believe ITBs mess up the design of tuned length intake runners ruining torque engine dynamics.
-Have you thought about the fact that S54 throttle bodies are controlled with an electronic throttle while the M52 throttle is by cable? How are you going to retuned the engine for this different setup? Only very high end ECU's can control drive-by-wire throttles.

Spending all this money likely isn't going to get you any performance and I personally can't justify thousands just for looks. Why not just put an S50 in your car at this point?

Doing this is just a waste of time, money, and effort.
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Old 04-05-2009, 11:51 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by mkodama View Post
First I have to ask, what is the point?
it's different and unique.

Quote:
-If you try putting ITBs between the head and the intake manifold, I don't think it will fit due to the intake manifold touching the shock tower. So I guess you will have to make a new intake manifold or buy an S54 or S50 intake manifold.
i have designed and flowtested a plenum with runners in CAD that i can have CNC'd out of a block of foam and cover it in a couple layers of fiberglass and then carbon fiber.
Quote:
-It's likely not going to bring any difference in performance. If anything, you will likely lose performance. I believe ITBs mess up the design of tuned length intake runners ruining torque engine dynamics.
i do not intend on gaining any power with this mod. if anything, throttle response and a lot of people saying "wtf" when they open my hood

Quote:
-Have you thought about the fact that S54 throttle bodies are controlled with an electronic throttle while the M52 throttle is by cable? How are you going to retuned the engine for this different setup? Only very high end ECU's can control drive-by-wire throttles.
yes i have put much thought into this. i believe i mentioned in this thread that my EMS can handle DBW but have yet to decide if i will fab a linkage to convert to throttle cable.

Quote:
Spending all this money likely isn't going to get you any performance and I personally can't justify thousands just for looks. Why not just put an S50 in your car at this point?

Doing this is just a waste of time, money, and effort.
i am well aware of the price, time, and effort that is involved in a project like this. i am also aware that most of you think it's a waste of time. this is not a budget project and to be frank i could care less if you guys think it's "worth it"

thank you for your opinion but i am really looking for ideas and people with similar experiences
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Old 04-05-2009, 12:20 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by lifeiskaos View Post
thank you for your opinion but i am really looking for ideas and people with similar experiences
Doubt you'll find any here. This is something that I'm pretty sure has never been done.
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Old 04-05-2009, 01:10 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by mkodama View Post
First I have to ask, what is the point?

-If you try putting ITBs between the head and the intake manifold, I don't think it will fit due to the intake manifold touching the shock tower. So I guess you will have to make a new intake manifold or buy an S54 or S50 intake manifold.
-It's likely not going to bring any difference in performance. If anything, you will likely lose performance. I believe ITBs mess up the design of tuned length intake runners ruining torque engine dynamics.
-Have you thought about the fact that S54 throttle bodies are controlled with an electronic throttle while the M52 throttle is by cable? How are you going to retuned the engine for this different setup? Only very high end ECU's can control drive-by-wire throttles.

Spending all this money likely isn't going to get you any performance and I personally can't justify thousands just for looks. Why not just put an S50 in your car at this point?

Doing this is just a waste of time, money, and effort.
This appears to be the reason

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamBath View Post
Doubt you'll find any here. This is something that I'm pretty sure has never been done.


Good luck OP, have you checked over on the e30 forums?
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Old 04-05-2009, 02:22 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeiskaos View Post
it's different and unique.



i have designed and flowtested a plenum with runners in CAD that i can have CNC'd out of a block of foam and cover it in a couple layers of fiberglass and then carbon fiber.

i do not intend on gaining any power with this mod. if anything, throttle response and a lot of people saying "wtf" when they open my hood


yes i have put much thought into this. i believe i mentioned in this thread that my EMS can handle DBW but have yet to decide if i will fab a linkage to convert to throttle cable.



i am well aware of the price, time, and effort that is involved in a project like this. i am also aware that most of you think it's a waste of time. this is not a budget project and to be frank i could care less if you guys think it's "worth it"

thank you for your opinion but i am really looking for ideas and people with similar experiences
Well, if you are still set on this info...

If you are able to get S50 ITBs, they are already cable actuated. If you are set on the S54 throttle bodies, I believe VAC Motorsport offers a drive-by-wire to cable conversion. I also know that the M5x and S5x motors all share a lot of similarities. For example, the M54B30 and S52B30 use the exact same crank, so I think you should be good in terms of bore-to-bore spacing. I think bolt pattern is off though. You might want to search throught the M54B30 engine build thread in the motorsports forum as pei330ci was trying to install either ITBs or an S50 intake manifold at one point. There is a lot of great engine information in that thread as well. Other than that, I don't think anybody on the forums has gone through with putting ITBs on a non-M engine.

Good luck on the project, and if you go through with making the intake manifold, I'd be extremely interested in pictures and explanations of how you did it.
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Old 04-05-2009, 03:28 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamBath View Post
Doubt you'll find any here. This is something that I'm pretty sure has never been done.
yeah i kinda figured that... i'm fine with being the first

Quote:
Originally Posted by wesCUHz View Post
This appears to be the reason

Good luck OP, have you checked over on the e30 forums?
yeah e30tech and r3vlimited are my home forums but not many of them have experience with m52's, let alone F/I and standalone EMS

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkodama View Post
Well, if you are still set on this info...

If you are able to get S50 ITBs, they are already cable actuated. If you are set on the S54 throttle bodies, I believe VAC Motorsport offers a drive-by-wire to cable conversion. I also know that the M5x and S5x motors all share a lot of similarities. For example, the M54B30 and S52B30 use the exact same crank, so I think you should be good in terms of bore-to-bore spacing. I think bolt pattern is off though. You might want to search throught the M54B30 engine build thread in the motorsports forum as pei330ci was trying to install either ITBs or an S50 intake manifold at one point. There is a lot of great engine information in that thread as well. Other than that, I don't think anybody on the forums has gone through with putting ITBs on a non-M engine.

Good luck on the project, and if you go through with making the intake manifold, I'd be extremely interested in pictures and explanations of how you did it.
i will post pictures for sure. yeah i've read through pei330ci's build. it's quite inspiring. however, there are two large problems in fitting euro s50 throttle bodies on a single vanos engine, seen here (NOT MINE):

1) the TPS bracket hits the vanos solenoid and needs to be modified:

2) the oil filter housing needs to be shortened to be able to accept m42 oil filters:

but the final product is pretty cool:


so that has been done before. yesterday i finalized shipping stuff for my ITB's from europe and ended up getting a damn good deal. the TPS is much closer to the throttle body so hopefully i'll clear the vanos solenoid and oil filter housing, but if not i can offset them a couple millimeters and make a remote mount oil filter block like VAC sells. i am also aware of the throttle cable conversion that many companies sell for the s54, but obviously it is designed for the s54 block and i do not know if it will work on an m52.

just to correct you, the m54b30 has the same crank as the s52b32. the extra displacement comes from a much higher bore. my engine build consists of the s52 crank, stock bore for the most (stock) headgasket sealing surface and orings, m52b28 pistons, and m20b27 rods. this yields 3 liters with 8.9:1 C/R. i chose this route for high displacement which means i will need less boost to achieve the same power. this justifies a not "built" bottom end with custom parts, and also justifies using the aluminum block, which is known to not handle huge amounts of boost well. rods are being reconditioned, crank has been balance and polished. i have all the parts (or will shortly) ready to finish the build this summer hopefully.

does anybody know if m52tu is a variable vanos system like the m54, or on/off like the single vanos m52?

Last edited by lifeiskaos; 04-05-2009 at 03:32 PM.
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Old 04-05-2009, 03:46 PM   #18
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yeah i kinda figured that... i'm fine with being the first



yeah e30tech and r3vlimited are my home forums but not many of them have experience with m52's, let alone F/I and standalone EMS



i will post pictures for sure. yeah i've read through pei330ci's build. it's quite inspiring. however, there are two large problems in fitting euro s50 throttle bodies on a single vanos engine, seen here (NOT MINE):

1) the TPS bracket hits the vanos solenoid and needs to be modified:

2) the oil filter housing needs to be shortened to be able to accept m42 oil filters:

but the final product is pretty cool:


so that has been done before. yesterday i finalized shipping stuff for my ITB's from europe and ended up getting a damn good deal. the TPS is much closer to the throttle body so hopefully i'll clear the vanos solenoid and oil filter housing, but if not i can offset them a couple millimeters and make a remote mount oil filter block like VAC sells. i am also aware of the throttle cable conversion that many companies sell for the s54, but obviously it is designed for the s54 block and i do not know if it will work on an m52.

just to correct you, the m54b30 has the same crank as the s52b32. the extra displacement comes from a much higher bore. my engine build consists of the s52 crank, stock bore for the most (stock) headgasket sealing surface and orings, m52b28 pistons, and m20b27 rods. this yields 3 liters with 8.9:1 C/R. i chose this route for high displacement which means i will need less boost to achieve the same power. this justifies a not "built" bottom end with custom parts, and also justifies using the aluminum block, which is known to not handle huge amounts of boost well. rods are being reconditioned, crank has been balance and polished. i have all the parts (or will shortly) ready to finish the build this summer hopefully.

does anybody know if m52tu is a variable vanos system like the m54, or on/off like the single vanos m52?
To critique that build:
-If you are using an aftermarket ECU, relocating the TPS is really easy. You just need to mount it somewhere and attach it to the ITB throttles with a linkage and then in most ECU tuning software, you can set the 100% and 0% throttle limits. Piece of cake.
-It seems like it would be much cleaner and easier to just get a remote oil filter housing from VAC motorsport. That way you can just run a remote motorsports style oil filter somewhere out of the way freeing up a lot of space in that area. EDIT (oops, you already had this planned )

And to answer your question about the VANOS, the M52tu uses a VANOS system like on the M54 engines which varies both intake and exhaust cams. To the best of my knowledge at least.

Cool project. What kinda pricing did you get on the ITBs?
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Old 04-05-2009, 04:57 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by mkodama View Post
To critique that build:
-If you are using an aftermarket ECU, relocating the TPS is really easy. You just need to mount it somewhere and attach it to the ITB throttles with a linkage and then in most ECU tuning software, you can set the 100% and 0% throttle limits. Piece of cake.
-It seems like it would be much cleaner and easier to just get a remote oil filter housing from VAC motorsport. That way you can just run a remote motorsports style oil filter somewhere out of the way freeing up a lot of space in that area. EDIT (oops, you already had this planned )

And to answer your question about the VANOS, the M52tu uses a VANOS system like on the M54 engines which varies both intake and exhaust cams. To the best of my knowledge at least.

Cool project. What kinda pricing did you get on the ITBs?
regarding remote mount TPS: very true. i refuse to modify the throttle bodies (like grind part of it down) and could basically mount and calibrate a potentiometer (TPS) somewhere in the linkage and calibrate it within my EMS software.

yeah i figured vanos was variable. that makes tuning a much bigger pain in the ass...

for the ITB's they ended up being under $400 delivered. not sure how great of a deal that is as you can hardly find them for sale, but i do not feel i was ripped off.




so convince me, WHICH ENGINE SHOULD I USE? aluminum m52 from a z3 (single vanos) or a double vanos m52tu? let's do a comparison, feel free to add opinions:

z3 m52: light, single vanos, easier to tune, can use s52 cams (great for turbo)

m52tu: +20lbs, can't use s52 cams hard to tune double vanos, but potentially more fuel efficient and quicker turbo spooling
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Old 04-05-2009, 06:09 PM   #20
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regarding remote mount TPS: very true. i refuse to modify the throttle bodies (like grind part of it down) and could basically mount and calibrate a potentiometer (TPS) somewhere in the linkage and calibrate it within my EMS software.

yeah i figured vanos was variable. that makes tuning a much bigger pain in the ass...

for the ITB's they ended up being under $400 delivered. not sure how great of a deal that is as you can hardly find them for sale, but i do not feel i was ripped off.




so convince me, WHICH ENGINE SHOULD I USE? aluminum m52 from a z3 (single vanos) or a double vanos m52tu? let's do a comparison, feel free to add opinions:

z3 m52: light, single vanos, easier to tune, can use s52 cams (great for turbo)

m52tu: +20lbs, can't use s52 cams hard to tune double vanos, but potentially more fuel efficient and quicker turbo spooling
Good price! Buying OEM, each throttle body is supposedly $368 each, so $368*6=$2208 from the dealer.

I'd probably use the Z3 M52. Getting to use the S52 cams as well as less things to break is always nice.

I do remember a company that was making a stand-alone VANOS controller though. I can't exactly remember the name of the company, but they had a working controller and they were still in the testing process. I think it was tunable with software and needed just power and a tach signal.
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