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Old 06-04-2009, 06:26 PM   #81
jeffro3000
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Originally Posted by nite-stalker View Post
although we would want to think their research is objective and unbiased, it is usually written in the best interest of their business.
But longer drain intervals would lead to less oil sales, right? Wouldn't that be against their best interest?

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This is a great informational thread. Keep the personal attacks, subtle jabs, and pointless comments out of here!

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Old 06-04-2009, 06:48 PM   #82
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The abstract mentioned by the OP says:

"These improvements were observed as early as the 3,000 mile drain interval and continued to the 15,000 mile drain interval."

Their comment would appear to support BMW's target for oil change interval.

It's a pity they didn't run the "fleet" of three cars to longer mileage intervals. We might have learned that the improvements observed continued after 15,001 miles.

I wonder at what mileage interval the improvements are no longer observed.

I wonder what happens to those observed improvements when the vehicle approaches Castrol's 30,000 mile figure.
This is the point i'd to find, or at least get as close as possible to. there has to come a point where oxidation, lack of TBN, etc. starts to become the main factors in the performance of the oil. Basically, you could think of a graph of two lines. One represents the benefits gained from leaving the oil in, as mentioned in the SAE paper. The other line would represent the degrading of the oil due to aforementioned factors, plus many others. Then, logically, the optimum OCI would be at the intersection of these two lines.

The main factor i dont know anything about is how the viscosity change (due to shearing) affects the performance of the oil. Blackstone lists a range that it should be in at a certain mileage, but thats it. The only thing to go by is when it shears out of grade i guess. Hopefully this wont be as much of an issue with GC. It seems to shear less than M1 0w-40.

If i can get an idea of where my two lines intersect, than it eliminates all the guesswork and random opinions floating around. Thats seems to be the problem with the oil threads. Nobody has any real data or research behind any of their opinions. You get answers anywhere from 3k to 15k.
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Old 06-04-2009, 07:22 PM   #83
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1. Estimates aren't very good when you are putting a $4000 engine on the line. You should be careful with your engine, and definitely very careful about giving advice to others.
2. What are your qualifications for providing this information in the first place?Any degree in automotive, petroleum, or chemical engineering? Something remotely relevant? Unless you have a respect and knowledgeable background on the subject, your claims aren't truly valid. For that exact reason is why Royal Purple had to retract many of their oil claims; they were running off customer's claims and old standards and test.
3. How do you plan on measuring the total base number of your oil that tells you when the protective additives have run out?
4. I don't mean to attack you or anything and I do respect your quest for finding the useable life of an oil in a BMW engine.
Estimates are especially good when people put their money where their mouth is. That is qualification enough.

I measure the TBN using whatever figure you consider to be correct, then half or quarter that to arrive at the correct figure. So what did you say the correct TBN is again ?

I advise people using pure simple reasoning rather than random numbers. If you are worried that people might choose to listen to me more than you, then it is time for you to come up with more convincing answers. Generally I suggest people follow BMW's recommendations. It's a position difficult to beat. To prove me wrong, you have to prove that BMW is wrong. I like to see you try. To start with, where is the evidence to say there is insufficient TBN on a 15k drain interval ?
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Old 06-04-2009, 07:45 PM   #84
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Reasoning, like taking large profit-seeking companies at their word with no question.
Better than taking words from little profit seeking companies who say Nice. One advantage of a large profit seeking company is that they actually have an army of qualified engineers.
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Old 06-04-2009, 07:47 PM   #85
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Estimates are especially good when people put their money where their mouth is. That is qualification enough.

I measure the TBN using whatever figure you consider to be correct, then half or quarter that to arrive at the correct figure. So what did you say the correct TBN is again ?

I advise people using pure simple reasoning rather than random numbers. If you are worried that people might choose to listen to me more than you, then it is time for you to come up with more convincing answers. Generally I suggest people follow BMW's recommendations. It's a position difficult to beat. To prove me wrong, you have to prove that BMW is wrong. I like to see you try. To start with, where is the evidence to say there is insufficient TBN on a 15k drain interval ?
Oil is deemed useable until the Total Base Number is less than 1.0 At that point, there are very little of the additives remaining in the oil to prevent it from becoming acidic. Even though the oil may still provide protection against wear, it will slowly eat away at bearings and other soft metals.

And reasoning does not compare to factual numbers. Like, for example, for those Tornado things people put in their intakes and claim to get better mileage and more horsepower, then some people go out and put their cars on a dyno and find out it makes less horsepower than before adding that device. What would you believe, the "reasoning" of the people who think they are getting more power or the people who have numerical proof their car is making less power?

Also, you can't say BMW is backing you up. You are supporting your theory of a 45,000 mile service interval, while BMW suggests sticking to the countdown meter on the instrument display. The meter in one of my cars ran out at 9500 miles, which is not 15,000 and definitely not 45,000.
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Old 06-04-2009, 07:52 PM   #86
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Better than taking words from little profit seeking companies who say Nice. One advantage of a large profit seeking company is that they actually have an army of qualified engineers.
My words are the parts per million of 20 elements found in the oil, along with it's viscosity, flashpoint, and the percent dilution of antifreeze, water, gasoline, and insolubles. Oh, and the remaining active additives in the oil.

What are your words again? An unsupported claim that castrol oil lasts up to 30k miles?

You might want to read this:

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=680055

Seems that large companies bend the truth sometimes to get suckers to buy their product.... Who would have though? Not you obviously.
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Old 06-04-2009, 07:59 PM   #87
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Oil is deemed useable until the Total Base Number is less than 1.0
Excellent, now we have something to work with. Have you ever seen an oil analysis indicating a TBN of less than 1 ? If not, then nobody needs to change their oil provided his engine is not compromised by inappropriate filters. 45k mile interval is not as far fetched as you think. In any case I never suggested anyone else should use a 45k interval. It is just my preferred interval.

If the service indicator tells you to change at 9.5 then change at 9.5. Mine looks like it will tell me to change at 15k. Whether 9.5k or 15k, there would still be significantly more that 1 TBN left in the oil.
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Old 06-04-2009, 08:02 PM   #88
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Seems that large companies bend the truth sometimes to get suckers to buy their product.... Who would have though? Not you obviously.
Sometimes, and they get caught. Has BMW been caught for their oil claims ? Show me the link.
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Old 06-04-2009, 08:08 PM   #89
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Sometimes, and they get caught. Has BMW been caught for their oil claims ? Show me the link.
I'm talking about Castrol here. Please try to keep up.

You still have yet to provide me with links to any proof that their claims are true. Unsupported claims are on the same level as opinion.

The National Advertising Division of the Council of Better Business Bureau said this about unsupported claims:

"...that Royal Purple discontinue its use of consumer testimonials reporting specific performance attributes in the absence of reliable independent evidence showing performance capability."

Seems they agree with me, that claims with no "independent evidence showing performance capability" are completely useless. Guess what. That's what your entire argument is based on.

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Old 06-04-2009, 08:38 PM   #90
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*whoosh*

Right over your head.
Actually all this kind of stuff is way beyond you. I don't understand why you bother. The harder you try, the less convincing you become.

You should be thanking Castrol for bringing RP to task. It is Castrol's parent company BP that took RP to the cleaners. If Castrol made similar false claims as RP did, BP would not have won the case. This reaffirms what an upright company Castrol is. So we can all take their oil claims as genuine. I am now seriously leaning towards telling everyone to use a 30k interval, in preference to even BMW's recommendation, since Castrol oils are capable of that.

Last edited by GoingNuts; 06-04-2009 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 06-04-2009, 09:11 PM   #91
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Excellent, now we have something to work with. Have you ever seen an oil analysis indicating a TBN of less than 1 ? If not, then nobody needs to change their oil provided his engine is not compromised by inappropriate filters.
I've seen 3 cases where the TBN bottomed out before the OLM (oil life monitor) indicated a change. For whatever reason UOAs were done and showed significantly elevated levels of lead, copper, and tin. Nothing to do with filtration, but obviously other factors involved.

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45k mile interval is not as far fetched as you think. In any case I never suggested anyone else should use a 45k interval. It is just my preferred interval.
Back this with some hard data and it may appear more convincing than a mere preference.

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If the service indicator tells you to change at 9.5 then change at 9.5. Mine looks like it will tell me to change at 15k. Whether 9.5k or 15k, there would still be significantly more that 1 TBN left in the oil.
How can you be sure? You may not be onboard with oil analysis, but here it is the only way to know for certain. It can also catch potential problems early before they cause something catastophic to happen.

Hate to sound like a broken record for doing UOAs, but unless its done all you can do is speculate and conjecture. I used to be of the similar opinion that its a waste of money. Right up to the point of doing one and saving my engine from a premature death due to an overly aggressive fuel system cleaner that was eating my bearing overlays.
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Old 06-04-2009, 09:14 PM   #92
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^ Finally lol. I was wondering when the resident expert would show up.

Shortyb, do you have any more information about the contents of the SAE paper posted? I'd be interested to know how the oil's protection ability changes throughout it's life.
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Old 06-04-2009, 09:22 PM   #93
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^ Finally lol. I was wondering when the resident expert would show up.

Shortyb, do you have any more information about the contents of the SAE paper posted? I'd be interested to know how the oil's protection ability changes throughout it's life.
Don't know about that first statement. I tend to read WAY too much and get labelled accordingly (anal, OCD, oil moron etc. ).

Other than what was written, no. Plenty of fleet service tests similar to this though, but they could be construed as apples to oranges (thats why we do UOAs on what WE drive). Fleet tests on 5qt., relatively low output engines can be comparible in some ways to our cases if viewed objectively. The most applicable of this is the formation of tribolayers in bearing surfaces that increase with age/use. Its pretty facinating stuff and I've just started getting in depth with it.

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Old 06-04-2009, 09:57 PM   #94
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Back this with some hard data and it may appear more convincing than a mere preference.
I don't change my oil and my engine don't blow. That's pretty hard evidence to me.



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How can you be sure? You may not be onboard with oil analysis, but here it is the only way to know for certain. It can also catch potential problems early before they cause something catastophic to happen.
Sometime we can take short cuts and leave the analysis to the experts. It should be apparent to all of you I am not someone who is easily convinced by anything or anyone, BMW engineers included. However based on my limited analysis of systems and designs on BMW cars, I am convinced people who make these are competent. Therefore I can safely accept their recommendations knowing that such recommendations are as competently made as the way they made their cars. So when BMW recommend 15k miles, I am happy to accept it as a good recommendation, and I would suggest people go by that.

On the other hand, little shops that like to say Nice create no confidence in me. Firstly they say Nice more often than necessary. Secondly their recommendations are arbitrary and random. Neither approach has a methodical approach that would instil confidence. So no, oil analysis by little shops is worthless to me. On the other hand if BMW engineering offers an oil analysis service, I would have no trouble recommending people to use that. Though, I would think it unnecessary for most people since BMW have already performed such analysis prior to their recommendation.

By the way I am still inclined to believe your oil analysis is produced through random number generation. It has nothing to do with your oil but everything to do with the little shop taking the money for making some arbitrary comments. I am quite sure if you send in the same oil on different occasions, you will get different results and comments.

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Old 06-04-2009, 10:24 PM   #95
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It should be apparent to all of you I am not someone who is easily convinced by anything or anyone, BMW engineers included.
So you must have done extensive research before arriving at your conclusions. Please share. But I only understand from numbers, and I don't give a $hit about simple reasoning, so play accordingly.

Also, if you think UOAs consist of random numbers, you need to provide the nature of the random number generators (i.e. seeds), so that we can predict what numbers the next UOA will consist of, and you'll have proven your point.

Not that hard, really.
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Old 06-04-2009, 10:36 PM   #96
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On the other hand if BMW engineering offers an oil analysis service, I would have no trouble recommending people to use that.
Good idea. That way, when the buyer's car gets to 15k miles, BMW can put some good looking numbers on an analysis as a perfect excuse to wait longer to change the oil. More money saved .
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Though, I would think it unnecessary for most people since BMW have already performed such analysis prior to their recommendation.
Oh really? Link please? I'd like to this analysis.
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Old 06-05-2009, 05:26 AM   #97
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Oh really? Link please? I'd like to this analysis.
BMW have all of their engine validation and life testing out on a web link.

You haven't read it?
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Old 06-05-2009, 07:02 AM   #98
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I will be changing my valve cover gasket in these few weeks. I will post pics of my beautiful, clean, and well lubed engine inner workings.

Enjoy the useless bickering guys. This oil debate has lost its value.
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Old 06-05-2009, 07:28 AM   #99
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Good idea. That way, when the buyer's car gets to 15k miles, BMW can put some good looking numbers on an analysis as a perfect excuse to wait longer to change the oil. More money saved .
BMW don't save a single penny whether I change at 1k mile or 45k mile. I don't see what you are getting at. It seems to me BMW would make more money having shorter intervals. More oil, filter, or service sales. As BMW want to reduce these kind of sales at their own detriment, I think their motivations are entirely noble trustworthy.
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Old 06-05-2009, 07:32 AM   #100
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BMW don't save a single penny whether I change at 1k mile or 45k mile. I don't see what you are getting at. It seems to me BMW would make more money having shorter intervals. More oil, filter, or service sales. As BMW want to reduce these kind of sales at their own detriment, I think their motivations are entirely noble trustworthy.
I guess you havent realized that BMW changes the oil for free on all cars under warranty. I guess that's only like 2 or 3 people though so it doesnt really matter...
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