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Gun Talk
Are you a gun fanatic as well? If so, you'll want to talk to other owners about what you own in this forum.

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Old 12-06-2014, 02:58 PM   #1
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Thinking of getting a 45 or 10mm. Convince me on why or why not

So I am a big proponent of 9mm. I love it. Accurate, soft recoil, easy follow up shots, cheap rounds. All my guns are 9mm except my deep carry P3AT. Now saying that, I have been thinking about getting a 45 or 10mm for the house/outdoor woods bear wants to eat me /shtf gun.

My logic is this, if I can get a 45 or 10mm full size heavier gun that kicks like a 9mm lighter subcompact would then why not. Bigger firepower but still getting around 10 shots.

What do you guys think? Would a full size 45 or 10 kick like a 9mm glock 26 subcompact or would they kick more?

I know I need to go shoot one in the end but just wanted to get your guys opinion on the matter. ( I have shot 45 before but its been a long while. Never shot a 10mm)
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Old 12-06-2014, 04:25 PM   #2
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Large .45 (1911,HK45' etc) shoot softer than g19...

10mm is a beast.
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Old 12-06-2014, 04:42 PM   #3
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10 mm ammo, especially the real stuff, isn't nearly as easy to find as .45. But in terms of performance, certainly a superior round IMO, which is a good thing if you're worried about large animals and bears
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Old 12-06-2014, 09:51 PM   #4
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If you're looking at a 1911 or a Glock, you don't have to worry about finding a gun in 10mm. If you want something else, your selection gets very limited for 10mm guns. There are guys who use the 10mm for wildlife defense in the woods. It actually offers decent protection against anything short of bear, moose and bison. Most guys I've talked to are running 200gr Hornady XTP loads for that purpose. I dropped a deer with a 200gr a number of years back with my G20C.
The .45ACP is actually pretty smooth to shoot in a full size platform. I loved shooting my Kimber 1911 (when it worked...but that's another story). For general purpose use, the .45ACP is a far better choice due to more plentiful ammunition and a wider selection of loads, and because there are a lot more options for pistols.

If you foresee needing any kind of protection against bear or moose, that's the point where neither cartridge would be appropriate and you'd want to start looking towards a .44 Rem Mag or heavier.
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Old 12-06-2014, 10:24 PM   #5
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Random question. What do you guys thing of the FN five seven despite ammo being harder to find than 45
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Old 12-06-2014, 11:10 PM   #6
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In terms of aesthetics, the grip is massive. If you don't have big hands, don't bother. In terms of shooting it, the general consensus is that it has light recoil and it's very accurate.

From a ballistics standpoint, the 5.7x28mm is ballistically identical to the .22WMR. It's a very overrated cartridge that was built for one singular purpose- for use by armor crewmembers and protection details to penetrate soft body armor with armor piercing ammunition up to 200m. Unfortunately, what the bullet does once it goes into the body is a lot more disappointing. The bullet either zips through like an FMJ or explodes like a varmint bullet and only penetrates about 3-5", which is not enough for a reliable lethal hit on any animal; be it four-legged or two-legged. If your purpose is for fun, it's a fun cartridge but an expensive gun. The Kel-Tec PMR30 would be a cheaper investment overall. If you want it for actual defensive purposes, anything beyond rabid prairie dogs and zombie squirrels are going to give you trouble.

Jacksonville, FL SWAT picked up some FN P90s for their team not long after the gun came out. In the period of time they had them, they had 27 officer-involved shootings. 5 involved the P90s and the other 22 were with ARs in 5.56. 21/22 OIS's with the ARs were lethal. In contrast, the 5 shootings with the P90s involved officers shooting suspects center mass as many as 20 times with the 5.7x28, and none of the shootings were lethal. One shooting even ended when the bad guy started begging them to stop shooting because it hurt. After the 5th OIS with the P90, they pulled them from service and sold them.
US SOCOM forces helped develop the .300BLK with 220gr subsonic loads to replace the HK MP7A1 that shoots the 4.6x30mm cartridge (ballistically similar to the 5.7mm) due to the poor performance of that category of "sub-caliber" loads.

Interesting sidebar:
Every couple years Special Operations Training Association - Midwest (SWAT association) comes to Minnesota for their annual training conference. About 6 years ago or so, they were in Minnesota up at Camp Ripley, which is a National Guard base and range in north central MN. One team in attendance was Edina SWAT, which is a very wealthy suburb of Minneapolis. Edina equips every squad car with an AR15, but their SWAT team leader got visited by the Good Idea Fairy and drank the FN P90 Kool-Aid. They wanted a round that wouldn't go through walls and kill an orphanage full of children and nuns 20 miles away, which in their head was what 5.56 did (it doesn't). Edina equipped the entire team with P90s. So one day during the SOTA conference, they went to the 1000m KD range and the instructor for the shoot put out some steel targets at ranges at 50yds, 100yds, and on out at intervals to around 400yds. Guys with ARs had no problems. The Edina guys were having difficulties hitting the 100yd steel, and when it did hit, they couldn't hear the "ping" from the impact. Even guys with HK MP5s in 9mm could hear their rounds striking at 100yds. The 9mm rounds were actually moving the plates more than the 5.7mm 28gr LE loads were.

When I was consulting with a multi-agancy metro SWAT team several years ago, I had to talk them out of the P90 because the Operational Penis Envy and "cool guy factor" made the P90 look good. I had to go to the FBI and IWBA to get the data to finally convince them how big of a mistake it would have been to get that weapon and cartridge. The FBI BRF and IWBA have compiled a lot of data on this cartridge, and none of it is favorable.
Just my $0.02, which is worth exactly that.
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Old 12-06-2014, 11:20 PM   #7
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Whenever I think of outdoor/bear gun, I think 10mm. I think it would be the harder to manage of the two.

I would see if you could rent a Glock 20 somewhere. My Glock 22 made .40 extremely manageable. I shot it more comfortably than some 9mm guns. I'm guessing the Glock 20 is probably a good shooter as well.

You'd also have the option of .40 conversion barrel if that strikes your fancy for any reason.
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Old 12-06-2014, 11:36 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Reedo302 View Post
Jacksonville, FL SWAT picked up some FN P90s for their team not long after the gun came out. In the period of time they had them, they had 27 officer-involved shootings. 5 involved the P90s and the other 22 were with ARs in 5.56. 21/22 OIS's with the ARs were lethal. In contrast, the 5 shootings with the P90s involved officers shooting suspects center mass as many as 20 times with the 5.7x28, and none of the shootings were lethal. One shooting even ended when the bad guy started begging them to stop shooting because it hurt. After the 5th OIS with the P90, they pulled them from service and sold them.
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Old 12-06-2014, 11:40 PM   #9
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Also, if this girl can shoot it with a piss poor grip and no eye protection, I'm sure you'll be just fine

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Old 12-06-2014, 11:41 PM   #10
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Whenever I think of outdoor/bear gun, I think 10mm. I think it would be the harder to manage of the two.

I would see if you could rent a Glock 20 somewhere. My Glock 22 made .40 extremely manageable. I shot it more comfortably than some 9mm guns. I'm guessing the Glock 20 is probably a good shooter as well.

You'd also have the option of .40 conversion barrel if that strikes your fancy for any reason.
My first .40 pistol was actually my G20C with a .40S&W conversion barrel. It worked flawlessly. Cheaper way to shoot the gun for sure.
If you get a 1911 in 10mm, those are extremely manageable and smooth.

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Yeah, I talked to a guy that was involved in that one. I thought he was joking at first, but it was verified.
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Old 12-06-2014, 11:44 PM   #11
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I love shooting my .45s. The only pistol calibers i have are 9mm and .45 and they shoot equally to me in terms of recoil. I have a couple of 1911s and an FN-X45 Tactical. The FN is currently my favorite pistol to shoot. It does look enormous, but it doesn't feel overly large in my hands, and i don't have giant hands. Plus mag capacity is 15 rounds.

David shot it, maybe he'll chime in on the grip size and shooting review. i'm clearly biased.
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Old 12-07-2014, 06:07 AM   #12
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I didn't know the 5.7 was that anemic. I just watched some gelatin tests and I guess you are right. I wanted to like it. 45 sounds like a better choice overall than 10 in terms or recoil, ammo price, and ammo avaliable. Definitely going to see if there is a range that rents the 10 and 45. The last time I shot a 45 it was out of a compact gun and I sucked at it, but that was back in the day when I thought girls had cooties.

And nice story about the Jacksonville SWAT, that's my hometown
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Old 12-07-2014, 06:12 AM   #13
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That story about jax SWAT is hilarious haha...can't believe I havent heard that myself from one of the dealers here.

Regarding the FNX, I really did like it. It shot like my USP, which is to say awesome, but had additional features and better ergo. Considering it was designed like a decade or more later, not surprising.

Reedo's info is accurate regarding both cartridges. Neither is really suited for bear, though obviously I prefer the 10mm over the .45 or nothing. There is a video of a guy taking a moose down w/a glock 29 I think while riding a snowmobile. YouTube it and I'm sure you can find it...I'm on my phone or I'd provide a link.

I have a glock 30 (.45) and a glock 29 (10mm) and ever though they're compacts, I really don't think they shot too hard honestly. Certainly not enough to bother me. The true hot 10mm loads are fun rounds to shoot haha.
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Old 12-07-2014, 09:06 AM   #14
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I love shooting my .45s. The only pistol calibers i have are 9mm and .45 and they shoot equally to me in terms of recoil. I have a couple of 1911s and an FN-X45 Tactical. The FN is currently my favorite pistol to shoot. It does look enormous, but it doesn't feel overly large in my hands, and i don't have giant hands. Plus mag capacity is 15 rounds.

David shot it, maybe he'll chime in on the grip size and shooting review. i'm clearly biased.
I've spent some time with the FNP-45 and echo what you're saying. It looks huge, but it doesn't feel as big int he hands (and I have medium sized hands). It was also very smooth and accurate, I felt. Not a bad choice in the non-1911 .45 space.
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Old 12-07-2014, 09:24 AM   #15
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My first handgun was a G21, I've still got it, and it's still my favorite handgun to shoot, over a 1911 and 226, among others. It's still the one that lives next to the bed.

I hear nothing but great things about the FNX, and I keep telling myself I'm going to get one, I just haven't pulled the trigger yet. After the M11 purchase, I'm probably not buying anything for a while, though.
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Old 12-07-2014, 01:37 PM   #16
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I didn't know the 5.7 was that anemic. I just watched some gelatin tests and I guess you are right. I wanted to like it. 45 sounds like a better choice overall than 10 in terms or recoil, ammo price, and ammo avaliable. Definitely going to see if there is a range that rents the 10 and 45. The last time I shot a 45 it was out of a compact gun and I sucked at it, but that was back in the day when I thought girls had cooties.
I think "subjective" would be a more accurate descriptor of the 5.7mm. The cartridge was designed to work with two specific bullets- the SS190 31gr AP-FMJ and the SS193 subsonic 55gr FMJ (for suppressed use). The primary intent was always with the SS190 AP ammo to penetrate soft armor. Where it has lost the main intent is where FN started to commercialize a purpose-built military SMG cartridge. Once more loads were developed for commercial and LE use, the cartridge started getting used outside of its capabilities. You can theoretically kill anyone with any bullet, but it's a matter of reliable predictability and circumstance.

The problem with the 5.7 is that its abilities are degraded when shot through a pistol. The bullets do not travel fast enough to fragment properly, and as such they zip through like a little .22 bullet. Realistically, this is more ideal than having rapid fragmentation with the P90 because fragmentation results in reduced penetration.

Here's an interesting video Tim from MAC did:





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And nice story about the Jacksonville SWAT, that's my hometown
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That story about jax SWAT is hilarious haha...can't believe I havent heard that myself from one of the dealers here.
I read a couple may have later died after the fact, but I haven't gotten confirmation on that. Nobody died immediately, and there was 0% immediate or rapid incapacitation (a "stop" of the threat). The reality is that all we care about is stopping the threat as fast as possible.
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Old 12-07-2014, 03:22 PM   #17
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That story about jax SWAT is hilarious haha...can't believe I havent heard that myself from one of the dealers here.

Regarding the FNX, I really did like it. It shot like my USP, which is to say awesome, but had additional features and better ergo. Considering it was designed like a decade or more later, not surprising.

Reedo's info is accurate regarding both cartridges. Neither is really suited for bear, though obviously I prefer the 10mm over the .45 or nothing. There is a video of a guy taking a moose down w/a glock 29 I think while riding a snowmobile. YouTube it and I'm sure you can find it...I'm on my phone or I'd provide a link.

I have a glock 30 (.45) and a glock 29 (10mm) and ever though they're compacts, I really don't think they shot too hard honestly. Certainly not enough to bother me. The true hot 10mm loads are fun rounds to shoot haha.
Here it is:

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Old 12-07-2014, 03:32 PM   #18
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My first handgun was a G21, I've still got it, and it's still my favorite handgun to shoot, over a 1911 and 226, among others. It's still the one that lives next to the bed.

I hear nothing but great things about the FNX, and I keep telling myself I'm going to get one, I just haven't pulled the trigger yet. After the M11 purchase, I'm probably not buying anything for a while, though.
My first handgun was a G22. I just recently traded it (last week). I was sad to see it go and it was still the gun I fired the best. I got rid of it because it was the only gun I had in .40 and I'm really trying to consolidate calibers. I'm have some other much nicer guns now but it was a really great gun. I'll probably end up with a G17 or 34 down the road.

Below is a pic of what I picked up in the trade. Stainless Ruger Single Six.
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Old 12-07-2014, 04:55 PM   #19
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My first handgun was a G22. I just recently traded it (last week). I was sad to see it go and it was still the gun I fired the best. I got rid of it because it was the only gun I had in .40 and I'm really trying to consolidate calibers. I'm have some other much nicer guns now but it was a really great gun. I'll probably end up with a G17 or 34 down the road.

Below is a pic of what I picked up in the trade. Stainless Ruger Single Six.
I did the same thing recently. Sold my first hand gun a G23. I was very accurate with that pistol and was sad, but like you wanted to considerate calibers. I ended up buying a G19 Gen4 the next day. No surprise, i shoot the G19 just as well as the G23. What was a surprise was how poorly i shot the G22 for the short time i owned one.

I thought it was because the G22 was a full size frame which made me not even consider the FNX-45. I was renting a bunch of 9mm and .45 variant Sigs and hadn't fallen in love with anything. Guy behind the counter talked me into shooting the FNX-45. Since it didn't cost any more to do so, i did. After 10 rounds i had made my decision to get it. They didn't have one for sale, so i was trying to get them to sell me the range rental. I would have paid full price for it, that's how much i liked it. Lucky for me, the gun show was in town and there were a few dealers who had the tactical model and i took one home.

Kind of a funny day. Went to the range in the morning. Shot about 6 rental pistols. Bought the G19. Left the range and went to the gun show. Bought the FNX-45 tactical. Left the gun show and went back to the range to shoot both. Went home and ordered a RMR for the FNX; which i'm liking more the more i shoot with it.
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Old 12-08-2014, 10:35 AM   #20
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Moose with a 10mm... No pads, no helmet, just balls.
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