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Old 03-10-2016, 10:24 PM   #1
IcyTurtle
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Need help with a no start w/crank issue

Hello everyone need help with this elusive problem I've had and can't seem to find the answer(yes I'm actively reading this forums, loads of help btw )
I have a 2001 325i with 148,xxx on the clock. I bought the car about a year ago and it's been a dream driving it. I've had a few spur attic issue when starting it where it'll take to crank to start it or just a slightly longer one, but that issue only appears every once in a while.
Up into a month a go the car ran fine then all of a sudden it wouldn't start, mind you I changed the fuel pump(Vdo brand)about1k miles ago. It left me stranded at work . So after towing it home I sprayed starting fluid and it starts up but does. So I changed out the fuel filter/regulator with a new one and checked all the related fuses and they all looked good. Realized that the fuel relay was bad because the pump wouldn't turn on and it had no power on one side, so I switched that out. It is still not turning over and I need help any advice will help, I'm starting school soon and this is my only car
P.s I also have had the battery changed and I'm using a Valet key since purchase, so I'm fairly certain those aren't the issues
Thanks in advance!!!
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Old 03-10-2016, 10:30 PM   #2
jfoj
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Swap the horn and fuel pump relay and see what happens.

Ignition switch is another problem area to consider.
__________________
Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 03-10-2016, 10:38 PM   #3
IcyTurtle
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I,ve already purchased and install a new Fuel pump relay. Since installed the fuel pump turns on when the car is in 3rd position. Before it replaced the pump wouldn't send gas
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Old 03-10-2016, 10:38 PM   #4
IcyTurtle
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Ignition switch?
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Old 03-10-2016, 11:22 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IcyTurtle View Post
Ignition switch?
You need to diagnose it and not just throw parts at it.


.
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Old 03-11-2016, 03:32 AM   #6
hatetolovee46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IcyTurtle View Post
Hello everyone need help with this elusive problem I've had and can't seem to find the answer(yes I'm actively reading this forums, loads of help btw )
I have a 2001 325i with 148,xxx on the clock. I bought the car about a year ago and it's been a dream driving it. I've had a few spur attic issue when starting it where it'll take to crank to start it or just a slightly longer one, but that issue only appears every once in a while.
Up into a month a go the car ran fine then all of a sudden it wouldn't start, mind you I changed the fuel pump(Vdo brand)about1k miles ago. It left me stranded at work . So after towing it home I sprayed starting fluid and it starts up but does. So I changed out the fuel filter/regulator with a new one and checked all the related fuses and they all looked good. Realized that the fuel relay was bad because the pump wouldn't turn on and it had no power on one side, so I switched that out. It is still not turning over and I need help any advice will help, I'm starting school soon and this is my only car
P.s I also have had the battery changed and I'm using a Valet key since purchase, so I'm fairly certain those aren't the issues
Thanks in advance!!!
You need to use correct terminology first
OP: "Need help with a no start w/crank issue"
OP: "It is still not turning over and I need help any advice will help"

Is it turning over(cranking) or not? Since you said it started up with starter fluid I'm going to interpret that as you meant it is still not igniting but is turning over(Starter is turning engine over, but car does not start).

4 things are required for a gasoline internal combustion engine so you are missing one of the 4 things

Compression
Fuel
Spark
Air

Since the car starts with starter fluid and dies after it is not going to be spark so you can rule that out for now. Of the three options left fuel air and compression fuel is statistically the most likely culprit since you were just mucking with the fuel system and had intermittent problems with this before(compression would not be intermittent, air/vacum unlikely to be intermittent).

To verify fuel is indeed the component missing buy a fuel pressure guage tester(20-30$) or take one out for free(refundable deposit) at autozone and check the fuel pressure on the fuel rail in engine bay. If you check it while attemping to start car be advised of a safety hazard as fuel can spray from the rail, never check fuel psi when car is really hot imo if it hit exhaust manifold somehow it would ignite.

Idk what the fuel pressure should be use google but you'll likely read zero.

Last edited by hatetolovee46; 03-11-2016 at 04:05 AM.
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Old 03-11-2016, 03:35 AM   #7
hatetolovee46
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Originally Posted by jfoj View Post
Swap the horn and fuel pump relay and see what happens.

Ignition switch is another problem area to consider.
jfoj's bad answer can be attributed to your lack of information and conflicting information you gave, I presume jfoj thought the car was not turning over or cranking, as if he did i believe he would know the ignitions switch is good.

I think the only way you can have a bad ignition switch and it still cranks is if the crank wire on switch is good but run wire bad, and in that case i think the ECU will not turn on which would not send a signal to your starter to turn over anyway. So yea ignition switch is not it and think jfojs reply was because of your conflicting information.

Last edited by hatetolovee46; 03-11-2016 at 03:55 AM.
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Old 03-11-2016, 03:37 AM   #8
hatetolovee46
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Why did you change the battery. Why did you change the fuel pump.
90% of "bad" fuel pumps that get replaced are actually bad connections to the fuel pumps and the mechanic doesnt care
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Old 03-11-2016, 03:53 AM   #9
hatetolovee46
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If fuel pressure is indeed found to be low or absent:

Check your fuel pump fuse, which will be good because problem was intermittent but ensure anyway.
Once you have found and checked fuel pump fuse, take a multimeter(20$ at autozone) and measure voltage from the test pin on fuse to chasis ground(any bare metal connected to car chasis, unpainted bolt in door jam for example) while the car is attempting to start (Crank position of ignition switch(key))

Do you see 12v on fuel pump fuse relative to ground? You should, because if no problem is upstream of fuse(wire from fuse panel to ignition switch or ignition switch itself has a bad auxillary (run) position wire but that would likely cause all auxillary to fail(dash and everything wouldn't come up) so it would not make sense that you dont have 12v there.

it should have 12v during auxiallary or "run"(where key sits while your driving) actually as well

Once you have ensure you have 12v on the fuel pump fuse and fuse is good, and have verified there is no fuel pressure on rail in engine bay, you can then start to look at fuel pump.

Your fuel pumps and fuel pump wire harness can be accessed by removing rear seat, and then cover plates over them. inspect cables for fray/corrosion.

I dont have the fp diagram here with me but Imagine it either has a 12v supply and a ground wire only and provides constant fuel pressure when powered or that it has a 12v power supply, a ground wire, and a solenoid severing the connection controlled by a signal wire.(I honestly dont know and i'm too lazy too look for you). But these should be in a wire harness connected to fuel pump. Brown is ground.

At the 12v supply input do you measure 12v to ground when car is in crank position?(run position should work too so try that first, crank position with assistant to ensure)
If yes it is likely either your fuel pump, ground to fuel pump or any signal wires that control it(although i presume if its getting 12v it supposed to be on take a pic of wire harness if you access or search forums here prob has stuff available

At the ground output do you measure 0v to ground when in run or crank position?
if you have 12v on input wire and while this voltage is there measure more than .5v from ground output wire to chasis ground you have a bad ground wire, it should be 0v from ground output wire to ground while the fp has a 12v input on, .1-.5v from gound wire output to ground mean weak ground but prob okay. if you take these measurements without 12v input you will just read 0 everytime.

If it has a signal wire does that hit 12v to ground when you have assistant turn key to crank position?

In general
1) Don't stress, logic is important in decisions emotion is toilet paper
2) Be clear, and concise about the problem
3) Inform yourself
4) Stop throwing parts and money at problems hoping it works
5) Once diagnosis is fully complete, then purchase and replace part

Last edited by hatetolovee46; 03-11-2016 at 04:41 AM.
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Old 03-11-2016, 03:57 AM   #10
hatetolovee46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IcyTurtle View Post
Ignition switch?
I hope this was questioning the advice as you should in this case because its not the switch if car is indeed cranking, if car is not turning over at all or not cranking then let us know

And i hope this was not you questioning what an ignition switch was, as you could have easily googled that
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Old 03-11-2016, 04:02 AM   #11
hatetolovee46
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also if you are under half a tank but over empty put more gas in the car, if it starts up it is the secondary fuel pump(or crossover fuel pump)

The fuel tank straddles the drive shaft. A secondary pump moves gas over to main side, main fuel pump then sends it to engine, fuel reading on dash is average of the two levels. If secondary fuel pump fails its possible to run out of gas when reading is above empty(fuel on secondary side is there but not being sent to main side)
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Old 03-11-2016, 04:02 AM   #12
hatetolovee46
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also if you are under half a tank but over empty put more gas in the car, if it starts up it is the secondary fuel pump(or crossover fuel pump)

The fuel tank straddles the drive shaft. A secondary pump moves gas over to main side, main fuel pump then sends it to engine, fuel reading on dash is average of the two levels. If secondary fuel pump fails its possible to run out of gas when reading is above empty(fuel on secondary side is there but not being sent to main side)
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Old 03-11-2016, 07:16 AM   #13
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Oh my, I am not sure where to start here.

I read and respond to SO many threads on this and other forums at times things start to run together and often I just scan the post depending on what I am up to.

If I missed that the fuel pump relay was replaced, I missed it. I only have so many hours in the day.

A few comments.

1. The ignition switches are KNOWN problem areas on these cars, they can cause a crank, no start situation. The ignition switch is something that should probably be changed at a preventative measure on most of these cars after 10-14 years due to their high intermittent failure rate.

2. Fuel pump failures on these cars is NOT due to 90% bad connections. It is 97% due to the brushes wearing out. 2% fuel pump relay problen and 1% BAD connections is usually due to rodents nesting on top of the tank and chewing the wiring. EVERY E46 should have a replacement fuel pump installed at this point in their life.

3. The siphon/passive/sucking jet pump in the drivers/left side of the fuel tank RARELY has problems. Usually only if someone has disturbed it. This is a siphon pump with NO moving parts. I have only heard of maybe 2 ever replaced and they were probably replaced for no reason. The Hidden OBC Menu can be used to monitor in take fuel levels, however, I really doubt the problem is due to the siphon/passive/sucking jet pump problem.

4. The OP does need to do a bit more diagnostic work, needs to figure out if this is 100% a fuel problem or something else. Could be anything from a problem EWS system or bad key, YES the EWS and key can and will fail in a way the engine will crank, but not start. This is not the way the EWS is supposed to function, but we have seen bad keys and EWS problems with a crank, no start situation. Could be a crank or intake cam sensor as well.

Suggest the OP read this thread - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=1011677
__________________
Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 03-11-2016, 07:24 AM   #14
markusmarkus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWCaptain View Post
You need to diagnose it and not just throw parts at it.





.

This!
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Old 03-11-2016, 07:28 AM   #15
markusmarkus
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If the car starts when starting fluid is sprayed into the engine then the problem is fuel. Plain and simple. OP, I know you replaced the fuel pump and the relay but did you change the fuel filter? A clogged filter will greatly reduce fuel flow! Also, did you check the fuel pressure at the fuel rail. It needs to be at least 45psi, though others say 50psi.
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Old 03-11-2016, 07:31 AM   #16
jfoj
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BMW E46 Fuel Pressure Specs Per Bentley

All engines except the S54 3.2L M3 - Fuel pressure 3.5 +/- 0.2 bar or 50.76 +/- 2.9 PSI
Residual fuel pressure after 20 minutes - Fuel pressure >3 bar or >43.51 PSI

Fuel Volume Specs
All engines 1.12 liter (1.16 qt) for 30 seconds at 12 Volts or while crank
__________________
Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 03-11-2016, 08:53 AM   #17
hatetolovee46
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I respect jfoj, but i strongly disagree with him

1) There is no reason to replace ignition switch unless it fails, most go life of car. If you want to pay money and time for peace of mind then go for it.

2) there is no reason to replace your fuel pump if its not broke, would i like to replace my starter? Power steering pump? Alternator? Fuel pump? Ignition switch? Radiator? Water pump? Ac compressor? All out of preventative maintance? Sure if i had 2k to blow, or had an m otherwise replace what breaks or is worn out only imo

3) My secondary fuel pump did failed. It also has a wireharness to both sides of fuel tanks if you look under your rear seat

4) my main fuel pump died i was quoted 440$, took it home it was the harness connection(why would you replace it without verifying signals on harness first anyway?)
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Old 03-11-2016, 09:10 AM   #18
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Everyone has an opinion, but I am basing my comments on both first hand experience and history of failures on these cars.
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 03-15-2016, 12:05 AM   #19
IcyTurtle
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So quick question guys, would I be able to check my fuel pressure even though the engine doesn't receive it.
I replaced the fuel pump and fuel filter because the fuel pump was failing I.e cars fuel light would come on when I'm barely under 1/4 tank. Thanks to the forum I realized it was a failing tank filter was done shortly after. I had a friend come over with a multimeter and he showed me the the terminal at the fuel pump was receiving power on one side but dead on the other, so after replacing the relay it had power on both sides and the fuel pump now whirls in the 3rd position. I sprayed starter fluid again and the engine turns over but still died shortly. And the only codes my car is throwing is for the camshaft sensors.
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Old 03-15-2016, 07:22 AM   #20
hatetolovee46
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Jfoj and i already answered, he has more patience than I, you dont know engine is not recieving until you read pressure... you suspect it is not recieving until you read preasurw or find fault...
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