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General E46 Forum
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Old 03-15-2010, 07:16 PM   #41
Hartman
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Originally Posted by Tangent_ View Post
My 330i has 147,000 miles on it and the springs have shown at least no noticeable signs of having broken. After reading this thread I think I'll eyeball them though. My Camaro broke a rear spring at about the 180,000 mile mark.

I wonder what the spring failure rates are related to if the local roads get salted...
My car has 147k. You may want to take a peek at yours

And to respond, springs are not a wear item, no I will not accept this as "normal", specially on a so-called luxury brand that is supposed to be of the utmost quality (wow we've really been duped on that one eh, lol). There is NO EXCUSE WHAT SO EVER FOR A SPRING TO BREAK UNDER NORMAL DRIVING CONDITIONS. I don't care if your friend's uncle's buddy's cousin Jimbob once saw a coil spring break on his Delorean, there is no excuse for this type of failure and it points to outright shoddy use of materials.
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Old 03-15-2010, 09:02 PM   #42
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My car has 147k. You may want to take a peek at yours

And to respond, springs are not a wear item, no I will not accept this as "normal", specially on a so-called luxury brand that is supposed to be of the utmost quality (wow we've really been duped on that one eh, lol). There is NO EXCUSE WHAT SO EVER FOR A SPRING TO BREAK UNDER NORMAL DRIVING CONDITIONS. I don't care if your friend's uncle's buddy's cousin Jimbob once saw a coil spring break on his Delorean, there is no excuse for this type of failure and it points to outright shoddy use of materials.
You really are crazy!
To tell you the truth , BMW never even intended to make E46 last more then 120k miles at most (thats their strategy, as they are a EURO based company, dont want to go into details )
If a spring is not a wear item then what is it? Just answer what category item spring is, dont be a smartass and bullcrap all over.
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Old 03-15-2010, 09:14 PM   #43
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My car has 147k. You may want to take a peek at yours

And to respond, springs are not a wear item, no I will not accept this as "normal", specially on a so-called luxury brand that is supposed to be of the utmost quality (wow we've really been duped on that one eh, lol). There is NO EXCUSE WHAT SO EVER FOR A SPRING TO BREAK UNDER NORMAL DRIVING CONDITIONS. I don't care if your friend's uncle's buddy's cousin Jimbob once saw a coil spring break on his Delorean, there is no excuse for this type of failure and it points to outright shoddy use of materials.
Maybe BMW needs to hire Willie Wonka to design their parts. He did make the EVERLASTING GOBSTOPPER!!!
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Old 03-15-2010, 09:39 PM   #44
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You really are crazy!
To tell you the truth , BMW never even intended to make E46 last more then 120k miles at most (thats their strategy, as they are a EURO based company, dont want to go into details )
If a spring is not a wear item then what is it? Just answer what category item spring is, dont be a smartass and bullcrap all over.
So if what you say is true, every BMW owner should gladly accept that there BMWs will begin to fall apart at 120k.

And I would put springs in a category with many other parts of the suspension that should not just fail. Like the actual metal control arms. The actual subframe that mounts to the body. Those are things that should not have to be replaced. To me this is no different than a control arm snapping in half at random. Guess if that happened, it too would be classified as a "wear item?"

Move along BMW apologists.
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Old 03-15-2010, 09:41 PM   #45
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To tell you the truth , BMW never even intended to make E46 last more then 120k miles at most (thats their strategy, as they are a EURO based company, dont want to go into details )
That's for sure--it surely explains all that plastic!
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Old 03-15-2010, 09:43 PM   #46
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that's for sure--it surely explains all that plastic!
don't ask questions just replace it and move on.
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Old 03-15-2010, 10:44 PM   #47
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I assume you have all heard of 'spring break'....well it is March and now you know where the term comes from.
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Old 03-16-2010, 01:04 AM   #48
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Do you actually expect a moving piece of metal to never fail?
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Old 03-16-2010, 07:07 PM   #49
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Do you actually expect a moving piece of metal to never fail?
So every single metal item on a car that "moves" is expected to fail?

Move along apologists.
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Old 03-16-2010, 07:10 PM   #50
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My car has 147k. You may want to take a peek at yours

And to respond, springs are not a wear item, no I will not accept this as "normal", specially on a so-called luxury brand that is supposed to be of the utmost quality (wow we've really been duped on that one eh, lol). There is NO EXCUSE WHAT SO EVER FOR A SPRING TO BREAK UNDER NORMAL DRIVING CONDITIONS. I don't care if your friend's uncle's buddy's cousin Jimbob once saw a coil spring break on his Delorean, there is no excuse for this type of failure and it points to outright shoddy use of materials.
Go ahead... email BMW.


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then don't call me bro, cause you're obviously not chill, bro.
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Old 03-16-2010, 07:50 PM   #51
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Please post the E-mail you send to BMW telling them that their springs should never fail.
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Old 03-16-2010, 07:52 PM   #52
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Please post the E-mail you send to BMW telling them that their springs should never fail.
I'm firing up the microwave....

Quote:
I bought my car with a broken rear spring (yes, seller made me aware). Instead of PMSing all over BMW NA and getting nowhere, my solution was H&R Race Springs. It was quite simple actually.
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then don't call me bro, cause you're obviously not chill, bro.

Last edited by DCJodon; 03-16-2010 at 07:55 PM.
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Old 03-16-2010, 08:39 PM   #53
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I'm firing up the microwave....



I bought my car with a broken rear spring (yes, seller made me aware). Instead of PMSing all over BMW NA and getting nowhere, my solution was H&R Race Springs. It was quite simple actually.
The E-mail request was for the OP, not you.
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Old 03-16-2010, 08:41 PM   #54
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This happens to cars in general, not just BMW. Happened to my friend's old ford pickup not long ago. Same thing.

Spring steel is very susceptible to corrosion, and is very brittle. It's also very hard to weatherproof something that is constantly being stretched and compressed, and constantly blasted with water, rocks, and salt.

If BMW offered some titanium springs so that you wouldn't ever have to worry about this, I doubt many people on here would have paid the extra money.
I wouldn't buy titanium springs though, since they have a finite fatigue life
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Old 03-16-2010, 09:41 PM   #55
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The E-mail request was for the OP, not you.
I know that?

Maybe you're not reading my post correctly.
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Old 03-17-2010, 12:29 AM   #56
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I wouldn't buy titanium springs though, since they have a finite fatigue life
False. Depends on whether you surpass the fatigue limit or not. If you don't pass the fatigue limit, there is no damage done, you mentioned this and I looked into it, remember patty? In general, commonly used titanium alloys like Grade 5 and Grade 9 have a higher fatigue strength than chromoly/4000 series steels.
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Old 03-17-2010, 03:03 AM   #57
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False. Depends on whether you surpass the fatigue limit or not. If you don't pass the fatigue limit, there is no damage done, you mentioned this and I looked into it, remember patty? In general, commonly used titanium alloys like Grade 5 and Grade 9 have a higher fatigue strength than chromoly/4000 series steels.
*sigh* You're making me quote my text book now...


"For steel and iron, the Strength-Life (S-N) diagram becomes horizontal at some point. The strength at this point is called the endurance limit and occurs betwen 10^6 and 10^7 cycles... for nonferrous materials [like aluminum and titanium] that do not exhibit an endurance limit, a fatigue strength at a specific number of cycles is given."

Basically, anything but steel will fail after a certain number of cycles, no matter how low the stress is. The fatigue strength is given usually at 10^7 or 10^8 cycles (10 to 100 million), so failure is not really an issue since it will likely never see that many cycles.

Who knows how many cycles the spring on a car sees, it all depends on the roads. Of course you have to factor in stress concentrations and endurance limit modifying factors - likely corrosion or just a bad design in this case.

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Old 03-17-2010, 03:32 AM   #58
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*sigh* You're making me quote my text book now...


"For steel and iron, the Strength-Life (S-N) diagram becomes horizontal at some point. The strength at this point is called the endurance limit and occurs betwen 10^6 and 10^7 cycles... for nonferrous materials [like aluminum and titanium] that do not exhibit an endurance limit, a fatigue strength at a specific number of cycles is given."

Basically, anything but steel will fail after a certain number of cycles, no matter how low the stress is. The fatigue strength is given usually at 10^7 or 10^8 cycles (10 to 100 million), so failure is not really an issue since it will likely never see that many cycles.

Who knows how many cycles the spring on a car sees, it all depends on the roads. Of course you have to factor in stress concentrations and endurance limit modifying factors - likely corrosion or just a bad design in this case.

Bout time we had a good debate patty!

I've got a few sources stating that titanium also has a relatively defined endurance limit, like steel.

Source 1: http://www.engrasp.com/doc/etb/mod/f...life_help.html

Quote:
Endurance Limit

Certain materials have a fatigue limit or endurance limit which represents a stress level below which the material does not fail and can be cycled infinitely. If the applied stress level is below the endurance limit of the material, the structure is said to have an infinite life. This is characteristic of steel and titanium in benign environmental conditions. A typical S-N curve corresponding to this type of material is shown Curve A in Figure 1.
Source 2 (also has links to other sources stating endurance limits don't actually exist): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue...ote-Askeland-4
Quote:
Fatigue limit, endurance limit, and fatigue strength are all expressions used to describe a property of materials: the amplitude (or range) of cyclic stress that can be applied to the material without causing fatigue failure.[1] Ferrous alloys and titanium alloys [2] have a distinct limit, an amplitude below which there appears to be no number of cycles that will cause failure. Other structural metals such as aluminium and copper, do not have a distinct limit and will eventually fail even from small stress amplitudes. In these cases, a number of cycles (usually 107) is chosen to represent the fatigue life of the material.
Source 3 (cycling related): http://www.ibiscycles.com/tech/materials_101/4/

Quote:
Fatigue Strength
The fatigue strength is another property where titanium performs beautifully (By now, you may be asking: "Is he ever going to say anything bad about titanium?" ). As explained in the previous installments, there is not a definitive measurement of fatigue strength that will tell us how the material will last in a bicycle frame. Bicycles are subjected to forces of varying amounts in a random, cyclic fashion. As long as these loads are kept below a certain level, titanium and steel both have thresholds below which they will never fail. Almost none of the aluminum (including the metal matrix composites), magnesium and beryllium used in bicycle fabrication has a defined endurance limit, so you need to design around it, as was explained last time.
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Old 03-17-2010, 03:46 AM   #59
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I don't trust those sources. Wikipedia? C'mon... and even it references some UK site. We all know the British don't know what they're talking about (Aston Martin ). And Ibis Cycles? They aren't biased at all... considering they sell titanium springs.

/sarcasm

But yeah, I'm still not convinced really.
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Old 03-17-2010, 03:56 AM   #60
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I don't trust those sources. Wikipedia? C'mon... and even it references some UK site. We all know the British don't know what they're talking about (Aston Martin ). And Ibis Cycles? They aren't biased at all... considering they sell titanium springs.

/sarcasm

But yeah, I'm still not convinced really.
I'm in the boat of believing no true endurance limit exists, and some materials just last longer and are better suited for the job than others.

*now miles goes off on tangent of wondering why more cars don't use air springs...*
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