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Old 10-21-2016, 06:27 PM   #1
hibeemer
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Location: Fresno Ca.
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My Ride: 2002 330i
P0174 only. I need an educated guess

Before we go into details I have to say that I do not have an android phone nor an old windows xp laptop and I won't be spending money on either. I don't need either one. I work at a desk all day on a computer in my home and when my 10 hour day is done, the last thing I want to see is a screen of any kind. Fair enough? On to the problem.

We are talking about an 01-2002 built 330i with an automatic.

Between 400 and 1500 miles I get a cel and it is usually P0174 System too Lean (Bank 2). One time and one time only it was P0174 and P0171. The only time I had both I discovered I had left the intake boot clamp at the MAF loose. It was in position but the clamp was loose. I was able to pull it off with a little resistance. After I tightened the clamp, it is back to setting a P0174 only. I have smoke tested it three times. Once using the "glove method" and twice by removing the DISA with a disc I made from 1/4" thick plexiglass and the intake boot plugged where attaches to the MAF. I have tested the brake booster for leaks by removing the hose and valve at the booster and applying vacuum with a hand pump. I can pull 25 hg without any loss in 20 minutes. I have checked the intake manifold vacuum through the booster hose and it shows 22 hg at idle. The car has 162k on it and has had the following work in the over the 5k miles. All parts are oem or Genuine BMW purchased from FCP Euro.

VCG. Leaks.
Complete new CCV. Hoses were brittle and cracked. Started using oil after the VCG change.
DISA. Wouldn't hold vacuum.
OFHG. Leaks.
Throttle body gasket. Removed to clean.
Idle valve grommet. Removed to clean.
Intake manifold gaskets. Removed to facilitate water tube replacement.

It runs as strong as it ever did and the fuel consumption is back to what it was when it was new. 22 to 23 city/frwy combined and 28 to 31 on long trips. (Figured with a pencil). It has not used any oil in over 2,500 mi since all of the work above was done. It never used oil until the VCC change and it suddenly started using 1 liter in 700 to 1000 miles depending on the type of driving when the VCC was changed. After the CCV change there are no leaks to be found anywhere on the engine or anywhere else for that matter.

To sum it up, I am certain that there are no vacuum leaks. Since I am not going to be able to check my 02 or MAF function and post a file, does anyone care to make an educated guess? I'm thinking precat 02 sensor before MAF because it is only bank 2.

Last edited by hibeemer; 10-21-2016 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 10-21-2016, 06:37 PM   #2
jfoj
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Pre-cat O2 sensors will not resolve a Lean condition. The Pre-cat O2 sensors probably are original and should be replaced, but if the O2 sensors can detect a Lean condition they are working reasonably well.

How are you getting OBDII codes?? Really need to see Freeze Frame data.

You have no Android, Kindle or iPhone/iPad?? No family members or friends that have any of these? $30 or less will get you an OBDII App and Interface. You live in the great country of California and own a car, you REALLY need a decent OBDII tool so you can be prepared for SMOG tests and not at everyone's mercy. Even for around $50 you can get a decent stand along OBDII tool.

You can throw parts at the car, if you are sure there are no vacuum leaks, then the other main things can cause Lean codes are a weak/soft fuel pump, an under reporting MAF that is either just old and degraded or a cheap Asian counterfeit that does not report properly.
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

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Old 10-21-2016, 06:59 PM   #3
BMWCaptain
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By guess is your intake boot.
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Old 10-21-2016, 07:17 PM   #4
tks
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Educated guess is its the thermometer
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Old 10-21-2016, 07:34 PM   #5
05SMG
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Educated guess? 1) intake boots 2) soft fuel pump
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Old 10-21-2016, 07:39 PM   #6
jfoj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hibeemer View Post
I have smoke tested it three times. Once using the "glove method" and twice by removing the DISA with a disc I made from 1/4" thick plexiglass and the intake boot plugged where attaches to the MAF.

To sum it up, I am certain that there are no vacuum leaks.
So I think if the engine has been smoke tested 3 times, the intake boots are not likely a problem!
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 10-21-2016, 08:33 PM   #7
bdelagu
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Fuel filter or icv if the smoke test was clear
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Old 10-21-2016, 08:40 PM   #8
hibeemer
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Had my independant do a complete check and the fuel pump is not the problem. The pump and the filter have less than 5k miles. He also said that the MAF and 02's are all within spec and that he couldn't see any vacuum leaks. The lower boot is new and the upper is in good shape even though it is the original. His smoke machine puts out heavier and twice the volume of smoke as mine. He also gets the same obd codes as my simple Actron reader does. The problem with spending money on another way to go about this is simply because I've only needed the one I have once. The only other time this set a code in it's entire history is when the fuel pump started to fail last year. My hope is to get past this little problem and not have another piece of equipment sitting on the shelf for 10 years.

It isn't always easy to anticipate all of the questions someone may have and I certainly don't want to put anyone out with my problem. The point is that it a been looked at a very good independent and he his a little stumped by this one too. I appreciate anyones efforts in this matter and if you look at my history, I am not one to willy nilly ask a bunch questions that I can look up myself.

Thanks jfoi for considering this problem. I would appreciate hearing from you of you have any new thoughts. I am not one to throw parts at something. All of the recent work that has been done was absolutely necessary.

Last edited by hibeemer; 10-21-2016 at 10:21 PM.
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Old 10-21-2016, 08:59 PM   #9
All2kool
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hibeemer View Post
...I get a cel and it is usually P0174 System too Lean (Bank 2). One time and one time only it was P0174 and P0171.
I had the P0171/0174 randomly occurring as well. Advice I received here indicated replacing the Intake Boots was in order. I replaced the first one off the MAF and the result was just one of the two codes occurring, again, randomly. Replaced the DISA O-Ring, no change. Replaced the Lower Intake Boot and installed an inexpensive EBay MAF and have never seen a code since (several hundred miles now). My MAF was original to the car as evidenced by the white sticker still on it. I can't say what cured my codes but I'm not putting the 134k mile MAF back on to find out.

If your Intake Boots are hard and not pliable, just replace them. Both are less than $50 and although the Lower Intake Boot can be a PITA to change, it can develop cracks that contribute to a vacuum leak. My Intake Boots were original to the car as evidenced by the Clamp on the Lower Boot being pointed down, as if it was installed before the engine went into the car.

I purchased these for the job and without them, I can't see how I could have gotten the Lower Intake Boot off and the new one on:

Angled 1/4 Ratchet
Flexible Extensions
1/4 Drive Socket Set

Good luck.

P.S. I never did a smoke test so I can't say I had a vacuum leak. I can't say I didn't either.

Last edited by All2kool; 10-23-2016 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 10-21-2016, 09:08 PM   #10
jfoj
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Sorry to say, most Actron tools are overpriced and somewhat garbage IMHO. I hate the fact that the foolish parts stores are in bed with Actron.

All I need to see is Freeze Frame data to start with. I need to know if the Lean codes are at idle or while cruising. I would also like to see warm idle Fuel Trim values.

No disrespect to your Indy, but the data is there, it just needs to be reviewed. My guess is if the fuel pump and filter are recent, there are no vacuum leaks, then the MAF may be the culprit. BUT I hate to tell people to replace a MAF without a good reason and having solid data to back up my claim. You will also not be able to buy a $50 MAF from the parts store and ebay to fix the problem. You will need to spend close to $300 to get a quality Siemens/VDO MAF from a reliable source that does not have counterfeits.

If you search my user name, you may have already do this, you will see that there are few fuel system management problems that cannot be resolved. I do not post graphs anymore because I have no attachment space left. I provided some members graphs and data that they posted in their threads.

Again, if you have anyone that has a tablet you can borrow, for only the cost of the App, less than $10 and an interface, less than $20 you have a real tool that will gather data.

Or you can spend $49 and get this stand along Launch CReader VI which is a very good stand along tool with a color screen and on tool graphing. The on tool graphing in not the best, but no on tool graphing is. I have had people take pictures of the graphs or videos so they could convey the graphs.

OBDFusion allows the Logs to be exported via .CSV files so it can all be worked externally which is really the best way.

You might as well be self sufficient and have a decent OBDII tool, everyone with a 1996 and newer vehicle should have one. They should hand out OBDII tools when you get your drivers license these days!
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 11-23-2016, 05:34 PM   #11
All2kool
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Quote:
Originally Posted by All2kool View Post
Replaced the Lower Intake Boot and installed an inexpensive EBay MAF and have never seen a code since (several hundred miles now). My MAF was original to the car as evidenced by the white sticker still on it. I can't say what cured my codes but I'm not putting the 134k mile MAF back on to find out.
So, just for kicks, I put my original MAF back on and less than 50 miles later, the P0171/0174 returned. I drove more than 500 miles with a cheap EBay MAF and no SES, less than 50 on the original and SES.
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Old 11-23-2016, 05:58 PM   #12
texaslonghorn
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I had this same problem with my 04 325Ci and did all the same stuff you mentioned. To make a long and boring story short, it was the MAF. If you are going to replace it, make sure you get the right one. The older version has 3 wires in the harness and the newer one has 5 wires.
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Old 11-23-2016, 11:16 PM   #13
Mariner05
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Not totally to topic - but I want to commend JFOJ's recommendation to get a CHEAP (I got a VeePeak) WiFi OBDII adapter and OBD Fusion. It's the best $30 I have ever spent on an automotive tool !

The WiFi adapter can be had for even less than the $20 I paid (shipping included). I went with a little more highly rated vendor and a quicker delivery. I have an iPhone, so the OBD Fusion app was $10. The WiFi adapter sits in my glove box or console, taking almost no space, and the phone I have along anyway. I have been able to log data that my more expensive Acton reader never could - and I can send the CSV log files by email to myself or others - even my independent mechanic. I expect I will use it more often for family and friends than for my own car.

I share the desire to avoid computerizing my entire life, but OBD Fusion lets me simplify complicated trouble shooting - and log some data if I have to.

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Old 11-24-2016, 01:08 PM   #14
jdstrickland
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I'd like to echo the truth that you need a scan tool, and that it should be a phone-based unit of some kind. You could stomp around in the weeds with your hands on your ears, looking for mines. Or, you can use a tool to eliminate the things that are not the problem so that you can focus on the things that might be a problem.

You need an ELM-327 module in wifi or bluetooth version, or both, and an app to run on your device -- phone or tablet. For several multiples of the price of this, you could buy a scan tool from AutoZone. The scan tool from AutoZone will most definitely be one of those things where you get what you pay for, a cheap tool will give cheap advice, a good tool will cost more but give better information.
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Old 11-24-2016, 01:55 PM   #15
tcphoto
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I saw no mention of the Disa O Ring or replacing vacuum hoses. I had lean codes for awhile and ended up finding rotting hoses including the SAP hoses, the one that runs from the SAP back to the rear of the engine. While you're at it those vacuum plugs should be replaced also.
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