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Old 01-04-2016, 03:20 PM   #1
STM Suspension
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STFT, LTFT and lean codes...

Hello.

Trying to understand a little more so I can hopefully fix the problems. I just bought the car. 2002 325iT, manual, 111k miles. Upon purchase, I drove the car across country to get it home. Typical MPH was 80 to 82 with the cruise control on. Average mileage per tank was 25, with a high of 25.4 and a low of 23.8. Didn't really have inclement weather, so no big head wind the whole way.

Previous owner replaced, near as I can tell, the ENTIRE cooling system, including thermostat housing, temp sensor, radiator cap, level switch, radiator, hoses, expansion tank. The car had an alignment after installing new OE LCA and trailing arm bushings, along with dampers and springs. Summer tires for the trip. Spark plugs about 10k miles ago. Calipers were, in theory, rebuilt recently. In theory he also did a bit to try and fix the P0174 code. (Nothing like a guy not telling you the check engine light is on until AFTER you pay for the car.) PO does say that he did not change the fuel pump, so that's on the list.

So I've bought the suggested app, OBD Fusion. I'm waiting on the bluetooth OBD2 plug in to show up, but in the mean time I plugged in my OBD2 code reader, which is a little more than a code reader, and it's showing in the live data stream LTFT of 10-12% and STFT of -3 to 12%. I'm at 5,000 feet of elevation. Does this (or should this) have any effect on the LTFT?

The car starts and runs great. Idle is just fine, butter smooth. I drove 2 other box stock 325 sedans the other day; both seemed to have more midrange for sure and more power throughout. Both of those cars had 160,000 miles on them.

Thoughts?

Thanks for helping.
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Old 01-04-2016, 03:40 PM   #2
jfoj
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It appears some of these cars have a barometric sensor actually built into to the DME.

But the MAF should typically adjust no problem for altitude if the MAF is working properly.

At idle the most common reasons the high positive Long Term Fuel Trims, greater than +3%, is typically due to intake and/or crankcase air leaks.

At cruise the most common reasons the high positive Long Term Fuel Trims, greater than +3%, is typically due to a degraded MAF and/or soft fuel pump.

Given the car is a 2002 with 111k miles, if it was my car, I would be replacing the fuel pump. Every E46 needs a fuel pump at this point in its lifespan.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Once you get the interface for OBDFusion, then you can gather data that will give a better idea as to what is really going on.

Your car is 12-13 years old at this point, every piece or rubber and plastic under the hood is about finished and you need to determine what needs to be replaced first. Intake boots, CCV and hoses, DISA, valve cover and oil filter housing gaskets. The power brake booster is about gone as well.

If it was my car, I would send the GM5 module to Scott at www.bmwgm5.com to have the relays replaced as a PM. It is not if, but when all of these things catch up to you.

You may want to read my comments in this thread - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?p=16727145
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 01-04-2016, 03:48 PM   #3
STM Suspension
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Thanks. That's what I thought. I'll post more when the interface arrives.

Already having door lock issues. I saw your mention of Scott previously, so that's already on the list as well. (Nothing like the wife looking at me saying,"You spent how much on this car and the doors don't unlock?!"

Do you have a source you like for fuel pumps and MAF meters?

Thanks again, and can I know your name? Just so I can thank you appropriately.

Dave.
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Old 01-04-2016, 05:47 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STM Suspension View Post
Thanks. That's what I thought. I'll post more when the interface arrives.

Already having door lock issues. I saw your mention of Scott previously, so that's already on the list as well. (Nothing like the wife looking at me saying,"You spent how much on this car and the doors don't unlock?!"

Do you have a source you like for fuel pumps and MAF meters?

Thanks again, and can I know your name? Just so I can thank you appropriately.

Dave.
GM5 - www.bmwgm5.com

If you need any replacement keyfobs, for about $135 each, read this thread toward the end - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=1008294

Fuel Pump - www.bmaparts.com tends to have the best price on the fuel pump, around $130 or so on your front door step. Siemens VDO pump is what you want.

As for the MAF, we will hold off on this for now. DO NOT buy a cheap ebay MAF, finding quality, non counterfeit MAF's is not easy and you need to be careful where you purchase from.
__________________
Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 01-09-2016, 10:07 PM   #5
STM Suspension
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Ok. So I bought a Bosch fuel pump from Napa because I have the time today to do it since the wife is out of town. It's in, it's working. It's a bit smaller in diameter than the VDO unit, and you have to do some wiring. If you go this route, I'd suggest getting the entire assembly instead of just the pump so everything fits nicely together.

The car seems a bit perkier. I could just be using more throttle. I won't swear to it.

Fuel trims seem a little bit better, maybe a couple percent, but I can still get to the double digits on short term. Long term seems to be sitting in the 5-7 percent range. This is also the 3rd tank of gas with no ethanol, maybe that's helping.

Interesting thing I noticed just now, the MAF readout showed 10 lb/m at wide open throttle at redline in 2nd gear. It's 14 degrees F outside. Also, my 'fun gauge' is VERY easy to peg at 8 or 10 mpg. Is this the same for everyone? My M Coupe doesn't have this gauge (for good reason) so I'm not very calibrated to it...
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Old 01-09-2016, 10:36 PM   #6
jfoj
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Change your MAF reading from lb/m to g/s, this is the "global" reference that almost everyone uses.

As for Fuel Trims, if the fuel pump helped matters, the Adaptations will shift over the next few days/week while you drive. They should Adapt/Shift during the first tank of fuel used. If they start to drift downwards you are in good shape.

Chances are the perkier response was due to a softening fuel pump?

DISA may be the next thing to inspect, but you need to buy a few replacement O-rings before you pull it. German Auto Solutions is the easiest place to get them, just purchase a few of the cheaper orange ones, no need for the expensive green ones.
__________________
Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 01-09-2016, 11:31 PM   #7
STM Suspension
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Hokay.

50 mph, steady state cruising returns about 15 g/s, +/- 1 g/s. Maximum attainable in second gear was 100 g/s.

After some full throttle and cruising, long term fuel trims back at 10-11%. STFT in the 4-9 range. Again, JUST changed the fuel pump, so 10 miles on it so far.
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Old 01-29-2016, 06:25 PM   #8
STM Suspension
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Update...

Installed new upper and lower intake boots; not much in the way of cracks in the old ones.

Previous owner looks to have tried to RTV the disa to seal it. I cleaned the groove and installed a new oring.

The lower hose to the dip stick appears to be in good condition on cursory inspection.

Typical driving LTFTs are both 11.7 with STFTs varying between 3 and 9. At idle, I'm seeing some negative numbers on the Short Terms, which leads me to believe that the oring helped.

Interesting observation; when coasting, with the car in gear (shut throttle), the STFTs both go to zero and stay there. Same thing at WFO/WOT/flat; the STFTs go to zero and stay there...

Thoughts?
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Old 01-29-2016, 06:47 PM   #9
jfoj
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CCV lower oil return line that connects to the dipstick is almost always collapsed or broken after 9-10 years.

LTFT at 11.7% are too high. Is this at idle? Logs would be a better way to get a good idea about what may really be going on.

As for the STFT going to 0% when coasting, this is NORMAL. Coast down with fuel cut due to deceleration.

WOT the STFT do typically go to 0%. Typically under very hard throttle above 3500 RPM the engine actually goes into Open loop due to engine load. This is because the engine fuel management is not typically fast enough to to keep the fuel mixture correct and the designers err on the side of a Richer fuel mixture to protect the engine from a Leaning condition that will elevate the combustion chamber temperatures.
__________________
Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 01-30-2016, 01:05 AM   #10
STM Suspension
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I'll check the CCV hose.

Yes, the LTFT is over 10% at idle. But after the oring, I've noticed negative numbers on the STFTs at idle- getting close to a net zero at idle. Still massively out of whack during part throttle.

And thanks again.

Last edited by STM Suspension; 01-30-2016 at 01:05 AM.
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Old 01-30-2016, 06:43 AM   #11
jfoj
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If fuel trims are high off idle, usually during a cruise situation this is typically due to a degraded/wrong/counterfeit MAF or a weak/soft fuel pump.

Without having solid data it is hard to tell, this is why Logging the OBDII datastream eliminates about 40 posts per thread.
__________________
Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 01-30-2016, 04:58 PM   #12
STM Suspension
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Then I will attempt to keep the post count short! I logged some this morning, with time, speed, coolant temp, Short Term Fuel % 1,2, Long Term Fuel % 1,2, RPM, Mass airflow rate (g/s), Absolute Throttle (which doesn't seem to read right), speed.

What else will help?
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Old 01-31-2016, 04:42 PM   #13
STM Suspension
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Ok. CSV link...

http://stmsuspension.com/wp-content/...Jan16_1157.csv

The speed reading and the ABS TPS seem to update VERY slowly. I don't know where to turn the resolution / sampling rate up.

So I created a column at the end called MPH (gps) which is based on the gps (m/s) converted to mph.

Thanks for all the help with this.
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Old 01-31-2016, 04:56 PM   #14
jfoj
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Are you using an iProduct with the VeePeak interface??

I have seen some strange things with the VeePeak interface and iProducts with update time.

There may be some settings you can tweak?

See this thread, note OBDFusion used to be called Touch Scan for Android and the comments/menus are for the Android version of OBDFusion - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=1080334

The thing that stands out is the MAF has a VERY low reading at idle. Most of these engnies have a 3.5-4.0 g/s reading at warm idle.

So there is either a sizable vacuum leak or the MAF is under reporting.

Smoke test and make sure the power brake booster is not leaking as well. You cannot smoke test a brake booster with the input check valve installed as it will not allow smoke to enter the brake booster.
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 01-31-2016, 06:11 PM   #15
STM Suspension
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Thank you. It's sounding more and more like the MAF. The check valve in the brake master is working properly (checked the other day) and I found a procedure on here to check the integrity of the brake vacuum booster- which, according to the instructions, is working appropriately. And it's had several hours with a proper, knowledgeable mechanic looking for vacuum leaks, so...

Android, so I'll look at that link.

Thanks, yet again.
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Old 02-09-2016, 06:41 PM   #16
05SMG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfoj View Post
If fuel trims are high off idle, usually during a cruise situation this is typically due to a degraded/wrong/counterfeit MAF or a weak/soft fuel pump.

Without having solid data it is hard to tell, this is why Logging the OBDII datastream eliminates about 40 posts per thread.
Analyzing my data over several trips with my OBD2 Fusion with wifi interface, what is more important to watch STFT's or LTFT's ?
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Old 02-09-2016, 06:50 PM   #17
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More import to Log the data and allow my to look at it.

Read this -

You need to learn how to use the Logging function, this is the most useful part of the tool. It allows people like myself to see what is going on with the car and saves 40-50 posts on each thread. Every time the App is connected it is Logging.

So here is some information that may be useful. But you also need to spend 20 minutes playing with the App. Please note anytime you perform a Diagnostic Report, please have the engine running.

You also need to set up a DropBox Free account, learn how to store Diagnostic Reports and learn how to perform screen captures on your phone/tablet platform.

Read this in detail:

OBDFusion is FAR more intuitive than other Apps.

First change the MAF reading from Pounds/Min to Grams/Sec, stupid EASY.

Settings, Units, Airflow menus, choose g/s.

Temp sometimes can be more useful in C vs F, but no so critical.

Settings, Log Setup then set the following:

Logging Enabled - checked

Logging Trigger - choose Trigger at a fixed sample time

Sample Time - choose 1000 msec

Log GPS Items - suggest you unselect it as to not advertise where you live

Select Items to Log - This varies a bit for each car. But here is a list I like to see:

Fuel - do not check any of these 3 items

SAE PID's:

Fuel system 1 status
Fuel system 2 status
Calculated load value
Engine coolant temperature
Short term fuel % trim - Bank 1
Long term fuel % trim - Bank 1
Short term fuel % trim - Bank 2
Long term fuel % trim - Bank 2
Engine RPM
Vehicle speed
Ignition timing advance for #1 cylinder
Intake air temperature
Mass air flow rate
O2 Voltage (Bank 1, Sensor 1) - not all cars have this
O2 Voltage (Bank 1, Sensor 2) - not all cars have this
O2 Voltage (Bank 2, Sensor 1)
O2 Voltage (Bank 2, Sensor 2)
O2 sensor Voltage wide range (Bank 1, Sensor 1) - not all cars have this
O2 sensor Voltage wide range (Bank 2, Sensor 1) - not all cars have this
Input Voltage read by the scan tool

Before you clear codes, get the Freeze Frame data and email or save the screen shot if this is an option. Freeze Frame data saves about 20+ questions as to what is going on.


DropBox Info

Also you need to set up a DropBox Free account and learn how to upload the .CSV files to

The easiest way it to set up a DropBox Free account is on your computer.

BUT, WARNING - YOU DO NOT WANT TO INSTALL THE DROPBOX SOFTWARE. IT WILL DO SOME CRAZY THINGS IF YOU DO NOT DISABLE AND MANAGE IT.

What you do is during the DropBox Free sign up process, once you enter your user name and password, when the prompt shows up to download and install the software, just use the Back browser button. This will take you to your Account and then you can upload the files either directly from the phone once you enter the DropBox user name and password in the OBDFusion App.

I like to see 3 baseline Logs.

Cold start from overnight. Turn ignition on and get App connected before you start the engine. Start the engine and let it idle for 4 minutes in Park or Neutral, do not touch the throttle. After 4 minutes, disconnect to stop the Log so it is not too large.

Warm idle for 4 minutes. You can connect the App while the engine is running, the disconnect the App after 4 minutes.

Warm highway cruise fro 4 minutes. Try to find a flat/level road without much traffic. 50-65 MPH range, hold as steady as possible and/or use cruise control.

After you get the Logs, upload them to DropBox and long with any screen shots or Diagnostic reports. Then choose the Share option in DropBox, then copy and paste the URL back in the thread for review.
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old Yesterday, 12:10 AM   #18
STM Suspension
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Alright. I just set everything up on the phone to log the requested inputs. I'll generate files tomorrow. And sorry for dragging this out- Mexico was calling so I had to spend a week on a beach...

And, as always, thanks.
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Old Yesterday, 07:12 AM   #19
05SMG
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jfoj, I have been following these posts, already have Dropbox, set PID log parameters, but not as detailed as what you like to see. I'll start logging ASAP. I already see LTFT numbers showing a constant positive trim of 7 to 8 % during a 65 mile highway commute? OBD Fusion is very cool and addicting. CSV file coming.

Last edited by 05SMG; Yesterday at 07:15 AM.
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Old Yesterday, 07:22 AM   #20
jfoj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 05SMG View Post
jfoj, I have been following these posts, already have Dropbox, set PID log parameters, but not as detailed as what you like to see. I'll start logging ASAP. I already see LTFT numbers showing a constant positive trim of 7 to 8 % during a 65 mile highway commute? OBD Fusion is very cool and addicting. CSV file coming.
7-8% LTFT is a bit high, but not typically high enough to trigger Lean codes. But STFT and LTFT do work together to trigger Lean codes, to it is not always just LTFT that trigger Lean codes.

But a 7-8% LTFT at cruise means something is out of line and needs to be addressed.

I say ALL the time that just because there are no lights on the dash lit, this DOES NOT mean everything is operating fine. You need the tools to monitor the Fuel Management System and you need to benchmark your vehicle and spot check it on a regular basis. Kind of like checking oil or tire pressure.
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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