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DIY: Do It Yourself
Post here to share or improve your wrench turning skills! All BMW E46 DIY tips, tales, and projects discussed inside. Learn to work on your car and know the right BMW parts you will need!

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Old 11-25-2014, 10:10 AM   #1
coreyc
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Join Date: Oct 2013
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E46 Trans output shaft seal - help needed

Hi all,

Trying to wrap up a clutch replacement on my 2002 330CI Manual transmission. Following the Bavauto videos for the most part.

Got the triangular collar off the trans output shaft, pulled the old seal, replaced with a new one using the 36MM socket for a drift - got overzealous and drove it too far in so it's slightly folded inward at it's back edge into the space where the collar should fit back into.

Going to pull that seal too and put another replacement in on the weekend.

A few questions I'm hoping someone with experience can help with?

1 - the output shaft collar seemed extremely difficult to get back into place - I used liquimoly on the splines on the shaft as well as the inner diameter of the splined collar (as per Bavauto) - I was using the socket as a drift and a dead blow hammer, and before the collar was back far enough to touch the seal, it was feeling bound up, like I'd need a sledge to get it completely seated - it was coming up short like maybe a full inch or more, and hadn't made contact with the seal yet. The threads on the shaft hadn't yet become visible on the outer side of the collar. Is there a better lube I should be using? Is it really just brute force? I pulled it two more times, lubed, tried again and had the same issue. I'll have to examine all of the splines and collar for burrs etc.

2 - when I have the new seal in place, I'm worried that the force needed to put the collar back in will maybe deform the new seal, or cause it to travel backwards too far, which will make it bottom out and foul the seating for the collar, and then cost me another seal. Should I mount the seal only to the minimum possible depth and assume it will travel back with the activity of driving in the collar?

The bavauto video kind of glosses over this section. Any help would be appreciated!
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Old 04-26-2015, 06:26 PM   #2
coreyc
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Wanted to share my experiences on this in case it helps anyone. I bought a second seal, pulled the mangled first one. Drove the new one in past the outer lip but not all the way home like I did the first one. Hammered in the output flange, and with the friction of the flange against the seal, I ended up bottoming out the 2nd seal too (which I discovered after a lot of aggravation and finally pulling the collar again).

So wait for spring and try again. Here's what worked for me finally.

I pulled the second botched seal. After all of this activity I had scratched up the area so I used my dremel to gently smooth the burrs I created. Brake cleaner and a quick pause to dry, then toothbrush with liquimoly on the spkines, trans fluid for lube on the inner and outer edges of the seal, used the 36mm socket to tap the seal in only as far as being flush to the outer lip. Soaked the cleaned up flange in hot water during all of that, toothbrush/liquimoly the spkines and used a 4lb sledge to tap it home, took maybe 6 or so firm taps. Was able to seat everything fine. Used the impact wrench in lieu of the first torque sequence, backed off the nut and torqued it to spec.

Hopfefully someone learns from my mistake of driving the seal too deep and wasting cash and time.
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Old 06-08-2015, 04:53 AM   #3
qWantUS
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Seal issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by coreyc View Post
Wanted to share my experiences on this in case it helps anyone. I bought a second seal, pulled the mangled first one. Drove the new one in past the outer lip but not all the way home like I did the first one. Hammered in the output flange, and with the friction of the flange against the seal, I ended up bottoming out the 2nd seal too (which I discovered after a lot of aggravation and finally pulling the collar again).

So wait for spring and try again. Here's what worked for me finally.

I pulled the second botched seal. After all of this activity I had scratched up the area so I used my dremel to gently smooth the burrs I created. Brake cleaner and a quick pause to dry, then toothbrush with liquimoly on the spkines, trans fluid for lube on the inner and outer edges of the seal, used the 36mm socket to tap the seal in only as far as being flush to the outer lip. Soaked the cleaned up flange in hot water during all of that, toothbrush/liquimoly the spkines and used a 4lb sledge to tap it home, took maybe 6 or so firm taps. Was able to seat everything fine. Used the impact wrench in lieu of the first torque sequence, backed off the nut and torqued it to spec.

Hopfefully someone learns from my mistake of driving the seal too deep and wasting cash and time.
Hi there, thanks for the advice, I will be doing mine this weekend so this will definitely help! What I am worried about now is that the seal itself comes it two types? At least judging by pictures and online info. One type is like round black ring, and the other is black round ring with plastic white insert (febi 21073) so now I am confused which one I need and what is the difference. I will be buying febi one and if not suitable, will not fit it and send it back for a refund. I am changing flywheel+clutch in to solid flywheel+sprung clutch so would change the seal at the same time. Any thoughts on this seal type? Have you made any pictures with your findings?
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Old 06-08-2015, 09:16 AM   #4
coreyc
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*** Please take all of this as general advice only and do your own research too - I've only done this once ****

Hi there - so I think you are confusing the seal I was referring to, or you have the wrong seal in mind for your job.

The black seal that comes with the white plastic circle inside of it is the rear main seal for the engine. That white plastic is actually a fitment jig. If you're doing the flywheel and clutch, definitely replace this. Watch the Bavauto 2 part video for the clutch job. ZHP mafia also has a good post on it. There's a good youtube video that's an hour long of a guy doing this on a lift (think it's an E36, still bang on for the details - he didn't do any transmission work though)There are a lot of other things to do while you're in there, depending - too much to go into - but the guibo, driveshaft center support bearing (CSB), any shifter bushings. I also did the detent pin fix on my transmission (you need a set of machined drifts). Transmission mounts, engine mounts (if you're using a support bar, which I did). Transmission oil drain/fill, differential drain/fill.

But specifically back to these two seals. For the main seal, I ignored the Bavauto advice to remove the carrier (I actually did remove the carrier on my first go and botched a seal there too!). What worked for me is to drill a pilot hole in the rear main seal, drive an appropriate sized screw in, and slide-hammer action it out either with a slide hammer or vice grips or something. Take note of the previously mounted depth so you can duplicate this for the new seal.

Clean the cavity where the old seal was with brake parts cleaner, oil up the outer edge of both your new mail seal (on the white carrier), and the engine crank, and also the plastic along the path where the seal will slide off - then line up the white carrier on the crank - it fits in place so that you can evenly and gently (I was able to use my hands alone and no punch) slide the rear main seal into place. I've seen another video that suggests using some sealant on the outer edge of the seal instead of oil - I did not - just used oil. This way you don't have to mess with the oil pan gasket.

What I described in my original post was the output seal on the transmission that sits in behind the triangular flange that in turn connects to the guibo.

For the rear seal - sometimes you see it pictured on the white carrier, sometimes not. I highly doubt it would come without the carrier and that it's just some stock photos of the seal alone being used. I'd be sure to contact whoever you'd be considering buying from to make certain in the case that they don't show the white plastic carrier.

I'd be sure to over-research this and, budget-allowing replace what you can based on the age and repair history of your car - it's a lot of work to get in there.

Two things I didn't see mentioned anywhere - I would personally bleed the clutch and make sure everything looks well fitted before reinstalling the aluminum support plate with its stretch bolts - you'll make sure the slave is mounted correctly and won't have to go back in and waste (or reuse) bolts.

And when putting the slave back on the transmission - holy crap. I don't know why I had such trouble. It would be easier on a lift for sure. I mounted it after a prolonged struggle due to lack of leverage and access - then used a motive pressure bleeder at only 10 psi - the slave blew apart - I was working at it too long to get it seated and likely got the pin to go cock-eyed. So the pin from the slave, the retaining metal gasket, the rubber seal, and another little part - all sitting lose in the now-bolted-back-on transmission. Thank goodness for the clutch fork getting in the way a little. I was able to fish all the parts out with a magnet.

A magnetic socket for the nuts would have been helpful for installation. Pay attention to this part and align the slave, depress it squarely and get the nuts started to secure it.

Well, good luck! If you do increase the scope of planned work, be very careful in taking notes and bagging parts so that you are sure to attend to everything correctly. Sorry - I took no pics of anything while I worked.

Last edited by coreyc; 06-08-2015 at 09:26 AM. Reason: clarification
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Old 06-08-2015, 04:37 PM   #5
qWantUS
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I mean WOW coreyc Thank you for this super detailed info I must say I did not even noticed that I was writing in the thread about transmission seal and not the crankshaft Anyway, now you basically explained the most important bit of info I didn't even thought about that plastic being a jig. Now its all clear. Aparently there was an older version (febi/bildstein 21074) but there is also the new (febi/bildstein 21073) which I have ordered. But before I actually disassemble everything, most of the pictures makes little to no sense, they only give some idea. I am just an amateur tinkerer to be honest, and in no shape of form a mechanic. I just decided last year to do stuff by myself, bought some tools and here I am reading and trying by myself
The seal I am talking about is the part #11142249533. And from the picture I understand that is the only seal there is and the only one to be replaced. t goes inside that letter "D" shaped bracket (just bellow #3 at http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=11_2087) , which will be behind everything after removing clutch+flywheel, or am I missing something? The guide bearing will also be replaced in the process.
Anyways thanks again for your input! Just trying to get as much prepared as I can before performing this "operation" the gearbox will follow next in coming months, but I will be working on separate gearbox so will have as much time as I need. This is my daily driver so I try not to take impossible projects, and because this one is big enough to take maybe two days on my own, I am gathering as much info as I can before actually proceeding.
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Old 06-09-2015, 07:55 AM   #6
coreyc
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Great stuff - yes, your drawing/info is correct. You'll see it when you take the flywheel off. I really recommend watching the Bavauto videos of the UUC clutch kit install, plus the one I mentioned on youtube titles "1998 BMW E36 3-series Clutch Assembly" - that guys does almost a continuous take of the process - you get to see another go at it. I forgot about the pilot bearing - I bought a puller for that - also watched a video where guys pressed in bread to push it out - very simple.

At one stage for torquing down the flywheel bolts (after you've slowly and evenly tightened them), you'll need to brace the crank - I chose a stip of metal and then drilled holes to accommodate the allen bolt of a pressure plate and a transmission bolt and then locked it down by attaching it to the bell housing and the flywheel.

For all the transmission bolts - be very sure your torx socket is all the way seated before trying to break them. There are three different bolts used in the 9 or so that are there - I bough an extra of each, and ending up needing to replace the topmost largest one as I wasn't seated well and rounded it a bit. I couldn't imagine having to deal with a rounded bolt the next time I need to swap the clutch.

Lastly - I went to a Valeo solid mass flywheel. I had already done the CDV delete. I really like the clutch so far. Remember to baby it for the first two tanks of gas.

Good luck!
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Old 06-09-2015, 07:55 AM   #7
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Duplicate post

Last edited by coreyc; 06-09-2015 at 07:56 AM. Reason: Duplicate post
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Old 06-17-2015, 04:25 PM   #8
qWantUS
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Thumbs Up done

Just a quick update: I have managed to do all the work last Sunday, and can only be proud of myself doing it on my own ( to be fair to my wife - she helped to pull the car jack with the gearbox on top, while I was under the car balancing the gearbox ) and except few mistakes all went well. To start with, I have missed the 10mm bolt in the bell housing and spend about half hour trying to pull it out - covered in sweat!!! (the car was on axle stands so not much space under) and to stir all even more, rain came unexpected! But after removing that stupid 10mm bolt, all went more less OK, no stuck or broken screws. The flywheel was absolutely dead, the centre part was spinning more less free about 3cm both directions so there was massive play in it! Also clutch plate cover had a crack, so it was just a matter of time (not long) until catastrophic failure on the motorway!!. Then came the part where you have to put everything together, so main seal went in first. I hammered (small hammer) old out and used it to gently and evenly hammer new one in. Then the bearing - the bread trick really works! you just have to use something of the right diameter - I used my extended 10mm 1/4 socket which as perfect fit. I just clogged it up with some bolt and some more bread inside . Next went flywheel - by following 1-5, 2-6, 3-7, 4-8, technique and slowly increasing toque starting from nice 28nm and finishing with 115nm, (on the manual recommended was 105-120). Then went the clutch and the cover.. I have made myself a alignment tool, but to be fair that was absolute waist of time . after using it I just could not put the gearbox back, so in the end I just used 3/8 150mm socket extension and by using my own eyes measured the distance by tilting it in all 4 directions, just making sure all the distances where even while looking that the clutch plate cover. And guess what?! It worked! But stop you stupid! you forgot the stupid bell housing seal ( or whatever you call that large metal washer!) But I have just managed to push it from the bottom up while upside down and just turned it right way up! Then the gearbox was on and the bolts where getting back to where they came from. Next was the CDV delete... that took a very long time, mainly because I only realised after like an hour of my wife pressing the pedal and me playing with 7mm spanner under the car and getting more and more frustrated to see only air coming out, that the clutch feed tube is a lot higher then the marking of minimum brake fluid level on another side of the fluid tank!!! So then it was a peace of cake! I do not own that fancy pump/tool so after getting bored with pumping using the pedal, I ended up using 2l fizzy drink bottle as a pump, literally cutting the bit where the cap goes and leaving just a small bit of that thick plastic neck. Then I just used it like a pump by pressing it down to the brake fluid tank ( not too hard to collapse it) and squashing the bottle to create pressure inside.. And what do you know, 4-5 squashes later the fluid was running nicely from the slave cylinder then obviously did few pumps with the pedal (like changing brake fluid) to make sure, and that was it..
As a side notice - this is the diesel engine, and not in any way smooth, but after driving the car for a few days in the daily traffic (jams most of the time) I can only say - I love it! unfortunately you get a low end rumble as you would get if you say drive in gear at lets say 1200rpm... it is a bit louder then it was before and it goes up to 1300- maybe 1400rmp but after using the car I can say Its absolutely liveable! The engagement is instant but smooth so absolutely amazing sensation. Also the pedal is so light now! I could not believe, I thought I had left some air in clutch system but no! Now my wife can drive it in daily jams!! So if anyone ask - should I get a SMF for 2 litter BMW diesel - I can only say YES Now I just need to wait for that brake in period and then we can test that new map!
Again thanks for the tips @coreyc , I hope someone else will stumble upon this thread and find something useful of this all misunderstanding
By the way I have watched those videos and they have been very helpful, you get an idea before you actually have to face the reality

Anyway thank you @coreyc

Have a great day!
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Old 06-17-2015, 07:14 PM   #9
coreyc
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Way to go! Glad to hear it went fairly smooth.

I was wondering if you had done it yet.

It is indeed a great feeling to accomplish this on jackstands. Maybe we'll get a lift one day!

Happy driving...
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