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Old 11-21-2013, 10:26 AM   #1
sfcjetjr
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: Avon Park, Florida
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My Ride: 2002 BMW 325i
DTC and Fuel Trim issues Help PLEASE!

Hello all fellow B's! I have been chasing this DTC and long and short fuel trim problem for ever! Was finally able to catch a freeze frame of happening on my scanner. I have read the threads, but just can't figure it out. Hope someone can share some info on this!



2002 325i

146,000 on the clock

Only mods are CAI and resonators deleted



Have done the following:

Replaced pre cat O2's

Replaced Valve cover gasket

Oil filler cap

Water pump

Themostat

Vanos seals

Replaced ICV twice

Cleaned throttle body

Replaced MAF sensor (used one from part out)

Upper and lower intake hoses

New fuel filter with regulator

Replaced intake gaskets

New oil check tube and dip stick

Replaced coolant temp sensor

cleaned MAF sensor several times



The eml, dsc, and brake light come on at will. And after enough of off and on starting to clear the trifecta, the service engine light will come on with a P1500 code, and we all know that means ICV.



Freeze frame data read:



P1500

Engine rpm 2133

Load value 23.5%

Coolant temp 195 degrees



Fuel trims:

ST 1 .8%

LT 1 -8.0%



ST 2 8%

LT 2 -7.5%



ST 3 -100.6%

LT 3 -100.6%



ST 4 -100.6%

LT 4 -100.6%



Speed 56 MPH



Fuel system 1 closed

Fuel system 2 closed



What do y'all think?







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Old 11-21-2013, 05:09 PM   #2
lszlszx
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Possible bad contact. Check fuses and wiring.
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Old 11-21-2013, 05:19 PM   #3
330ism
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DTC and Fuel Trim issues Help PLEASE!

Find JFOJ and follow his threads on these issues


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Old 11-22-2013, 09:53 AM   #4
markusmarkus
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DTC and Fuel Trim issues Help PLEASE!

You obviously have an electrical problem as the DSC, EML and other lights are intermittently coming on. I'd tackle that first. How many miles on the car? Has the alternator been tested?


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Old 11-23-2013, 11:57 AM   #5
sfcjetjr
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DTC and Fuel Trim issues Help PLEASE!

Getting ready to tear into the drivers side of the motor, again, and look for wires. Wish me luck!


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Old 11-23-2013, 11:58 AM   #6
sfcjetjr
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DTC and Fuel Trim issues Help PLEASE!

Yes air alternator is good.


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Old 11-23-2013, 11:58 AM   #7
sfcjetjr
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DTC and Fuel Trim issues Help PLEASE!

Plus new battery.


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Old 11-23-2013, 12:35 PM   #8
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Not sure why you are getting a P1500 code doing 56 MPH?

BMW P1500 indicated ICV stuck open. Not sure I would pay that code a lot of attention.

Your LTFT should also NEVER be a negative value. -7.5% and -8.0% is WAY out of range.

It I had to guess these figures are somewhat false, there is hardly any reason an engine would run this rich at highway speeds.

2 things come to mind. O2 sensor wiring problems, wrong banks, sensors connected to each other and the MAF.

So CAREFULLY trace the O2 sensor wiring, the front and rear sensors and the connections on the car can be connected to each other due to the gender of the connections. I have also seen sensors swapped in the wiring Bank to Bank.

If you have a decent OBDII tool that displays Live/Real Time data, you can just unplug a single O2 sensors, see what data stream drops and/or DTC is triggered and make sure the wiring is correct.

Then swap the MAF's out if you have an old one.

See where the LTFT shift to. The ideal range is 0% to +2.5%.
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temps, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose fan switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299

Last edited by jfoj; 11-23-2013 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 11-23-2013, 01:19 PM   #9
sfcjetjr
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DTC and Fuel Trim issues Help PLEASE!

Will attempt swap, and have to reset fuel trims and see after a drive. Thanks that had never occurred to me because I just relaxed the front o2's about 4 months ago. Thanks


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Old 11-23-2013, 01:38 PM   #10
jfoj
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Why swap?

Why not disconnect and verify?

No need to reset fuel trims, they will realign themselves.
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temps, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose fan switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 11-23-2013, 01:53 PM   #11
sfcjetjr
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DTC and Fuel Trim issues Help PLEASE!

My scanner only shows freeze frame when the fault occurs.


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Old 11-23-2013, 01:56 PM   #12
sfcjetjr
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DTC and Fuel Trim issues Help PLEASE!

I was told to look you up!


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Old 11-23-2013, 02:15 PM   #13
jfoj
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Cheap scan tool, they should not even be allowed to sell scan tools that do no display Live/Real Time data, what a waste.

Disconnect only one front O2 sensor, drive until the CEL comes on, look at the Freeze Frame for the O2 sensor error and see what Bank it indicates and then verify the sensor wiring.

You have a smart phone of some sort, spend $30 or less and get an App and an OBDII interface. Read this - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=967204
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temps, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose fan switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 11-24-2013, 10:01 PM   #14
sfcjetjr
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My Ride: 2002 BMW 325i
DTC and Fuel Trim issues Help PLEASE!

Did as you suggested and all is connected properly. p1500 manf speed control ICV auxillery input is the code that keeps coming back, pluse the trifecta. Really stumped...


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Old 11-26-2013, 06:47 PM   #15
sfcjetjr
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DTC and Fuel Trim issues Help PLEASE!

Just an update to situations. Removed all tubing and ICV today. Tested ICV with power supply, acted as suppose to. Checked upper and lower for cracks or hoses, none. Checked connectors at ICV, MAF, Disa to ensure getting power and all were as aspected. Reinstalled ICV, powered up car and can hear the usual humming noise. Ensured disa unit was sealed properly to intake. Did plunger test on ICV before hand and performed ok... When I closed the disa valve flap and placed my finger over hole on bottom. Flapp moved back a bit back bit stayed that way until vacuum was rel eased and could hear diaphragm, make a sound when vacuum released also. Tighter up all connectors to ensure good contacts. Readings for tonight outing...

P1500
Rpm 1986
Load 26.2%
201% f temp
St 1. 1.5%
Lt 1. -7.7%

St 2. -3.4%
Lt 2. -7.7%

St and LT for 3 and 4 at -100.6%

speed. 52 mph

Fuel system 1 and 2 closed.


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Old 11-26-2013, 06:50 PM   #16
sfcjetjr
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DTC and Fuel Trim issues Help PLEASE!

Has new battery and tested charging. 12.5v off. 14.1v engine running. So alternator should be good too.



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Old 11-26-2013, 07:10 PM   #17
jfoj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfcjetjr View Post
Just an update to situations. Removed all tubing and ICV today. Tested ICV with power supply, acted as suppose to. Checked upper and lower for cracks or hoses, none. Checked connectors at ICV, MAF, Disa to ensure getting power and all were as aspected. Reinstalled ICV, powered up car and can hear the usual humming noise. Ensured disa unit was sealed properly to intake. Did plunger test on ICV before hand and performed ok... When I closed the disa valve flap and placed my finger over hole on bottom. Flapp moved back a bit back bit stayed that way until vacuum was rel eased and could hear diaphragm, make a sound when vacuum released also. Tighter up all connectors to ensure good contacts. Readings for tonight outing...

P1500
Rpm 1986
Load 26.2%
201% f temp
St 1. 1.5%
Lt 1. -7.7%

St 2. -3.4%
Lt 2. -7.7%

St and LT for 3 and 4 at -100.6%

speed. 52 mph

Fuel system 1 and 2 closed.
Ok, so we can determine that at least the engine coolant temperature is correct.

Something is not right here and I am not sure where to start with this?

So LTFT at (negative) - 7.7%. RARELY do engines run into negative fuel trims, especially while cruising at highway speeds. Are these values moving? Not sure if you can answer this if your tool does not display Live/Real Time data? I see they are slightly different from your first figures.

Negative fuel trims means the engine is running rich or things it is running rich. Usually negative fuel trims are due to a sensor that is really bad and putting out false data and/or sensors are connected wrong.

Did you verify the O2 sensors are properly connected?

I think you need to get a smart phone OBDII App and get more data and start graphing O2 sensors and so forth?

Only other thing that comes to mind is an Evap solenoid that may be stuck partially open, but again, usually you will have Evap codes if this is the case.
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temps, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose fan switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 11-26-2013, 07:17 PM   #18
sfcjetjr
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My Ride: 2002 BMW 325i
DTC and Fuel Trim issues Help PLEASE!

Also removed oil filler cap to check for vacuum. Vacuum created tested with piece of paper. Rpms rose a bit with cap off and settled back down after putting the cap back on.


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Old 11-26-2013, 07:53 PM   #19
jfoj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfcjetjr View Post
Also removed oil filler cap to check for vacuum. Vacuum created tested with piece of paper. Rpms rose a bit with cap off and settled back down after putting the cap back on.
This is not a valid test in my opinion, totally subjective.

Without a tool that can read and display Live/Real Time data you cannot perform a test that can yield data.

Did you disconnect one of the front O2 sensors, wait until you get an O2 sensor code and figure out if the sensor is in the correct location/wires connect properly?
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temps, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose fan switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 11-26-2013, 08:29 PM   #20
sfcjetjr
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DTC and Fuel Trim issues Help PLEASE!

I switched the o2 sensors around precat and the codes started to show misfires on a couple of cylinders with fuel cut off codes. So switched them back to the original connections. Did not do on post cats o2's. And as you can see back to beginning but values changed a bit for ft bit load speed and temp where all pretty much the same as in beginning.


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