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Old 07-27-2010, 06:55 AM   #1
DubVersion
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Racing with FI

Hi guys,

on another forum i'm trying to defend the E46 M3 quality of OEM parts. I said that you can take the M3 with HPF kit or any of the sc kits from ESS or AA to a race track and punish it for a few hours, without having to worry about major issues with the tranny, crank or bearings.

I can understand that you need special breaks, suspension, tires and so forth, but the OEM drive train and engine can withstand the abuse. I understand that some kits require a small engine built, like piston and their rods.

*They* claim that no M3 can be used for the occasional amateur race, because "it will fall apart in a few hours".

So i guess i'm asking all of you that have a FI kit AND is regularly taking your car to the track the following questions:

- What FI are you using with how many horses/torque (rough estimate will do) ?
- What type of racing do you do ? How many miles / month/week roughly ?
- is your drive train still pretty much OEM ?
- Is your crankshaft still OEM ?
- did you have problems with ball bearing (except the wheels i figure) ?
- Any other comments about personal experience about the subject ?

Thanks for helping out. Maybe i'm wrong and in that case i want to be educated !

Greetings,

Jeroen

(Changed topic subject)
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Last edited by DubVersion; 07-28-2010 at 11:48 AM.
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Old 07-27-2010, 08:08 AM   #2
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do you have a getrag or a zf?
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Old 07-27-2010, 08:19 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by bluejeansonfire View Post
do you have a getrag or a zf?
I don't have an M3, hence my reach out for this question to you guys.

Which one is better ? Are they both OEM in the E46 (european !!) ?

greetings,

dub
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Old 07-27-2010, 04:28 PM   #4
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Little things like standard oil cooler make it stand out as a real performer on the track. Having had both a ASA 330ci and now a M3 asa blown e46. The 3.2 does a better job at keeping temps down even with its high strung nature and high compression with boost.


The nature of the m3 is to sustain and endure during track events and win.

"no M3 can be used for the occasional amateur race, because it will fall apart in a few hours" does not apply to the m3

maybe a 92 camry with cooling issues. or a 89 Jag..

but a motorsports 3, theyre smoking crack, if you need reinforcements just post the link.
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Old 07-28-2010, 01:21 AM   #5
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Little things like standard oil cooler make it stand out as a real performer on the track. Having had both a ASA 330ci and now a M3 asa blown e46. The 3.2 does a better job at keeping temps down even with its high strung nature and high compression with boost.


The nature of the m3 is to sustain and endure during track events and win.

"no M3 can be used for the occasional amateur race, because it will fall apart in a few hours" does not apply to the m3

maybe a 92 camry with cooling issues. or a 89 Jag..

but a motorsports 3, theyre smoking crack, if you need reinforcements just post the link.
Thanks MachRc, i guess you agree with me then.

how much do you race yourself ? And who else on this forum races a lot in a boosted M3 ?

The people that don't think an M3 can be boosted for racing claim that the tranny will fail; that the OEM tranny cannot withstand the extra power/torque. What's your experience on that ?

Greetings,

Jeroen
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Old 07-28-2010, 06:27 AM   #6
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I have been promoting lapping days for a couple of years and have seen a lot of cars. The BMWs are FAR the most reliable cars ... from the 330 to the M3 all years included.

The quality of the construction and especially the metallurgy quality of the parts is outstanding. They haven`t been made in China ...
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Old 07-28-2010, 01:39 PM   #7
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We've been tracking our turbo M3's for a few years now without incident. With the turbo near the rear of the engine and our EMS tuned for long duration races, underhood temps stay cool. Here's a link to lots of videos of our cars at the track. http://www.youtube.com/user/HPFChris?feature=chclk
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Old 07-28-2010, 02:03 PM   #8
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Link them to the LoadedCSL. That car has taken probably one of the worse abuse by continually lapping the ring. They are prepping it for the 24 Hours at the Nurburgring next year.
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Old 07-28-2010, 03:09 PM   #9
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Im sure mister vincent wont mind if I plug him in here. Hes got years of track time, and itch for data out of every detail part.


http://www.vsetrack.com/
http://www.e46fanatics.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=566054

and thats with a step transmission.
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Old 07-28-2010, 04:24 PM   #10
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thanks guys !

I'm pretty sure the kits itself and the engine last.
But what about the various transmission types of M3, clutches, crankshaft and head gaskets ?
Will the OEM parts survive hours of abuse at the track ?

greetings,

Jeroen
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Old 07-28-2010, 04:35 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DubVersion View Post
thanks guys !

I'm pretty sure the kits itself and the engine last.
But what about the various transmission types of M3, clutches, crankshaft and head gaskets ?
Will the OEM parts survive hours of abuse at the track ?

greetings,

Jeroen
Ask ESS...
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Old 07-28-2010, 04:55 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DubVersion View Post
thanks guys !

I'm pretty sure the kits itself and the engine last.
But what about the various transmission types of M3, clutches, crankshaft and head gaskets ?
Will the OEM parts survive hours of abuse at the track ?

greetings,

Jeroen
The E46 M3 uses a getrag transmission for both the manual and SMG. This is a similar transmission to the 2JZGTE Supra Transmission that is nearly bulletproof. We've never seen one fail yet.

We use the factory crankshaft in every built motor. We've run these up to 1022rwhp and have never seen a crankshaft failure.

We use the factory head gasket in our builds.

The OEM parts will survive years of abuse at the track. Proper maintenance will be required if the car is taken to the track.

ARP L19 head studs are required for built motors as the standard ARP's will stretch. We have them in stock if you need them.

Chris.
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Old 07-28-2010, 11:13 PM   #13
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My entire drivetrain is stock and I've got thousands of track miles on this car, and it's not even an M3. I've done up to 50 minutes of all out driving.. which is a hell of a long time, in "track time"...... I can't imagine an M3 not being able to put up with more than my car... that's what they were built for.
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Old 07-29-2010, 02:14 AM   #14
DubVersion
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Thanks again guys !

I guess the E46 BMW M3 really is a class on its own.
greetings,

Jeroen
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Old 07-29-2010, 06:12 AM   #15
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maybe the knock on the m3's was about drag racing and not driving school courses

Quote:
Originally Posted by DubVersion View Post
Thanks again guys !

I guess the E46 BMW M3 really is a class on its own.
greetings,

Jeroen
i agree with veryone the m3 is bulitt prof. on a road course but i will play the devil maybe the statements that that fellow heard is for the guys who drag race with s/c or turbo.....didn't taz break something in the rear of his car a while ago.. but he as one of the highest h/p cars in the states...

can you explain to the fellow that ask the question chris about drag racing
the m3 with high h/p.. maybe the knock was about drag racing..about the stock parts breaking.... can you talk a little about that chris....
i say that is what the knock was with the talk about the m3.....

hope veryone won't get on me about me bringing up the m3 drag racing with higher r/h/p....because i have a blown m3 myself
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Old 07-29-2010, 10:52 AM   #16
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you mean this old video that was posted m3forum
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Old 07-29-2010, 02:54 PM   #17
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All bets are off if you are "dragging" it.

Road course racing has proven the e46 chassis as pretty stout.
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Old 07-30-2010, 03:16 PM   #18
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MachRc, i love the video !

And about the rear axle break; it happened early on in the drag race; i figure if you're on the track in a race, you may want to get to the corner first too, so the start would not be so different ? Then again, what do i know...

The OT is about racing, not drag racing.

greetings,

Jeroen
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Old 07-30-2010, 06:11 PM   #19
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I've never had an issue with my kit on the track. Then again, I've never raced it.

Lots of people think drag strip when they say race, so were they referring to that? If it is drag racing, I will refer you to the video linked above. One of my favorites!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MachRc View Post
if you need reinforcements just post the link.
FIGHT...FIGHT...FIGHT!
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Old 07-31-2010, 03:11 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MachRc View Post
Im sure mister vincent wont mind if I plug him in here. Hes got years of track time, and itch for data out of every detail part.


http://www.vsetrack.com/
http://www.e46fanatics.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=566054

and thats with a step transmission.
Man...brings a tear to my eye to think that I am still relevant...sniff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DubVersion View Post
thanks guys !

I'm pretty sure the kits itself and the engine last.
But what about the various transmission types of M3, clutches, crankshaft and head gaskets ?
Will the OEM parts survive hours of abuse at the track ?

greetings,

Jeroen
I reckon there's someone here who participated in NASA TT with a FI M3. Can't recall his handle name though. Maybe he can chime in. Then there's Evosport's turbo M3 that used to race with BMW CR here in So Cal. Not sure if they are still competing with it.

I can't speak for M3/S54 though I can give some overall insights.

If the service length of a factory setup is Z, anytime you modify a factory setup, you shorten the service length of the car with Y, ie Y < Z. Now, if you track the modified setup religiously, the service length has been further reduced to X where X < Y < Z.

Notice that I use strict inequality unless you regularly service your car after every track event. The above relationship might be X <= Y <= Z.

IMO, tracking a NA setup is a lot easier than FI setup. Reason being there are less equipment/parts to service. This is coming from my experiences. Unless of course your sole responsibility is to drive the car and you have a team to support the car.

Short bursts of track events on the FI setup shouldn't hurt but that doesn't mean the car will run reliably at the next track event. Meaning, Bayesian belief system is not exactly applicable here. Reliability of mechanical parts tend to decrease over the time unless of course you service and maintain them regularly, otherwise X will just be shortened further from Y.

You brought up a good perspective of what about the service lengths of other equipments, ie transmission, engine internals. The short answer: service those as well after every other track event. Check for unusual signs of wear. Seems like a bit overwhelming. But think of it this way. Full blown race cars are serviced after every race so they can find/replace parts that have tendencies to fail. Other areas that I suggest you should add are suspension and chassis. These areas need to be maintained and often reinforced.

There is of course a different school of thought regarding upgrading parts for a longer service length. The fact is regardless, there is still an unknown service length for upgraded parts which can in turn affect the service lengths of other parts. FYI, when I rebuilt my engine (June 08), I opted for everything OEM for the engine internals. A decision that has caused bewilderment and ridicule among others. But at least I know what the service length is with a FI on OEM internals. That M54 with TM-12 6.5psi engine, my friend, lasted:

5 years
58 track events
105 track days
30k track miles
Buttonwillow (29), WSIR (18), Cal Speedway (9), Streets of Willow (4), Thunder Hill (1), Laguna Seca (1)

So since June 2008, I know if I go with the above reference, I can enjoy the car possibly for another 5 years given the number of track miles.

That said, it is important to set aside a budget for servicing. Too often, we focus on modifying/upgrading the car that we unintentionally ignored setting aside funds to maintain the car.
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