E46 BMW Social Directory E46 FAQ 3-Series Discussion Forums BMW Photo Gallery BMW 3-Series Technical Information E46 Fanatics - The Ultimate BMW Resource BMW Vendors General E46 Forum The Tire Rack's Tire Wheel Forum Forced Induction Forum The Off-Topic The E46 BMW Showroom For Sale, For Trade or Wanting to Buy

Welcome to the E46Fanatics forums. E46Fanatics is the premiere website for BMW 3 series owners around the world with interactive forums, a geographical enthusiast directory, photo galleries, and technical information for BMW enthusiasts.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Go Back   E46Fanatics > Tuning & Tech > Driveline, Engine & DME Tuning

Driveline, Engine & DME Tuning
Talk about driveline improvements, NA tuning and DME tuning your E46 BMW here. This includes diffs, intakes, exhausts, chips, software and OBD tuning.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 11-06-2010, 07:46 AM   #1
bigjae1976
Registered User
 
bigjae1976's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Earth
Posts: 11,407
My Ride: A car
Send a message via MSN to bigjae1976
Unhappy Problem! Loud rattle from underneath car at idle...now an oil leak too!

While driving back from the track here in Korea, I started to notice a rattle or grinding sound coming from under the car when I would decelerate with the clutch engaged between 2k-3k rpms. If I touched the gas or depressed the clutch, it would go away.

So I come home, park the car. Look underneath, no signs of fluid leakage. Checked the oil level...still there. I was thinking that I had a bad synchro or maybe I was hearing clutch chatter. Korea is hard on my clutch with all of these steep hills.

Then I'm heading out to grab some food, I start the car and there is this loud rattle at idle. It is much louder from underneath the car. Again, fluids look good, engine seems to be running fine. Everything seems fine except for this noise.

I have a UUC flywheel and I DO rev it out to 7000 RPM on the track. In fact, I get near 7k quite a bit on the track since I have to go from 5th to 3rd with a short braking zone. So I usually rev the engine to 6500rpm and drop down 2 gears.

Also, I spun the car about 20 months ago at Texas World Speedway

Could it be the oil pump nut? Is there anyway to confirm or deny that diagnosis without dropping the pan? This is my guess since I've done everything possible to loosen the oil pump nut.

The TOTAL PIA about being in Korea is you cannot buy BMW parts unless you take it in to a BMW service center and have them install. No such thing as an Auto Zone here and DIY is like a four letter word here. There is a lift that I can use, I can't leave my car stranded there for the 2 weeks it will take to get parts in.

Korea FTL!

Last edited by bigjae1976; 11-07-2010 at 04:18 AM.
bigjae1976 is offline   Reply With Quote
Ads by Google

Guests, get your FREE E46Fanatics.com membership to remove this ad.
Old 11-06-2010, 08:52 AM   #2
aggieE46
Keep it clean
 
aggieE46's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Royse City
Posts: 8,030
My Ride: 03 Evo, 07 Passat
Send a message via AIM to aggieE46
Doubt it's the oil pump nut. I hit 7k several times a day. When I checked my nut (har har) at 125k it was still tight.

Check your motor and tranny mounts.
__________________
aggieE46 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2010, 08:58 AM   #3
McSpeed
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,073
My Ride: 2005 ZHP TT Stg 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
While driving back from the track here in Korea, I started to notice:
  • a rattle or grinding sound coming from under the car when I would decelerate with the clutch engaged between 2k-3k rpms. If I touched the gas or depressed the clutch, it would go away
  • I start the car and there is this loud rattle at idle. It is much louder from underneath the car.
Bummer. I'll throw out some guesses.
I don't think it's OPN related - that would be more abruptly catastrophic.
If it's happening at idle or when decelerating...it's happening when something is unloaded...maybe driveline bushing related? But I dunno when things are unloaded the same at idle AND 2-3k with the clutch in...
So lifter tick from oil starvation? I thought lifter tick was more constant than this though. Do you have a baffle? Do you have an oil pressure gauge?
I guess exhaust leak is something to check off the list too.
If it happens at idle I'd say get underneath it and pinpoint it and go fromt here.
__________________


SOLD but fondly remembered...
Technique Tuning Stage 1 Turbo w/ Greddy Profec B Spec II | 3.07 Quaife
ATI Super Damper | Vaio Oil Pump | VAC Pan Baffle | SRE Organic Clutch
Turner Reinforcements | SPC Camber Arms | Powerflex FCABs & SFBs

Turbo Driveability Video

Horsepower vs. Torque
McSpeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2010, 08:59 AM   #4
badfast
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Here
Posts: 491
My Ride: A Car
Can you get a sound clip?
badfast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2010, 01:14 PM   #5
McSpeed
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,073
My Ride: 2005 ZHP TT Stg 1
Does the clutch pedal affect it? Throw out bearing?
__________________


SOLD but fondly remembered...
Technique Tuning Stage 1 Turbo w/ Greddy Profec B Spec II | 3.07 Quaife
ATI Super Damper | Vaio Oil Pump | VAC Pan Baffle | SRE Organic Clutch
Turner Reinforcements | SPC Camber Arms | Powerflex FCABs & SFBs

Turbo Driveability Video

Horsepower vs. Torque
McSpeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2010, 01:41 PM   #6
aggieE46
Keep it clean
 
aggieE46's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Royse City
Posts: 8,030
My Ride: 03 Evo, 07 Passat
Send a message via AIM to aggieE46
He said if he depressed the clutch it went away.

Shouldn't you be finishing your car!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McSpeed View Post
Does the clutch pedal affect it? Throw out bearing?
__________________
aggieE46 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2010, 06:19 PM   #7
McSpeed
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,073
My Ride: 2005 ZHP TT Stg 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by aggieE46 View Post
He said if he depressed the clutch it went away.
yikes I'd even quoted it

Quote:
Originally Posted by aggieE46 View Post
Shouldn't you be finishing your car!?
yeaaahhhhhhh
front subframe almost out....
__________________


SOLD but fondly remembered...
Technique Tuning Stage 1 Turbo w/ Greddy Profec B Spec II | 3.07 Quaife
ATI Super Damper | Vaio Oil Pump | VAC Pan Baffle | SRE Organic Clutch
Turner Reinforcements | SPC Camber Arms | Powerflex FCABs & SFBs

Turbo Driveability Video

Horsepower vs. Torque
McSpeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2010, 04:02 AM   #8
bigjae1976
Registered User
 
bigjae1976's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Earth
Posts: 11,407
My Ride: A car
Send a message via MSN to bigjae1976
Got a chance to look at it this morning. The rattle would go away if I revved the car in neutral. But the car would not go into gear with the engine running. I could definitely feel a vibration in the clutch pedal. Basically, I had to shut the car off, put it in reverse, and then turn the car back on to get it back into my parking spot. The car wouldn't really go in gear...like I had no clutch.

So I put the car up on jack stands and find some oil leakage. I'm down about .5 qt. I guess it started spraying out when I tried to move the car.

Most of the oil is near the area where the transmission bolts up to the engine. Oil is on the bottom of the oil pan all the way back to the drain bolt for the transmission. Nothing along the sides of the engine.

Again, I have a UUC lightweight flywheel. Did my clutch and rear main seal blow up?

I am uploading a video at idle.

Pics:

Suspension reinforcement


Oil pan from front of car...coated with oil


Bottom of the transmission...coated with oil


Where the transmission mounts to the engine


A shot of the oil pan from the rear


Close up of the bottom on the transmission
bigjae1976 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2010, 04:19 AM   #9
bigjae1976
Registered User
 
bigjae1976's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Earth
Posts: 11,407
My Ride: A car
Send a message via MSN to bigjae1976
the last thing I wanted to have in Korea...a major problem.
bigjae1976 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2010, 04:28 AM   #10
bigjae1976
Registered User
 
bigjae1976's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Earth
Posts: 11,407
My Ride: A car
Send a message via MSN to bigjae1976
bigjae1976 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2010, 04:50 AM   #11
badfast
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Here
Posts: 491
My Ride: A Car
Looks like the transmission has to be removed. Sounds like something may have broke on your clutch. Curious though, after you start it in gear and move forward, can you shift to 2nd gear regularly?

edit: slim chance, but you may have broken your throw out bearing. Either way the transmission is going to have to be pulled.

Last edited by badfast; 11-07-2010 at 04:52 AM.
badfast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2010, 09:24 AM   #12
bigjae1976
Registered User
 
bigjae1976's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Earth
Posts: 11,407
My Ride: A car
Send a message via MSN to bigjae1976
nope...can't get it in any gear with the engine running. Didn't try going from 1st to 2nd.

So the engine oil is from the rear main seal?
bigjae1976 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2010, 10:18 AM   #13
///Orient3
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Maryland
Posts: 356
My Ride: can't be defined
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
nope...can't get it in any gear with the engine running. Didn't try going from 1st to 2nd.

So the engine oil is from the rear main seal?
When I have more time later, I'll try to help figure out your problem.

In regards to the source of the oil leak, a bad filter housing leak will cause the same look in regards to where the oil has flown to and covered your engine/transmission. I'm not suggesting that is where the leak is, but the problem is that the way the engine is positioned, most oil leaks run that way and make it seem like the leak is in places it isn't. I apologize if I haven't articulated this very well, I'm working on little sleep today.
__________________
///Orient3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2010, 10:25 AM   #14
McSpeed
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,073
My Ride: 2005 ZHP TT Stg 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
nope...can't get it in any gear with the engine running. Didn't try going from 1st to 2nd.

So the engine oil is from the rear main seal?
Looks like rear main seal leakage to me...the noise sounds like it has to do with light components...of hard plastic and metal...so throwout bearing vibrating on the guide tube? Since it won't shift while it's running I'm guessing the throwout bearing is not able to disengage the pressure plate - so something is broken & free floating in there. Or maybe the pressure plate is falling apart. I don't get how clutch mechanism failure and rear main seal leakage would be related though.

mrshelley would know this for sure.
__________________


SOLD but fondly remembered...
Technique Tuning Stage 1 Turbo w/ Greddy Profec B Spec II | 3.07 Quaife
ATI Super Damper | Vaio Oil Pump | VAC Pan Baffle | SRE Organic Clutch
Turner Reinforcements | SPC Camber Arms | Powerflex FCABs & SFBs

Turbo Driveability Video

Horsepower vs. Torque
McSpeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2010, 11:56 AM   #15
///Orient3
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Maryland
Posts: 356
My Ride: can't be defined
A couple quick observations/suggestions for now...

If you can start the car on jack stands, or however you are looking underneath it, it may help you locate the source of the oil. I've seen leaks of those proportions on M54s, and if it is coming out that fast, you may be able to pinpoint it by the way the oil is flowing. Obviously, top it up first and don't leave it on too long.

Are your headers bolted up tightly to your exhaust, I can't tell from the pics, but it looks like they might be loose.

The revving may not stop the sound you are experiencing, it may very well just mask it.

Pull the slave cylinder, push the throw out arm back with a screwdriver and use a flashlight to look into the transmission, that may tell you how far up you have a leak, if there is one there.
__________________
///Orient3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2010, 03:52 PM   #16
///Orient3
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Maryland
Posts: 356
My Ride: can't be defined
Finally just got a chance to listen to the video and look at the pictures more closely. It is definitely a rattling noise and not a grinding noise.

From my previous post:
I was in a rush earlier and didn't look at the pictures closely, noticed that I thought the header to exhaust flanges might be loose because of those braces (not that they would have anything to do with the oil leak anyways. Also, now that I got a chance to listen to the video, it does seem like the noise subsides as opposed to being drowned out by the engine.

Still take my other two suggestions, they may tell you a lot.

I really don't think it is the rear main seal. How long did you have your car running for that .5 a qt to spill out? My guess is not very long, which would tell me that it is leaking from a pressurized port, and the rear main seal isn't pressurized. Like I said, oil leaks all seem to leak back to that spot on the transmission, and if it was the rear main seal, how did the oil manage to make it up to your slave cylinder? It seems to me that the clutch and leaking issues MAY be seperate.

I may have a solid theory, but I want to make sure I understand your story. This is how I read it:

You leave the track and everything is fine. On the way home, while driving with the car in gear, you start to hear a rattling noise. This noise subsides when you either rev the car, or press the clutch in. No fluids are leaking at this time. Later, you start the car and the rattling noise is louder than it was before, but you aren't leaking fluids, and the clutch is operating normally. You drive the car and park it when you get back. The next day you start up the car again in neutral, and the noise subsides when you rev the engine, but you can no longer shift into gear. ***WHAT DID THE CLUTCH PEDAL FEEL LIKE AT THIS POINT? DID YOU TRY STARTING THE CAR IN GEAR WITH THE CLUTCH IN? IF SO, DID THE CLUTCH RELEASE NORMALLY (no slipping)?*** At this point you jack up the car and notice the oil leak.

Part of this sounds similar to a problem I had. That rattling could very well be your throw out arm. This would be caused by something like your pivot pin melting, the clip stretching, or your slave cylinder hyper extending. Remove the slave cylinder and look into the transmission through the hole the slave cylinder goes into. Grab the throw out arm with a pair of needle nose pliers and *gently* check its travel to see if it seems like it is pivoting correctly. It should be relatively easy to tell if there is too much play in it. I think some hydraulic fluid may have been disguised by the oil. If you can do that, tell me if I have the chain of events right, and answer the questions I asked, I really think I can give you a solid plan of attack if not an outright answer. Good luck!
__________________
///Orient3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2010, 05:10 PM   #17
bigjae1976
Registered User
 
bigjae1976's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Earth
Posts: 11,407
My Ride: A car
Send a message via MSN to bigjae1976
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///Orient3 View Post
I may have a solid theory, but I want to make sure I understand your story. This is how I read it:

You leave the track and everything is fine. On the way home, while driving with the car in gear, you start to hear a rattling noise. This noise subsides when you either rev the car, or press the clutch in. No fluids are leaking at this time. You drive the car and park it when you get back. I attempt to drive it about an hour later (car has cooled off) and I hear the rattle noise at idle. I don't even move the car, I drive my other car.

The next day you start up the car again in neutral, and the noise subsides when you rev the engine, but you can no longer shift into gear. At this point you jack up the car and notice the oil leak.
I made a small edit to the story buts its basically right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///Orient3 View Post
***WHAT DID THE CLUTCH PEDAL FEEL LIKE AT THIS POINT? DID YOU TRY STARTING THE CAR IN GEAR WITH THE CLUTCH IN? IF SO, DID THE CLUTCH RELEASE NORMALLY (no slipping)?***
The clutch feels lighter and there is a vibration in the clutch pedal. It does feel like it is coming from behind the driver's footwell.

I do appreciate your help!
bigjae1976 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2010, 06:48 PM   #18
///Orient3
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Maryland
Posts: 356
My Ride: can't be defined
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
I made a small edit to the story buts its basically right.



The clutch feels lighter and there is a vibration in the clutch pedal. It does feel like it is coming from behind the driver's footwell.

I do appreciate your help!
So basically your clutch doesn't work right now, right?

I'm also guessing that vibration in the clutch pedal is when you push the pedal in. It feels like the pedal is pulsating when you push it in?... The pedal has some resistance, but it has also clearly lost pressure and firmness from what it was?

Pop off that slave cylinder, it is only two 13mm nuts. That feeling in the clutch pedal you are describing happens when the slave cylinder piston hyperextends, pops out of the cylinder, and opens up the hydraulic system. People have had problems with this when bleeding the slave cylinder because there is so much hydraulic pressure, but it can also happen when the slave cylinder is in the transmission. When you press the clutch in, you are pumping hydraulic fluid out of the system, but through a small passage, hence the pulsating and resistance in the pedal. I would bet a pretty decent amount, if not all of that fluid is hydraulic brake/clutch fluid.

This could explain both the clutch problems and fluid leak, and if it isn't, you ruled it out by spending three minutes removing two nuts.
__________________
///Orient3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2010, 07:02 PM   #19
bigjae1976
Registered User
 
bigjae1976's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Earth
Posts: 11,407
My Ride: A car
Send a message via MSN to bigjae1976
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///Orient3 View Post
So basically your clutch doesn't work right now, right?

I'm also guessing that vibration in the clutch pedal is when you push the pedal in. It feels like the pedal is pulsating when you push it in?... The pedal has some resistance, but it has also clearly lost pressure and firmness from what it was?

Pop off that slave cylinder, it is only two 13mm nuts. That feeling in the clutch pedal you are describing happens when the slave cylinder piston hyperextends, pops out of the cylinder, and opens up the hydraulic system. People have had problems with this when bleeding the slave cylinder because there is so much hydraulic pressure, but it can also happen when the slave cylinder is in the transmission. When you press the clutch in, you are pumping hydraulic fluid out of the system, but through a small passage, hence the pulsating and resistance in the pedal. I would bet a pretty decent amount, if not all of that fluid is hydraulic brake/clutch fluid.

This could explain both the clutch problems and fluid leak, and if it isn't, you ruled it out by spending three minutes removing two nuts.
Yeah, it could be pulsating. I'll check it out this evening. It could be hydraulic fluid. I haven't bled my clutch in 1 year. My garage is dark and my nose is stopped up. So it could very well not be engine oil.

I know it is not tranny fluid since I use royal purple.
bigjae1976 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2010, 07:03 PM   #20
bigjae1976
Registered User
 
bigjae1976's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Earth
Posts: 11,407
My Ride: A car
Send a message via MSN to bigjae1976
Oh yeah, thanks for the help ///Orient3. When I stop through Maryland, I owe you dinner and a big kiss on the cheek
bigjae1976 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Censor is OFF





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
(c) 1999 - 2011 performanceIX Inc - privacy policy - terms of use