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Updated: Getrag Loose 5th Gear - Ideas on a fix [now with DIY]

99K views 105 replies 23 participants last post by  cyberkaa 
#1 · (Edited)
There are plenty of threads on the shift pin service on ZF transmissions. After Googling it, I've only seen a handful of references to a similar problem on Getrag boxes where the shifter doesn't return to the neutral position between 3rd and 4th from the 5th gear gate.

UPDATE: DIY in post 20.

The transmission I'm working on in particular is a Getrag S5D 250G from a 2000 323ci. When moving the shift lever side to side, the reverse gate is nice and springy and even the 1-2 gate has resistance, but 5th gives me nothing. It's hard to tell it apart from 3-4 and that means potential mis-shifts into 5th when looking for 3rd (or the potentially disastrous opposite).

DISCLAIMER: I'm new to servicing transmissions, so I've had to make educated guesses about the functions of various parts.

I looked at the various springs I can access from the outside of the trans case and there are three springs (#19 in the picture) under the sealing cap that press down on three balls. It seems like there are detents in each of the three shift rods to accommodate them. I guess they're there to resist shift rod movement so as to hold the gear.

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=BM33&mospid=47709&btnr=23_0129&hg=23&fg=15
It looks like the locking pin and spring (#3, #4) will fit against the detents in the selector shaft and provide the "in-gear" feel as the selector rod moves in and out. Seems somewhat redundant with the 3 springs+balls above, but I assume it's a lot better at keeping the gearshift in place.

I've deduced that #9 and #11 in the pic below are the reverse and 5th gear return springs, respectively, so I'm going to pull those out and replace them along with the caps and locking pins. The drawing is misleading, but it looks like the roll pin (#5) sits on the cam (#4), which moves between the two locking pins (hence the beveled edges on the pins).

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=BM33&mospid=47709&btnr=23_0128&hg=23&fg=15

Here's a much better picture from a post on m3forum where a member was converting the M3 Getrag transmission from SMG to manual 6spd. In that conversion, all of the springs and locking pins have to be added back. The cam is #1 as labeled in the pic and the wheel on the end of it is the roll pin, which is resting between the two locking pins.

Original post: http://m3forum.net/m3forum/showpost.php?p=3416160&postcount=15

Just in case, I'm going to service both the 5th and reverse gear pins. I will be reusing the washers and snap rings.
Parts list:
2x 23127527439 Sealing cover
1x 23311228393 Reverse gear compression spring
1x 23311228392 Reverse gear locking pin
1x 23311224215 5th gear compression spring
1x 23311224130 5th gear locking pin

DIY to follow. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
 
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#2 ·
I have the same problem. This is what I've lifted from another site:

In short, there is a fifth gear pin which is supposed to move freely (back-n-forth) inside a bushing located in the transmission. This pin is spring-loaded, which returns your shift lever to center. What happens (and usually when the tranny is cold) is when the shift lever is moved to the right of the gate, the pin goes into the bushing and becomes lodged, making the shift lever stay right instead of returning center. BMW released a bushing repair-kit (#23-11-7-542-726) intending to fix this issue. FYI, members from the thread on Bimmerforums have had success with the repair-kit, resolving this "5th-gear-sticky" issue. BTW, when the shift lever finally returns center, that "click" sound you hear is the pin finally dislodging itself in the bushing (returning into its original position).

The catch for R&R of the bushing repair-kit: You are required to drop the transmission. The bushing/pin location is on the side of the tranny and you'll need all the room possible to remove the old bushing from (which is usually seized inside) the tranny.
 
#5 ·
I came across a link of a link of a link of a link once... could never find it again. It was a VERY detailed thread that showed the parts that where involved the tools need to do the job it was extremely long and detailed.

The new bushings from what I remember are now coated straight out of the dealer, so the inside walls now have a white coating as opposed to the ones we have, which are not! The getrag diagrams dont really show where you can access those springs and bushing but the parts seem to be fairly cheap. Hopefully you dont have to seperate the transmission housings :S

I'm going to be doing this in the summer and I always document everything and put it on YouTube and in the DIY section. So if you willing to wait till then you can get at least an idea of what to go, considering our transmission as somewhat different.
 
#6 ·
I've read several of the ZF DIYs. Here are a couple that might ring a bell:
http://webspace.ringling.edu/~dplassma/bmw_diy/shift_pins/shift_pins.html
http://www.unofficialbmw.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=33179&sid=20bda85ebb3b314cee24b322759ff068

No, you don't need to pull the housing apart. They're easily serviced from the outside of the trans once it's removed from the car. The trans I'm working on is sitting on the floor of my garage anyway.

Parts have been ordered. I think I've got enough background on it to dive in head first as soon as they arrive. :)
 
#9 · (Edited)
Yep, I've got a copy of that SIB as well. Transmissions ending in "Z" are ZF. There are no "G" (Getrag) transmissions mentioned, hence this thread.
 
#12 ·
It's an auto to manual swap, so I removed the torque converter and installed a new clutch.
 
#17 ·
Exactly. Yes, it would fit in place, but we're on a tight schedule and don't have time to source another trans.
 
#19 ·
Sort of. It will still need to be shipped, though.

The other issue is the Shift Kit/DSSR I ordered is for our current transmission. So, it's not as simple as just picking up new hardware unless we scrap the project, return the parts, reorder and shoot for it again next year.

We are very close to being done. We are just trying to resolve this issue before the last part arrives early next week.
 
#20 · (Edited)
5th and Reverse locking pin DIY

Once again, the problem is that the shifter does not return to the normal neutral position between 3rd and 4th. It flops back and forth between the 3-4 gate and the 5th gear gate.

Resting in neutral in the fifth gear gate:


Normal neutral position:


Locate the locking pin bores on the left side of the transmission:


Remove the 5th gear sealing cap. I didn't have a punch available so I used a tiny star bit on an extension. Punch into the middle and lever the cap out.

Shift into first or second gear and remove the snap ring using snap ring pliers. The spring and washer are still under compression and will smack you in the face if you're not careful. I held the assembly down with my thumb as I removed the snap ring with the pliers.


Snap ring and washer out.


Remove the 5th gear spring. The new spring felt a little stiffer than the old one.


At this point you can remove the locking pin. Shift the transmission into 5th gear. The roll pin will push the locking pin out to the farthest extent of its normal travel. It'll also prevent the pin from sliding back in as you try to remove it. This 5th gear pin on this transmission was completely jammed. I added some fresh ATF to try to get it to move, but it didn't help much. The pin doesn't come out far enough to get a good grip on it with pliers, either. Luckily, there's a hole in the center of the pin so it's possible to hook something into it. I used a long thin screw bent slightly at the end to yank it out (see last pic).

A view of the bore. There's a liner just as in the ZF transmissions. I couldn't find the part number so I couldn't replace it, but the procedure would be the same as in the ZF DIY threads. The roll pin is visible through the bore.


The liner:


Lube the locking pin with some ATF and put the transmission back into 5th if you moved the shifter. Install the locking pin with the beveled edge facing the roll pin, towards to middle of the two bores, i.e. facing down for 5th gear. Follow up with the new spring and the washer. I found it was easier to install the snap ring if the washer was first anchored in the snap ring groove.


Push the snap ring in until it is fully seated in the groove. You can test the shifter at this point. Work it back and forth between the gates and if all went well, you should have a nice springy feeling when moving the lever towards the 5th gear gate.


Once you're satisfied it's working, tap a new sealing cap in and repeat the above procedure for the reverse locking pin.


The reverse locking pin and spring are noticeably shorter. The spring is also much stiffer.

All sealed up.


Used parts. The screw I used to pull the pins out is to the right.



Result:
The lever now rests at neutral between 3rd and 4th as it should. 5th gear has just the right amount of resistance to let know you've found the gear. Reverse isn't nearly as notchy as it used to be either. :)
 
#26 ·
:thumbsup:
If you can find the bore liners that I talked about, I would highly recommend replacing those, too. If not, maybe file them down a little with a reamer and flush the trans, but that's a little ghetto.
I got in touch with a local transmission specialist and hopefully they'll be able to tell me more about the liners when their builder gets back after New Year's.
 
#24 ·
Kalim, now that you've done this, what do you think the odds are of being able to do with without dropping the trans?

Any chance of maybe reaching it from inside the car with the center console removed or something?

Or what if I borrowed a 10 year old from Jay with skinny arms... still can't get to it without dropping the trans, huh?
 
#27 ·
With the Getrag, difficult, but just might be possible to do this without dropping the trans. I don't think there's an easy way to go in from above without cutting a window into the sheet metal of the trans tunnel.

You can see where the bores are in my DIY pics. Here's where they are relative to the tunnel (right above the slave cylinder):


With the trans lowered like that, you might be able to get some tools in there, but you'd be doing it blind.
 
#28 ·
Getrags are set up a little differently than ZFs. The shifter detents that provide the in-gear feel for the forward-backwards motion, e.g. 3rd vs. neutral vs. 4th, are set by locking pin #3 in this diagram:

That's higher up than the 5th/reverse pins, but also further back, so might be a bit easier to access with the trans still attached to the car. I think if your shifter is popping out of gear, that's what you want to replace.

The shift forks are held in place by the detent balls and springs (3x #19 in the pic above), so I would guess if gears want to grind that those balls and springs need to be replaced.
 
#31 ·
Removing the reverse compression spring entirely?

thanks for the very detailed and easy to follow write-up

I was recently permanently injured, and therefore need to soften my reverse compression spring or buy a new car with an auto or double clutch trans. I love my e46 too much to do that.

Does anyone think my car will be un-drivable if I simply remove the reverse gear compression spring? I'm thinking it will obviously be more dangerous, but that perhaps it will still be drivable.

nobody can possibly know how long I've been searching for a thread that might show me how to make this extremely uncommon modification, and Kalim has done that. Thanks for any thoughts.
 
#32 ·
thanks for the very detailed and easy to follow write-up

I was recently permanently injured, and therefore need to soften my reverse compression spring or buy a new car with an auto or double clutch trans. I love my e46 too much to do that.

Does anyone think my car will be un-drivable if I simply remove the reverse gear compression spring? I'm thinking it will obviously be more dangerous, but that perhaps it will still be drivable.

nobody can possibly know how long I've been searching for a thread that might show me how to make this extremely uncommon modification, and Kalim has done that. Thanks for any thoughts.
Hey, neighbor. No prob! Really sorry to hear about the injury. Hopefully we can figure something out to make it work.

I don't think removing the spring altogether is a great idea. When 5th gets "loose," you can push gently to the left and you'll feel resistance before you get to the 1-2 gate, so you can at least tell 4th from 5th with some practice. On the reverse side, all you'll feel is that same big spring which provides resistance when you push to 1-2 from 3-4. That'll make it very difficult to tell reverse from 1st, and that's exactly the reason why the trans is designed with a stiff reverse spring.

Maybe you can use a 5th gear spring cut to the same length as the reverse spring. If you can put up with that much resistance in the opposite direction, I think it might be safe enough. (Disclaimer: only an idea; not implying it's actually safe).
Another idea would be to get a generic spring from McMaster or a specialty shop like Fastenal with a more agreeable rate. That might take some measurement/experimentation to figure out. You'd want something just springy enough to let you know you're going to go past 1-2 without requiring a ton of force to get into the gate.
 
#33 ·
Re: removing reverse compression spring

thanks those are great ideas. I'm going to order a replacement reverse & fifth spring right now so I can take them to Fastenal and talk to them about a replacement/modification. I've heard that cutting a spring without having the proper tools to reshape the end can be problematic, so I'm glad you were able to recommend a specialty shop.

The amount of resistance that the fifth gear compression spring provides should not be a problem – it's just that Germanic medieval torture device spring they loaded into the reverse.

I do have one question, because I am slightly worried that a custom spring could lead to the seizing problem that you had with the fifth gear pin:

Let us imagine again that I simply remove the reverse spring:

Since there seems to be about 1.5 inches of travel leftward from the 1-2 gate before you are capable of pushing up to get into reverse, would I still have a significantly greater amount of travel from neutral to reverse (as compared to only about 0.5 inch of travel to get to first gear from neutral), which would basically notify me that I was going into reverse regardless of whether or not there was resistance?

Or, am I just imagining/exaggerating this "noticeable distance differential"? Perhaps I would just end up with a shifter that floated between neutral, 1-2 Gate, and the reverse gate all the time.

sorry for being such a prolific question-asker. I'm glad to finally set up an account on fanatics, and I plan on helping other people with their questions some day.
 
#34 ·
thanks those are great ideas. I'm going to order a replacement reverse & fifth spring right now so I can take them to Fastenal and talk to them about a replacement/modification. I've heard that cutting a spring without having the proper tools to reshape the end can be problematic, so I'm glad you were able to recommend a specialty shop.

The amount of resistance that the fifth gear compression spring provides should not be a problem – it's just that Germanic medieval torture device spring they loaded into the reverse.

I do have one question, because I am slightly worried that a custom spring could lead to the seizing problem that you had with the fifth gear pin:

Let us imagine again that I simply remove the reverse spring:

Since there seems to be about 1.5 inches of travel leftward from the 1-2 gate before you are capable of pushing up to get into reverse, would I still have a significantly greater amount of travel from neutral to reverse (as compared to only about 0.5 inch of travel to get to first gear from neutral), which would basically notify me that I was going into reverse regardless of whether or not there was resistance?

Or, am I just imagining/exaggerating this "noticeable distance differential"? Perhaps I would just end up with a shifter that floated between neutral, 1-2 Gate, and the reverse gate all the time.

sorry for being such a prolific question-asker. I'm glad to finally set up an account on fanatics, and I plan on helping other people with their questions some day.
Not a problem. You're asking intelligent questions, so I don't mind answering at all. Just don't ask what oil you should use. :rofl:


Yes, it would be ideal to have one that's wound to length with flat ends. Fastenal should stock or at least be able to order a spring to spec.

I've had other people who drove my cars (all with Getrags) complain about how much force it takes to get into reverse, so you're definitely not alone.

If you remove the reverse spring, the distance to reverse won't change at all and the shifter won't float freely. The torsion spring (labeled #4 in red in the big picture in my original post) that pushes the shifter back to neutral between 3 and 4 still resists movement all the way to reverse, but telling 1-2 apart from R would be a guess based on distance. You could do it, but I don't recommend it. The issue I see is that there's nothing to prevent you from accidentally going into R instead of 1 in a hurry, which could be catastrophic. It sounds like you're the only person who drives your car and you'll know it better than anyone else, but the shifter gets sloppy as the bushes wear out. There may be a situation, too, where someone else needs to move it (at the alignment shop, for example) and I think it would be an accident waiting to happen.

My vote is to get the minimum spring needed to provide enough resistance to tell the gates apart. If you're worried about the pin seizing up, take a reamer and file the bore liner down a little bit or use a lathe and take off a couple thousandths from the pin until it moves smoothly. It's not supposed to stick, but I guess the liner gets coated in particulates and the spring gets weak, both leading to that situation.
 
#35 ·
you have sold me on installing a spring, given the idea of a mechanic or a valet getting confused. We know how difficult it can be to get reimbursed for damage in situations like that.

Guess it's time to order the parts, head over to fastenall, and get my hands dirty.

Do you/anyone have a recommendation for a cheap local mechanic that could help me drop my transmission and put it back in? (Dang, now I'm thinking I should just replace the clutch while I'm in there.)
 
#37 ·
:thumbsup:

I would offer my services, but I have a huge backlog at the moment. Which city are you in? I might be able to recommend someone nearby.
 
#38 ·
With this particular issue, there's nothing wrong with the gear itself. It's just difficult to tell 5th and 3rd apart, which could lead to engine damage. It's well worth the fix.
 
#39 ·
Thanks again Kalim. I live in Palo Alto and work in San Jose. I don't mind going to any mechanic throughout the bay.

I probably won't be hard-pressed to do the job for 1 to 3 months because I basically can't even drive right now. So in case you free up and are interested in some extra cash/beer around then I'll send you a PM in the future.

Until then, a shop recommendation would be great. I have done all of my own work since my first car, but it looks like I'm going to be needing a good mechanic going forward.
 
#40 ·
In that case, I'll probably be able to help you out when the time comes. :)

BTM Motorwerks in Campbell is pretty good if you're looking for a shop in the meantime.
 
#41 ·
Did you ever find out if you can use the bushing kits for the ZF trans on the Getrag? I love the idea of using the urethane bushings over the metal ones.

I'm in the same situation, I have a Getrag sitting in my garage waiting to be installed. I want to service it first and it is showing the same problem with 5th gear.
 
#42 ·
I don't have measurements for the ZF vs. the Getrag, so I can't say.
 
#44 ·
This is with the Getrag GS6-37BZ in the ZHP, correct?
I haven't taken one of those apart, but the setup should be very similar. When moving the shifter to the left, there are actually two sources of resistance. One is the relatively weak spring that keeps the shifter centered at 3-4. You press against that to get to 1-2. The second, much stronger source is what I called the reverse spring in the DIY above, since that's what you overcome to get to R. That spring might be broken or the pin might be jammed in the bore. In either case, the result is the same, i.e. you won't get much feedback to distinguish 1-2 from R.
 
#45 · (Edited)
Hi. I came across this web-site after intensive search for a solution of my problem.

I have a E39 2001 520i Touring with sports (lowered) suspension, with S5D 250G - TAJT manual gearbox, with 2,2 liter benzin M54 engine.

Yesterday my wife was coming back from the hospital when the first gear suddenly disappeared. She stopped on red light and when tried to put in 1st gear, there was a noise of something and the engine had stopped. She started the engine again and put in 1st gear, but the car won't move. She tried then the 2nd gear and she could finally reach home.
Later same day I did some testing on my own. All gears except the 1st, work fine. The clutch is ok too. When shifting there is no noise or other suspicious sounds. Shifting is good too. When I put in 1st gear, the car won't just move. I can press acceleration as much as I want, nothing happens and nothing, except motor, is being heard.

I see this forum is quite informative, and I wish if someone could give me a hint, if my gearbox can be still repaired or should I look for a another, used one.

Also, I see someone gave an idea of putting a 6-speed gearbox; can this really be achieved? If yes, what is the identification number of the gearbox?

Thanx in advance.
 
#47 ·
Hello. Your question is a bit off-topic for this thread and deserves its own thread in the General forum, but I'll answer here for now.

Unfortunately, that sounds like internal damage to the gears or shift forks. At least in my region, it's much easier and cheaper to find a used gearbox than to try and repair the gear set.

You can convert to a 6-speed, but you will have to replace other components as well (shifter, drive shaft, maybe differential input flange, etc.). The most popular choices are the E46 M3 gearbox or the E46 330 gearbox.
 
#55 ·
So here are the part numbers if you want to do 5th and reverse:

2x 23127527439 Sealing cover
1x 23311228393 Reverse gear compression spring
1x 23311228392 Reverse gear locking pin
1x 23311224215 5th gear compression spring
1x 23311224130 5th gear locking pin

but what about the rest of the great? If I'm going to do some, I'm going to do all of them. What are the rest of the part numbers that I need?
 
#56 ·
See the first realoem links in the first post.

Keep in mind that the pin bore liners aren't listed parts.
 
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