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Gun Talk
Are you a gun fanatic as well? If so, you'll want to talk to other owners about what you own in this forum.

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Old 12-21-2010, 11:30 AM   #41
ThEnder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Po View Post
Wouldn't it be wonderful if everybody did what they SHOULD have done? Wait... then you wouldn't need a gun. Then what?


That's the scenario that fuels you guys paranoia, isn't it? What ifs.
Hey, you don't have to what if anything. We were there. In the wild wild west, a few hundred years ago. Everybody carried guns.
Every little confrontation ended up with a corpse.
We evolved out of that situation. We as in the majority. Look at the entire world. Look at other civilized countries. There's a reason why your way of thinking is the minority. You just can't see it, that's all.
We may have passed the point where it is necessary to carry a gun, but that still does not mean we should not be allowed to own them, or even carry.

Almost every anti-gun argument makes a false equivalence between guns and murder, and says that fewer guns mean fewer murders. But where is your evidence?

America's struggle with violent crime comes from our mentality, not from our firearms. Look at Switzerland, they have tons of guns, even full automatics, yet practically no murder or violent crime. Then look at Japan, where there are almost no guns, but there is still a vibrant and violent criminal culture despite a lack of guns.

There's crime out of the way, now let's talk about government. Why do anti-gun individuals believe it is ok to take guns away from law abiding citizens, while allowing the police force to continue to carry? You might say that it is because it's the duty of the police to protect the citizens...but then you would be wrong. We already know from several supreme court cases that police do not have such an obligation. Furthermore, you must consider the history of our nation, as well as others. We are all here, doing what we do today, because private citizens were able to exert power through the use of guns. If you remove the capacity for those same individuals to defend themselves and their freedom, you remove a check on government power that helps validate our nation today.
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Old 12-21-2010, 11:42 AM   #42
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We may have passed the point where it is necessary to carry a gun, but that still does not mean we should not be allowed to own them, or even carry.
The part in bold says it all, the rest is a straw man argument. Nobody here said you can't own them. You should be able to buy any guns you want. You should even be able to carry them (unconcealed, to boot) in your own house. What you do with them is your business (as long as you don't shoot through the walls).

There is no reason to carry a gun in public. Even the current law says very explicitly CONCEALED. Can you reflect on that and realize why?
The matter is one of public safety. You can't say for sure everyone is well trained or as cool headed as you are.
If we could make that argument stick, our highways should be like Autobahn, because I'm well trained at high speeds.
The way it is... it's the minimum common denominator. And when it comes to such a definite matter as life or death, the MCD is NO GUNS in public areas.
But that's already sort of de facto. The anti-gun people want the next step, which is... no guns accessible to you in public (so you can't make that fatal mistake during the heat of an altercation).
Wanna shoot your frustrations off, go to a range.

Last edited by Master Po; 12-21-2010 at 11:44 AM.
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Old 12-21-2010, 11:59 AM   #43
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The part in bold says it all, the rest is a straw man argument. Nobody here said you can't own them. You should be able to buy any guns you want. You should even be able to carry them (unconcealed, to boot) in your own house. What you do with them is your business (as long as you don't shoot through the walls).
There are several who have suggested that it should not be legal to own any guns, for any reason. Otherwise, what is the point of bringing up an accidental home shooting?

Just for the record, I do not carry a gun. I own several, and I do believe in the right to carry. I would also like to clarify that in many cases we may have passed the point where we need to carry, but there are still several where we have not.

Fortunately, I live in a safe area where I do not feel that my life would be threatened. However, I have traveled to many places, and even know of some nearby, where I would feel much more comfortable if I had a firearm for protection. The fact is that guns are an excellent way to level a playing field.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Po View Post
There is no reason to carry a gun in public. Even the current law says very explicitly CONCEALED. Can you reflect on that and realize why?
The matter is one of public safety. You can't say for sure everyone is well trained or as cool headed as you are.
If we could make that argument stick, our highways should be like Autobahn, because I'm well trained at high speeds.
The way it is... it's the minimum common denominator. And when it comes to such a definite matter as life or death, the MCD is NO GUNS in public areas.
But that's already sort of de facto. The anti-gun people want the next step, which is... no guns accessible to you in public (so you can't make that fatal mistake during the heat of an altercation).
Wanna shoot your frustrations off, go to a range.
So why do we allow the police to carry a sidearm and backup on their person, and keep a rifle and shotgun in their car. I was actually issued a ticket for having no front license plates, and the entire time the cop was talking to me about my lack of plates, he had his hand on his Glock.

Why do you suggest that it is not OK for private citizens to carry weapons, but it is OK for others?
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Old 12-21-2010, 12:14 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThEnder View Post
We may have passed the point where it is necessary to carry a gun
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Po View Post
The part in bold says it all, the rest is a straw man argument.
I know I slept in a little this morning, but did I miss something? Was a solution to all crime, evil and criminal acts resolved early this morning? Is there no zero chance of an enemy invasion to our country? Is there no longer any chance at all that the citizens of this country will ever face a tyrannical government we need to fight against? Are the food supplies so abundant that we'll never require a gun to hunt for our food? Are all dogs now genetically born so that they'll never leave their yard or attack someone on the street?

Awesome, I'm going back to sleep



Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Po View Post
There is no reason to carry a gun in public.
Again, no crime ever happens in public? It only happens in your house?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Po View Post
Even the current law says very explicitly CONCEALED. Can you reflect on that and realize why?
Can you back up your post with facts? How about case law or a statute? In PA, and many other states there is no such thing as a Concealed Carry Permit nor is there any law that requires anyone to conceal. Further, anyone 18+ can openly carry a firearm without any permission or license.......(GASP) In public!

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Originally Posted by Master Po View Post
The matter is one of public safety.
NOT carrying my firearm is not a matter of public safety nor mine.... it is a matter of safety to criminals that I am defenseless. Gun laws make criminals safer, not law-abiding citizens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Po View Post
If we could make that argument stick, our highways should be like Autobahn, because I'm well trained at high speeds.
Driving is a privilege not a right such as firearm ownership as protected in our Constitution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Po View Post
And when it comes to such a definite matter as life or death, the MCD is NO GUNS in public areas.
But that's already sort of de facto. The anti-gun people want the next step, which is... no guns accessible to you in public (so you can't make that fatal mistake during the heat of an altercation).
Wanna shoot your frustrations off, go to a range.
Where do you live that "no guns in public" is the de facto? lmao. Go look up CCW/LTCF issued permits by state. There are millions of us standing next to you everyday.

There are many things I'll never understand about anti-gun people, but 2 in the top 10 would be...

Do you HONESTLY think if all guns were made illegal in public, there would be no guns in public?
If all guns were made illegal in the country, do you think crime would go down?
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I agree with JonJon.

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Old 12-21-2010, 12:46 PM   #45
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Skip the arguments. Let's get to the bottom line.
Currently there are two groups of people: those who carry a gun and those who don't.
Can you provide evidence that those who carry a gun in public live a safer life?
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Old 12-21-2010, 01:08 PM   #46
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I love to see the anti gunners talk themselves in circles. First MasterPro sites a story of violence in a house and later states that he is only against carry outside the home. He also says that violence wouldnít happen in this particular case if a gun hadnít been present. Well thatís very hard to say, men in their 70s in a rage or drunk can do surprising things. But lets say that no violence would have occurred in this situation. That still doesnít make a strong case for disarming America. The American Rifleman magazine has been posting 10 or so stories a month for at least the last 20 years that I have been reading it of people defending themselves with firearms. These are compiled from newspaper articles not unsubstantiated readers letters. They consist of stories of good people defending themselves in public against dogs , others with guns, wild animals, people armed with knives, bats ect. There are stories of elderly people who would be in danger from any young person(armed or not). These stories out weigh the occasional violent act that MIGHT have been prevented had a gun not been present. Read Guns save lives by Robert Waters. Full of stories of self defense, including self defense acts by concealed carry permit holders in public places.
You have to remember, when you ban a gun from a particular place only the people willing to blatantly break the law will have guns. That doesnít sound like a safe place to me. I would rather be in a place where good people could carry as well. It seems like everyone would feel that way. Remember that when guns are outlawed it will be no harder for criminals to illegally acquire them than it is for them to acquire cocaine marijuana heroin ect.
I know that in the anti gunners mind, Guns could be outlawed and the police would take them all away. Then there would be no need for guns. But in this impossible scenario, how does my wife defend my home or herself when I am deployed. How does an elderly person defend themselves? You say that the problems with guns is that they donít require that you engage (you have obviously never been in a gun fight). But thats precisely the problem. If my wife, an elderly person, a fit man against multiple assailants, a fit man carrying a small child ect ect, cannot be expected to run away or fight back effectively. A gun levels the playing field so that criminals donít always win. Remember that they get to choose when and where and to whom the attack happens. The law abiding person is reacting when the chips are down and you would have them unarmed! Its pure lunacy.
Lastly why do you think that people would get hot headed and kill each other if they were carrying guns. You donít realize it but we are everywhere. Florida issued 600,000 permits the first five years they had the program. We donít all get hot headed and kill each other in trafficÖ.Thats just silly to be honest. After 5 years Florida had revoked less than one percent of the permits issued. And most of that was for something other than violent crime. The criminals are the problem, not the guns. Masterpro, answer this question: If the lack of a firearm will prevent attacks because the assailants will have to engage at close range and would fear personal injury then how is it that prisons are so wrought with violence??? Arenít these the same criminals we want to defend our selves against? They donít fear engaging other violent body building gang members in prison why would they fear me or my wife or an elderly woman or a disabled person. Just answer that one question!
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Old 12-21-2010, 01:14 PM   #47
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Skip the arguments. Let's get to the bottom line.
Currently there are two groups of people: those who carry a gun and those who don't.
Can you provide evidence that those who carry a gun in public live a safer life?
You only want to skip arguments because you know that there is no logical way to win. The fact is that guns do not kill, people kill. Guns simply help level the playing field so that your chances of survival are not determined by physical size, but instead, by preparedness for an emergency.

As a direct answer, no I do not have hard evidence that shows people who carry guns are safer than those who do not. I also know that you cannot produce any evidence to the contrary. Nor can you seem to come up with a reasonable argument as to why we should not be allowed to carry.
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Old 12-21-2010, 01:24 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Master Po View Post
Skip the arguments. Let's get to the bottom line.
Currently there are two groups of people: those who carry a gun and those who don't.
Can you provide evidence that those who carry a gun in public live a safer life?
http://www.wagc.com/GunsSaveLives.html

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...6/ai_82533205/

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-114475580.html

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1498958/posts

http://www.spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42310

http://www.marijuana.com/current-eve...draw-guns.html

Here are 6 articles about people defending themselves with guns. I think most would agree that all of their lives were in extreme danger and they would likely be dead if they hadent been armed. If this isnt enough to answer your question let me know because I can post hundreds of these. The real question isnt are gun owners safer, I think that the above articles make that pretty clear (the articles and common sense), the real question is how many others lives did these people save by ending the careers of violent criminals. So maybe YOU are safer because people like myself carry guns!
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Old 12-21-2010, 01:39 PM   #49
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Skip the arguments. Let's get to the bottom line.
Currently there are two groups of people: those who carry a gun and those who don't.
Can you provide evidence that those who carry a gun in public live a safer life?
AGAIN... more deflection and changing of the subject...

Can't you anti's answer simple questions instead of changing the subject?

The burden is on you not me. Firearms are a Constitutional right.
Provide evidence that stricter gun laws DECREASE crime and supply a reasonable method to rid the entire world
of firearms (your proposed solution to crime)
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I agree with JonJon.

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Old 12-21-2010, 01:43 PM   #50
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You only want to skip arguments because you know that there is no logical way to win. The fact is that guns do not kill, people kill. Guns simply help level the playing field so that your chances of survival are not determined by physical size, but instead, by preparedness for an emergency.

As a direct answer, no I do not have hard evidence that shows people who carry guns are safer than those who do not. I also know that you cannot produce any evidence to the contrary. Nor can you seem to come up with a reasonable argument as to why we should not be allowed to carry.


PS: there is a ton of statistical data the shows areas with stricter guns laws have higher crime and areas with relaxed gun laws have less crime.
But I'm not going to do his homework for him. I'll let him learn on his own.
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I agree with JonJon.

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Old 12-21-2010, 01:55 PM   #51
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Can you provide evidence that those who carry a gun in public live a safer life?
Youre a moron...
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Old 12-21-2010, 02:13 PM   #52
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Wouldn't it be wonderful if everybody did what they SHOULD have done? Wait... then you wouldn't need a gun. Then what?


That's the scenario that fuels you guys paranoia, isn't it? What ifs.
Hey, you don't have to what if anything. We were there. In the wild wild west, a few hundred years ago. Everybody carried guns.
Every little confrontation ended up with a corpse.
We evolved out of that situation. We as in the majority. Look at the entire world. Look at other civilized countries. There's a reason why your way of thinking is the minority. You just can't see it, that's all.
That paranoia is what keeps me alive. I'm just wondering if you've ever stood face to face with a guy with a baseball bat covered in blood that just popped a guy in the head with it, after stabbing the guy's friend with a pocket knife. I have. Glad I had my Glock 22. I'd hate to have to match a cell phone or whistle with a bloody Louisville slugger.
Learn to back up your statements with qualifications, so we know you aren't just talking out of your a$$. You obviously have no clue what you're talking about and are one of those people who thinks feelings should be the basis for everything, and that facts are things you can just ignore or alter.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Po View Post
The part in bold says it all, the rest is a straw man argument. Nobody here said you can't own them. You should be able to buy any guns you want. You should even be able to carry them (unconcealed, to boot) in your own house. What you do with them is your business (as long as you don't shoot through the walls).

There is no reason to carry a gun in public. Even the current law says very explicitly CONCEALED. Can you reflect on that and realize why?
The matter is one of public safety. You can't say for sure everyone is well trained or as cool headed as you are.
If we could make that argument stick, our highways should be like Autobahn, because I'm well trained at high speeds.
The way it is... it's the minimum common denominator. And when it comes to such a definite matter as life or death, the MCD is NO GUNS in public areas.
But that's already sort of de facto. The anti-gun people want the next step, which is... no guns accessible to you in public (so you can't make that fatal mistake during the heat of an altercation).
Wanna shoot your frustrations off, go to a range.
People need guns to protect themselves. Police have no legal requirement to protect you, and that's been upheld by several decisions by SCOTUS. Additionally, if you happen to be in an area out in the middle of nowhere and something happens, what are you going to do when the Sheriff's deputies are 15 minutes away? Good luck with your "logic". We had an incident in the county last year where a guy was attacked by someone who had a severe case of road rage. Bad guy got out of the vehicle with a tire iron ready to bash in a skull. Citizen victim pulled out a 9mm and bad guy got back into his car and left. No injuries. I know for a fact that a cell phone or an apology would not have stopped that from happening...





Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Po View Post
Skip the arguments. Let's get to the bottom line.
Currently there are two groups of people: those who carry a gun and those who don't.
Can you provide evidence that those who carry a gun in public live a safer life?
Can you provide evidence that those who legally carry a gun in public DON'T live a safer life?
Can you coherently argue with Dr. John R. Lott, Jr?



"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
-John Adams (Founding Father who was a vehement supporter of gun ownership)
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Old 12-21-2010, 02:46 PM   #53
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?

The burden is on you not me. Firearms are a Constitutional right.
Provide evidence that stricter gun laws DECREASE crime and supply a reasonable method to rid the entire world
of firearms (your proposed solution to crime)
Didnt think of that.....But you are 100% right. Why do we have to defend our RIGHT to carry firearms?
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Old 12-21-2010, 02:52 PM   #54
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Didnt think of that.....But you are 100% right. Why do we have to defend our RIGHT to carry firearms?
Corruption and Tyranny, honestly...
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I agree with JonJon.
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Old 12-21-2010, 03:25 PM   #55
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You only want to skip arguments because you know that there is no logical way to win.
No. It's because I've been on these discussion boards long enough to know that nobody will change anybody's opinion arguing, especially online.
For example, your "guns don't kill people" bit is so cliche. Who ever said anything like that, in that sense? Unlike a knife, bat, rope, etc, a gun is designed with the purpose to kill (not talking about target shooting specialized pieces. The topic is street guns).
I'm trying to be pragmatic. Do you mind? If you do, I'm not your man. I'm sure you can find plenty of arguments in any anti-gun boards.
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Originally Posted by ThEnder View Post
As a direct answer, no I do not have hard evidence that shows people who carry guns are safer than those who do not. I also know that you cannot produce any evidence to the contrary.
wrong. See below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davematuska View Post
http://www.wagc.com/GunsSaveLives.html

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...6/ai_82533205/

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-114475580.html

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1498958/posts

http://www.spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42310

http://www.marijuana.com/current-eve...draw-guns.html

Here are 6 articles about people defending themselves with guns. I think most would agree that all of their lives were in extreme danger and they would likely be dead if they hadent been armed. If this isnt enough to answer your question let me know because I can post hundreds of these. The real question isnt are gun owners safer, I think that the above articles make that pretty clear (the articles and common sense), the real question is how many others lives did these people save by ending the careers of violent criminals. So maybe YOU are safer because people like myself carry guns!
Citing anecdotal evidence and posts from pro-gun groups is hardly unbiased evidence.

Check this out.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ers-per-capita

With exception for Switzerland, those countries down at the bottom, safest by this measure, don't allow their citizens to carry guns. Switzerland is an exceptional case. They carry guns not for necessity, but for historical reasons.

Bottom line: if your society have violence issues, let's work on fixing those issues. Giving guns to everybody is escalating the violence.

Last edited by Master Po; 12-21-2010 at 03:33 PM.
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Old 12-21-2010, 03:30 PM   #56
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Youre a moron...
JonJon,
I tried to indulge you. You asked for a civil discussion. To share each other's way of thinking.
This is the kind of stupidity that discussions like this (also religion and politics) seem to be plagued with.
If y'all have any rules against personal attacks, I wish to file charges and know you will act with impartiality.
Anyhow, major put off. I'm out.
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Old 12-21-2010, 03:32 PM   #57
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Corruption and Tyranny, honestly...
+misinformation and bad logic.

My belief is that most anti-gun proponents are targeting firearms instead of addressing the underlying issues because it's easier to go after a tool than to go after a cause.
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Old 12-21-2010, 03:51 PM   #58
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JonJon,
I tried to indulge you. You asked for a civil discussion. To share each other's way of thinking.
This is the kind of stupidity that discussions like this (also religion and politics) seem to be plagued with.
If y'all have any rules against personal attacks, I wish to file charges and know you will act with impartiality.
Anyhow, major put off. I'm out.
Why didnt you look into the gun laws of the top countries on your list:

South Africa has stricter gun laws than US and is #2 on list.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_pol...n_South_Africa

Jamiaca is #3 and guns are banned almost completely there.
http://ricketyclick.com/blog/index.p...trol-paradise/

Russia #4 guns are almost completely illigal for normal people.
http://www.gunlab.com.ru/summary.html

Your little list proved our point more than you. The top of the murder rate list is full of countries that ban guns.

I would leave the discussion too if I were losing so badly. But please dont pretend it is because one guy, who hasnt been part of the discussion called you an idiot. Come on, admit that you proved our point with the list of murder rates that has gun prohibition countries at the to and admit that I was able to site 6 stories with 3 minutes of research of people defending themselves with firearms. They are no biased anecdotal evidence. They are verifiable stories. Research them or if you please I can provide you with many more.
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Old 12-21-2010, 03:53 PM   #59
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No. It's because I've been on these discussion boards long enough to know that nobody will change anybody's opinion arguing, especially online.
I'd believe that if you hadn't gotten started in the first place. It's hard to believe you when you make a statement, get several responses that disprove it, and then simply say that you can't be bothered to defend it but you're still right.

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Originally Posted by Master Po View Post
For example, your "guns don't kill people" bit is so cliche. Who ever said anything like that, in that sense?
When argue that people should not be allowed to carry firearms as a matter of public safety, it's inferred that you mean it because guns can kill.

Furthermore, cliche or not, it's true. I've never once heard of a gun killing someone on its own. Never, not once, ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Po View Post
Unlike a knife, bat, rope, etc, a gun is designed with the purpose to kill (not talking about target shooting specialized pieces. The topic is street guns).
Yes, guns are designed to kill. They are weapons, and they must be treated with the utmost respect because they do have the potential to cause serious harm. That still does not mean people should not be allowed to have them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Po View Post
I'm trying to be pragmatic. Do you mind? If you do, I'm not your man.
Borrowed from Wikipedia, the definition of pragmatism is:
Practical, concerned with making decisions and actions that are useful in practice, not just theory.

There are several examples posted here of how responsible gun ownership has saved lives, the original topic of the thread being one of many. You call yourself a pragmatist, yet in the face of so many practical situations were having a gun was advantageous, you continue to argue without evidence that people should be deprived of a constitutional right. That's laughable at best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Po View Post
I'm sure you can find plenty of arguments in any anti-gun boards.
I'm not asking an anti-gun board for arguments, I'm asking you. Surely if you feel so strongly that people should not carry guns, you have some reasons?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Po View Post
Citing anecdotal evidence and posts from pro-gun groups is hardly unbiased evidence.
Ah, yes. Marijuana.com seems like a site full of gun lovers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Po View Post
Check this out.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ers-per-capita
With exception for Switzerland, those countries down at the bottom, safest by this measure, don't allow their citizens to carry guns. Switzerland is an exceptional case. They carry guns not for necessity, but for historical reasons.
The United States has historical precedence to carry guns as well. I actually brought that up initially, which you incorrectly dismissed as being a straw man argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Po View Post
Bottom line: if your society have violence issues, let's work on fixing those issues. Giving guns to everybody is escalating the violence.
I agree, we should fix the issues that make people feel they need to carry a firearm for protection. However, by your own admission, it is other issues that cause violence, not the fact that guns exist. Preventing honest and reasonable people from having a weapon only prevents them from defending themselves. People that are willing to use a gun to commit a crime will not be stopped by making guns illegal. The only ones that are harmed by gun bans are those who obey the law.
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Old 12-21-2010, 04:01 PM   #60
davematuska
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Mexico #6 murder rate has very restrictive gun laws.
http://www.davekopel.com/espanol/Mexican-Gun-Laws.htm

Gun control failed in Venezuela #4 on list.
http://www.laht.com/article.asp?Cate...ticleId=330822

Estonia is stricter than the US
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/estonia

Thanks for the Pro gun Ammo MasterPro.....LOL
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