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Old 01-11-2011, 08:30 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by hayabusa55 View Post
But when do you tell your kids "You've done well. Enjoy your life." Or do you know what's best for them and how they'll get the most enjoyment out of their time?
When your kids have exited high school and start at a college, they can start making their own decisions.

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Sports, academics. It's all the same, really, if you're pushing the kids beyond what's natural. Actually, it isn't. In sports, kids get to make friends and bond with others far more than in academics.
What do you mean "beyond what's natural"? They can obviously do it. Therefore it is natural. There's a huge difference between say, running a 100 meter dash in less than 8 seconds and getting a 100 on a test.

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Financial success? Is that all that life is about to you?
Just success in general. Mainly financial and socioeconomic.

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Of course, someone with financial difficulties will likely not be happy. However, once you've attained a certain degree of financial freedom, more money means very little, realistically speaking. Sure, everyone dreams of luxurious vacations, exotic cars and whatnot, but those things really aren't what makes one a satisfying life, as much as we drool all over them when we see them in pictures, video and real life.
Sure, but people constantly care about socioeconomic status. That's something that Asian parents desire for their children above all. And the surest way to high socioeconomic status is to have a good education and a good job, which is why they push/encourage their kids to go into such professions as lawyers, doctors, and accountants (which has the least complicated path to business school).

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It goes without saying that the way most people raise their kids leaves lots to be desired. There's no mistake about that. However, this lady is a complete nutcase. I hope that her children will be able to get over their horrible childhoods.
Well, it seems that in her book she does eventually relent somewhat with her younger daughter. But to say their childhoods were "horrible" is hyperbole.

Quote:
Here's a good comment:
as a lawyer, she must be aware that she is violating several un conventions-and those on fundamental human rights, on the rights of the child and on prevention of torture.
for instance, this-"We worked right through dinner into the night, and I wouldn't let Lulu get up, not for water, not even to go to the bathroom. The house became a war zone, and I lost my voice yelling, "-clearly amounts to inhuman and degrading treatment or punishment, and is absolutely prohibited. even when investigating mass terror suspects. i wonder if anyone would investigate her.
I wish someone would.
Investigate her? For what? She passes the smell test so nobody is going to give a **** that she has done some "questionable" things. We all have.

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But I don't care about numbers. Those do not quantify quality of life or happiness. Can you tell me how happy a person is and how many friends they have by their grades or by their bank account?
But I don't care about subjective measurements. Can you tell me what their grades are or the amount in their bank account by how many friends they have or how happy they say they are?

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Maybe because most American parents have to work overtime or two jobs to make ends meet. There's a lack of responsibility out there, but it's not just that.
That's the most bullshit argument ever. Do you know how hard a first generation Asian parent works? A helluva lot harder than the average American. My parents worked at a job, put themselves through school, and educated me when I was young.

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Children are short sighted, stupid and ignorant? Is that the Chinese Mother coming out in you? Children are open minded, free of hate and full of possibilities. Who are you to decide what pleasures in life your child has to pursue?
Of course they're open minded and free of hate and full of possibilities. Doesn't stop them from being short sighted, stupid, and ignorant. Who better to influence and mold them than their parents? Their "friends" and random strangers that they see on the street or on tv?

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Regardless. For the sake of argument, let's say you live in a predominantly Chinese American neighborhood, where you have a class of 20 Chinese American kids. Are they all going to be #1? Are they all going to have A's? What happens to the ones that don't? The entire concept is ridiculous.
In China, those who don't cut mustard in academics are relegated to peasant life and low socioeconomic status unless their family is wealthy and connected. The same would happen in the United States. But the fact is there aren't many districts and counties where Chinese Americans are competing mainly against other Chinese Americans. As long as they score significantly above the national average, all is good.

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The woman is a Law School professor. How is she qualified to comment on raising children? Because her kids get good grades? The eldest is what, 15? I sincerely wish them good luck in life.
Her first daughter played at Carnegie Hall when she was 13. Both of them are extremely talented, intelligent, hard working, knowledgeable and thoughtful children. The vast majority of people will say her children are paragons, even if they disagree with her parenting methods.

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What about the mother? Did similar upbringing make her happy?
She must never sleep (she equates less slumber with a fuller life): She teaches full time, writes lauded books and papers, maintains a grueling travel schedule and, most important, devotes herself to Chinese motherhood. "The truth is I'm not good at enjoying life," she readily admits.
What a joke!

Some people are workaholics. This is not an exclusively Chinese phenomenon. The difference being that a workaholic like her has infinitely more options than a person who thinks more along the lines of how you think, even if she never chooses to exercise them.

Look, I'm not saying she's the perfect parent. Far from it. But her style of parenting is much better than what the average American parent is doing.
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Old 01-11-2011, 09:34 PM   #22
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Jesus dude ease up on the quotes. Somebody wants to feel important.
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Old 01-11-2011, 11:16 PM   #23
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But I don't care about subjective measurements. Can you tell me what their grades are or the amount in their bank account by how many friends they have or how happy they say they are?
If someone has a circle of friends and is happy with their life, their grades are irrelevant and their bank account obviously sufficient.

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That's the most bullshit argument ever. Do you know how hard a first generation Asian parent works? A helluva lot harder than the average American. My parents worked at a job, put themselves through school, and educated me when I was young.
I'm simply saying that not every parent is lazy and uninterested. Hardly the most bullshit argument ever.

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The same would happen in the United States. But the fact is there aren't many districts and counties where Chinese Americans are competing mainly against other Chinese Americans. As long as they score significantly above the national average, all is good.
But if Americans were to adopt the Chinese system, it'd be the same as if you had a bunch of kids like this woman's children all in one class. Who wins? What happens to the losers?

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Her first daughter played at Carnegie Hall when she was 13. Both of them are extremely talented, intelligent, hard working, knowledgeable and thoughtful children. The vast majority of people will say her children are paragons, even if they disagree with her parenting methods.
How do you know how hardworking, knowledgeable or thoughtful they are. Especially thoughtful! You seem very invested in this story.

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Some people are workaholics. This is not an exclusively Chinese phenomenon.
I didn't say it was.

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Originally Posted by rapier7 View Post
Look, I'm not saying she's the perfect parent. Far from it. But her style of parenting is much better than what the average American parent is doing.
I disagree, but then our definitions of "good parenting" seem to differ. If this was the only way I could get my kids to do well in school, I'd rather they don't.
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I would love to hear what Busa would have done
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I'd like to know how Busa would handle this situation.
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Old 01-12-2011, 12:19 AM   #24
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When your kids have exited high school and start at a college, they can start making their own decisions.
Hey, worry about your own kids. See how they turn out, then, maybe, tell other people how they have to raise their kids.

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Originally Posted by rapier7 View Post
Sure, but people constantly care about socioeconomic status. That's something that Asian parents desire for their children above all. And the surest way to high socioeconomic status is to have a good education and a good job, which is why they push/encourage their kids to go into such professions as lawyers, doctors, and accountants (which has the least complicated path to business school).
All depends. Perhaps most people do "constantly care about socioeconomic status". Maybe that is how we got to be in the bleeped up situation we are in.


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But I don't care about subjective measurements. Can you tell me what their grades are or the amount in their bank account by how many friends they have or how happy they say they are?
Grades are subjective measurements as well. Hell, so is the money in their bank account or their total net worth. Just because someone gets straight A's and has 7 zeros in the bank doesn't mean their are a decent person. They might be, they might not be. They may have no redeeming human characteristics what so ever.

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Of course they're open minded and free of hate and full of possibilities. Doesn't stop them from being short sighted, stupid, and ignorant. Who better to influence and mold them than their parents? Their "friends" and random strangers that they see on the street or on tv?
"Mold them". That is exactly what you want. Molds. Nice little replicates of what the world is supposed to be like with the same values and ideas.
The idea of that I find very reprehensible. We have the collective knowledge of generations. Lets see who is likely to be a better influence on that kid.
Sophocles, Euripides, Socrates, Chaucer, Shakespeare, David, Donatello, Ibsen, Shaw, Einstein, Machiavelli, Dante, Westwood,...shall I go on.
or
Two people who may have little to no understanding outside of a very narrow view of the world. May not really give a rats a$$ if the kid actually enjoys their life. Lets face, the kid came about as the result of a f**k between these two and frankly the genetics they have little control over, and that has much more to do with how this human "will perform in school or in music or make money" than all of their so-called parenting.

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Originally Posted by rapier7 View Post
Some people are workaholics. This is not an exclusively Chinese phenomenon. The difference being that a workaholic like her has infinitely more options than a person who thinks more along the lines of how you think, even if she never chooses to exercise them.
Not generally true. They really don't have those options. You think they do, but, to them, they don't. They must work. That is their identity. That is who they are, that is what they are. They wrap their entire concept of identity and self-worth into working. That behavior generally creates fewer options, not more.


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But her style of parenting is much better than what the average American parent is doing.
Based on what? Your particular view of what "success" is.

I think she is far worse. But, perhaps she wants to raise a drone of child. Someone who thinks just like her, who believes just like her. Who has been "modled" to her belief system. I hope that mother gets what she deserves. Being bludgeoned to death by her own child, when the kid snaps because they realize there is much more to life than mommy's little bubble.

As was said:
I never give a damn about my bad reputation
I never said I wanted to improve my station
And I'm always feelin good when I havin fun
And I don't have to please no one
Cause I don't give a damn about my bad reputation

Perhaps if kids understood that and were "molded" to believe in that. We would have a much better society. F**k doing what everybody else says you should or are supposed to do. Decide for yourself. Make your own decisions. Make your own mistakes. Live with the consequences of your actions. Own who you are. Decide for yourself.

"Its so sad, when your young, to be told, you're having fun."
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Old 01-12-2011, 03:21 AM   #25
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there's definite middle ground to be had here. Should every child play either violin or piano? No. Should kids be allowed to be in the school play? Of course. Should parents push their kids to play football throughout all of middle school and high school if the kid grows up hating football because it was his "job" not his "game"?

Kids have poor decision making skills, that's a fact. But that doesn't mean that parents need to make all their decisions for them. If a kid says "You know what, crack slinging is the way for me to go", that's when the parents need to step in. But when the decision comes to "Do I want to play football or lacrosse?" That's something for a kid to decide. Same with "Do I want to play classical violin or jazz trombone?" Again, that's something for a kid to decide.
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Old 01-12-2011, 03:24 AM   #26
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Just success in general. Mainly financial and socioeconomic.
is a miserable single billionaire more successful than a guy that just manages to pay his bills every month, but he's happily married with a family and content with what he has?
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Old 01-12-2011, 06:32 AM   #27
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But in reality, their kids aren't doing their own thing because their decisions will be based more on external factors (where their parents live and the kids that they interact with) than from any semblance of "free will".

Personally, I think most American kids could benefit more from "Chinese parenting" than "Chinese kids" can benefit from "Western parenting".
I think this is spot on for the most part.

I think its crucial for parents to make their kids aware of the importance of education and economic stability (not neccesarily being rich) while the kids should have the freedom to find out who they are and what success and happiness means to them.

An Asian kid becoming a doctor because his been indoctrinated from an early age that success = doctor, lawyer, CEO is just as bad an an American kid born with a high IQ but due to a lack of parenting and guidence ends up not reaching his full potential.
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Old 01-12-2011, 07:47 AM   #28
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Some of our parents and grandparents had to grow up in the toughest of conditions and had to deal with life's challenges in much different ways than we do now. That doesn't mean that I need to send my kids to war at 13 to get them to become good people like my grandfather.

This lady is nuts. I sincerely doubt her happiness and satisfaction in life with anything, including herself and her children. For one to be so strict and demanding and focused on a particular goal is not a temporary condition, alleviated once the goal is attained.

There are Western parents like this. They're the obsessive types who push their children into sports and instruments they themselves wanted to excel at. The ones who live through their children.

And the children? Sure, they know how to play violin really well. Sure, they're good at school. What about their social skills? Happiness? Their future relationships and parental skills?

What many people fail to realize is that life's success is not measured by money or medals or even skill. There are plenty of activities that contribute to none of the above and yet they're very important to the happiness and health of a person.
Well said,
I know people that had parents like this(my ex for one), great girl super hard worker always did great in school etc but it was never good enough for her parents, needless to say she ended up being extremely depressed and didn't talk to her parents for years after she moved out and saw the real world.

That's not something I ever want to see my kids go through. I believe parents should be there for direction and help but not as a full blown dictator, my parents let me do whatever I wanted as long as I was doing something productive and staying out of trouble, and we've always had a great relationship, and I turned out successful under my own power.

I've just seen entirely too many parents control their kids lives and that may work in china where they have a different understanding of freedom than we do but I don't see it ever working over here and I'm glad
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Old 01-12-2011, 10:03 AM   #29
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so i guess this news article is saying that some helicopter parents are good?
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Old 01-12-2011, 10:34 AM   #30
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Driving ability was evidently not part of the criteria for being labeled superior.
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Old 01-12-2011, 11:37 AM   #31
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Some of our parents and grandparents had to grow up in the toughest of conditions and had to deal with life's challenges in much different ways than we do now. That doesn't mean that I need to send my kids to war at 13 to get them to become good people like my grandfather.

This lady is nuts. I sincerely doubt her happiness and satisfaction in life with anything, including herself and her children. For one to be so strict and demanding and focused on a particular goal is not a temporary condition, alleviated once the goal is attained.

There are Western parents like this. They're the obsessive types who push their children into sports and instruments they themselves wanted to excel at. The ones who live through their children.

And the children? Sure, they know how to play violin really well. Sure, they're good at school. What about their social skills? Happiness? Their future relationships and parental skills?

What many people fail to realize is that life's success is not measured by money or medals or even skill. There are plenty of activities that contribute to none of the above and yet they're very important to the happiness and health of a person.
Bingo. I'm tempted to push work aside today and write a full rebuttal to her article from the viewpoint of the product of what she is trying to create.
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Old 01-12-2011, 11:52 AM   #32
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Driving ability was evidently not part of the criteria for being labeled superior.
Its good for Prius sales at least
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Old 01-12-2011, 11:54 AM   #33
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@rapier7

Given the feedback in this thread from "westerners" you now can appreciate better the questions I posed in post #15. Re-read and reflect.

It's undeniable that Asian kids do better academically. Statistics prove it. Unfortunately, politicians like to spin or dismiss the facts and push for a more politically-correct and less controversial position that we are all equal. BS (with capital letters).
Why should we? Maybe in the future, after technology truly breaks down the geographic barriers and we intermix the entire population on the planet. But what we see today is still largely the result of thousands of years of isolated genetic developments.
Just look at the NBA, NFL and Olympics track and field. It's dominated by blacks. It's the undeniable result when you take affirmative action and other BS political influence out of the equation. It's in the genes.
If blacks can be superior in activities that involve muscles, why can't Asians be superior in activities that involve the brains. Ooohh... too controversial a topic to handle. Muscles=OK. Brains=not OK. But scientifically speaking, and without political influence, it just makes sense that we are NOT all the same (as a group and statistically speaking, of course. Not saying all Asians perform better in school than all blacks).
If it was not in the genes and all it takes is hard work, practice, practice and more practice to excel in sports, you can bet Asians parents would force their kids to be football players. Are you kidding me? Any bench warmer in the NFL makes more than a doctor and definitely much more than any philharmonic violin player.
Asian parents force their kids in certain activities because it's time proven that they can excel in those. Every parent (in every race) want their kids to excel in something. It's part for the kids sake but an undeniable part is for the parent's sake, so they have something to brag about.
The difference, as pointed out by the article, is that Asian parents are a lot more focused on that "pushing" thing. It's a matter of honor and failure isn't an option. Westerner parents... oh well, we tried, Johnny just isn't into this... anyways, as long as he's happy. Different expectations. Why? Partly due to cultural customs.
In China, there's no Social Security. Your kids are your retirement plan. Family relationships are triple reinforced. A good child will bring the elderly parent to their new house and take care of them.
In the US, raising children is a responsibility that ends (legally speaking) at 18. Investing more goes against your retirement plans. A child that still lives in his parent house after 21 is looked down upon. In old Asia it was expected... well things are changing now.

In your first post you said something about western parents have something to learn from Asian parents, but the reverse isn't true... I disagree.
In the article, she mentioned how Chinese parents don't let their kids go on sleep over parties. Largely true (there are exceptions of course). That's exactly the undoing of Chinese kids. They lack social skills. That is a significant theme in the answers to the points I posted in #15. There are several other themes, but I won't go over them here.

@Hayabusa
The lady is not nuts. She is a typical Asian mother. As I said, she dramatizes event, for the purposes of a newspaper story, but it's largely true.
And kids survive that. And they pass on that behavior, like napier7 is going to do. It's not abuse. Is it abuse when a coach forces you to practice football at 6am, in subfreezing temperature? It might be looked at that way by Chinese. Now, going to school at 6am for sectional violin practice... that's all good.

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Old 01-12-2011, 02:08 PM   #34
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"Great" parenting Should produces kids who are respectful - to their parents, to others and of themselves) - it doesn't come from any particular culture from my experience, either Chinese or Western/American methods in this case.

From the article, it seems to me this Chinese mother is teaching/training her daughters that if you scream, deprive, threaten, and harass someone long enough you can get a person to:
1. Do as they are commanded.
2. Submit to your viewpoint/particular way of doing something.
3. Master/learn a new skill by ONLY Rigid repetition - military style.
4. Individual interests (alternate/opposing to that of the "authority"/parent) should and will be repressed.

I Don't believe those are good Life lessons to be teaching.
Especially if/when we expect these AMERICAN/Chinese kids to grow up to be Our attorneys, CEOs,... government officials/Representatives?

Just a thought.
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Old 01-12-2011, 02:15 PM   #35
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If someone has a circle of friends and is happy with their life, their grades are irrelevant and their bank account obviously sufficient.
Fair enough, but you can say the same thing for the successful Asian kid.

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I'm simply saying that not every parent is lazy and uninterested. Hardly the most bullshit argument ever.
You said "Maybe because most American parents have to work overtime or two jobs to make ends meet." That's clearly a patently false statement and argument. About 10% of the work force works two jobs and the majority are salaried workers.

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But if Americans were to adopt the Chinese system, it'd be the same as if you had a bunch of kids like this woman's children all in one class. Who wins? What happens to the losers?
The winners are those who do the best in school. The losers get relegated to menial labor. Kinda similar to the American system, actually.

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How do you know how hardworking, knowledgeable or thoughtful they are. Especially thoughtful! You seem very invested in this story.
They practice 3 hours of piano a day, have straight As, and their mother raised them to be polite and respectful of their elders. That seems to be symptoms of hardworking, knowledgeable, and thoughtful people.

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I disagree, but then our definitions of "good parenting" seem to differ. If this was the only way I could get my kids to do well in school, I'd rather they don't.
If it was the only way, then I would. Educated people are well off and it seems to me that well off people are generally happier and more satisfied with their lives.

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Hey, worry about your own kids. See how they turn out, then, maybe, tell other people how they have to raise their kids.
Fair enough. I'm only 22 and have basically zero experience in child rearing.

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All depends. Perhaps most people do "constantly care about socioeconomic status". Maybe that is how we got to be in the bleeped up situation we are in.
What is the "bleeped up situation" we are in? Why do people have to constantly paint our lives and experiences as part of a "bleeped up situation"? I daresay that you're relatively satisfied with your situation and community and that others across the country are too.

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Grades are subjective measurements as well. Hell, so is the money in their bank account or their total net worth. Just because someone gets straight A's and has 7 zeros in the bank doesn't mean their are a decent person. They might be, they might not be. They may have no redeeming human characteristics what so ever.
Sure, but it's a hell of a lot easier to standardize test scores and measurements of net worth than friends and happiness.

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"Mold them". That is exactly what you want. Molds. Nice little replicates of what the world is supposed to be like with the same values and ideas.
The idea of that I find very reprehensible. We have the collective knowledge of generations. Lets see who is likely to be a better influence on that kid.
Sophocles, Euripides, Socrates, Chaucer, Shakespeare, David, Donatello, Ibsen, Shaw, Einstein, Machiavelli, Dante, Westwood,...shall I go on.
or
All those people are dead. The fact is children are blank slates. And external factors beyond their control will shape who they are and who they become. It is far better for their parents to determine who they will be than their peers or some stranger.

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Two people who may have little to no understanding outside of a very narrow view of the world. May not really give a rats a$$ if the kid actually enjoys their life. Lets face, the kid came about as the result of a f**k between these two and frankly the genetics they have little control over, and that has much more to do with how this human "will perform in school or in music or make money" than all of their so-called parenting.
You're in the nature camp? For me, short of a serious genetic disorder such as Down Syndrome, it's all about nurture. Gladwell's Outliers is a good proxy for my beliefs on this matter.

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Not generally true. They really don't have those options. You think they do, but, to them, they don't. They must work. That is their identity. That is who they are, that is what they are. They wrap their entire concept of identity and self-worth into working. That behavior generally creates fewer options, not more.
There is a huge difference between a mental limitation and a physical one.

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Based on what? Your particular view of what "success" is.
My particular view of "success" is shared by most people, whether they openly admit it or not.

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I think she is far worse. But, perhaps she wants to raise a drone of child. Someone who thinks just like her, who believes just like her. Who has been "modled" to her belief system. I hope that mother gets what she deserves. Being bludgeoned to death by her own child, when the kid snaps because they realize there is much more to life than mommy's little bubble.
She doesn't want a carbon copy of who she is. Rather, she wants someone educated, talented, and connected enough to give them near-infinite upside, something akin to what she had. That doesn't necessarily mean she wants her children to become Yale law professors, or even a lawyer.

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As was said:
I never give a damn about my bad reputation
I never said I wanted to improve my station
And I'm always feelin good when I havin fun
And I don't have to please no one
Cause I don't give a damn about my bad reputation

Perhaps if kids understood that and were "molded" to believe in that. We would have a much better society. F**k doing what everybody else says you should or are supposed to do. Decide for yourself. Make your own decisions. Make your own mistakes. Live with the consequences of your actions. Own who you are. Decide for yourself.
Isn't that what's happening right now? The laissez faire parenting school certainly seems to have more practicing converts than the Chinese school. Somehow, I don't think that bodes well for the future, collectively and individually.

P.S: Joan Jett's song might be catchy, but come on, man.

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Originally Posted by Master Po View Post
It's undeniable that Asian kids do better academically. Statistics prove it. Unfortunately, politicians like to spin or dismiss the facts and push for a more politically-correct and less controversial position that we are all equal. BS (with capital letters).
Why should we? Maybe in the future, after technology truly breaks down the geographic barriers and we intermix the entire population on the planet. But what we see today is still largely the result of thousands of years of isolated genetic developments.
Just look at the NBA, NFL and Olympics track and field. It's dominated by blacks. It's the undeniable result when you take affirmative action and other BS political influence out of the equation. It's in the genes.
If blacks can be superior in activities that involve muscles, why can't Asians be superior in activities that involve the brains. Ooohh... too controversial a topic to handle. Muscles=OK. Brains=not OK. But scientifically speaking, and without political influence, it just makes sense that we are NOT all the same (as a group and statistically speaking, of course. Not saying all Asians perform better in school than all blacks).
If it was not in the genes and all it takes is hard work, practice, practice and more practice to excel in sports, you can bet Asians parents would force their kids to be football players. Are you kidding me? Any bench warmer in the NFL makes more than a doctor and definitely much more than any philharmonic violin player.
Your genes might determine the absolute ceiling of your upside, but very few people are pushed to their absolute limit. The Chinese parenting methods aren't trying to produce Olympian caliber student equivalents. They're trying to produce the future members of the upper middle class.

Comparing doctors to competitive sports is nonsensical. There is a huge difference. In sports there is always a winner and a loser, even though the difference between them might be minute. The first WR selected in the Draft might be able to run a 4.3 40 and the last WR taken might run a 4.5 40, but the former's compensation is going to be 10 times what the latter's compensation is. The same can't be said of two neurosurgeons or two anesthesiologists, who will make roughly the same amount of money, adjusting for geographical differences, etc.

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Asian parents force their kids in certain activities because it's time proven that they can excel in those. Every parent (in every race) want their kids to excel in something. It's part for the kids sake but an undeniable part is for the parent's sake, so they have something to brag about.
The difference, as pointed out by the article, is that Asian parents are a lot more focused on that "pushing" thing. It's a matter of honor and failure isn't an option. Westerner parents... oh well, we tried, Johnny just isn't into this... anyways, as long as he's happy. Different expectations. Why? Partly due to cultural customs.
Sure, but in a society like the United States, where a well educated person in the right time and the right place can have infinite upside compared to the relatively limited upside for a well educated person in China, Chinese parenting would be so much more effective.

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In your first post you said something about western parents have something to learn from Asian parents, but the reverse isn't true... I disagree.
In the article, she mentioned how Chinese parents don't let their kids go on sleep over parties. Largely true (there are exceptions of course). That's exactly the undoing of Chinese kids. They lack social skills. That is a significant theme in the answers to the points I posted in #15. There are several other themes, but I won't go over them here.
I said that Western parents have more to learn from Chinese parents than vice versa. Not that Chinese parents have absolutely nothing to learn from Western parents.
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Old 01-12-2011, 02:49 PM   #36
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Driving ability was evidently not part of the criteria for being labeled superior.
so fvcking true though
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Old 01-12-2011, 03:26 PM   #37
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Fair enough, but you can say the same thing for the successful Asian kid.
I'm not sure why this is an Asian/non-Asian thing. I'm saying it precisely BECAUSE it can be said for any kid/adult, regardless of race.

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Originally Posted by rapier7 View Post
You said "Maybe because most American parents have to work overtime or two jobs to make ends meet." That's clearly a patently false statement and argument. About 10% of the work force works two jobs and the majority are salaried workers.
Really? How important is it that we drill into this?

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Originally Posted by rapier7 View Post
The winners are those who do the best in school. The losers get relegated to menial labor. Kinda similar to the American system, actually.
But in this case, the losers may be kids who get Bs, no? Because anything other than having A's and being THE BEST is not enough for these parents. What happens to these kids that are really smart and great in schoo, but just not the BEST?

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Originally Posted by rapier7 View Post
They practice 3 hours of piano a day, have straight As, and their mother raised them to be polite and respectful of their elders. That seems to be symptoms of hardworking, knowledgeable, and thoughtful people.
Sorry, neither you, nor I know the slightest thing about these girls.

They practice 3 hours a day? - What positive attribute does this describe?
Straight A's? - That makes them smart, I guess.
Their mother raised them to be polite and respectful of their elders? - In an interview? In private? Have you met these girls?
You seem to be making lots of assumptions.

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Originally Posted by rapier7 View Post
If it was the only way, then I would. Educated people are well off and it seems to me that well off people are generally happier and more satisfied with their lives.
Not true. People that are not poor are happier than people that are poor. People that have sufficient money don't show statistically significant increases in happiness that correspond to increases in wealth. The only other way money makes you happier is if you have more money than your neighbor. But even that is temporary. Either you move to a richer neighborhood where that is not the case and your money based happiness disappears, or the thrill of the money simply wears off.

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Originally Posted by rapier7 View Post
Sure, but it's a hell of a lot easier to standardize test scores and measurements of net worth than friends and happiness.
Not everything needs to be measured. Some things can be observed. Do your kids come to visit you often? Are they enthusiastic about the things going on in their lives? Are they social? Are they optimistic? Do they handle stress well?

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Originally Posted by rapier7 View Post
All those people are dead. The fact is children are blank slates. And external factors beyond their control will shape who they are and who they become. It is far better for their parents to determine who they will be than their peers or some stranger.
Not necessarily. A parent may mean well, but they're often living in the past, dealing with their own issues and prejudices and they're often misinformed as much, if not more than their kids. Peers and strangers are more representative of people that kids will encounter throughout their adulthood and can provide a very important part of the growing up process. Naturally, it's up to a parent to guide this process and ensure it is relatively safe.

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Originally Posted by rapier7 View Post
My particular view of "success" is shared by most people, whether they openly admit it or not.
You may be correct, but in no way does that make it any more valid. We all know how we feel about 'popular opinion'.

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Originally Posted by rapier7 View Post
She doesn't want a carbon copy of who she is. Rather, she wants someone educated, talented, and connected enough to give them near-infinite upside, something akin to what she had. That doesn't necessarily mean she wants her children to become Yale law professors, or even a lawyer.
She may not want a carbon copy of herself, but she also doesn't appear to want independent thinking adults. It doesn't look like she's giving them lots of freedom or choices.

What's more interesting is that, for someone who always insists on sticking to facts and numbers, you're make A LOT of assumptions. You are making wild assumptions about her wanting someone educated, talented, and connected enough to do this, that or the other. Even if she said what she wants explicitly, it is no indication of what she really wants, and what is much more obvious by looking at her actions.

I'm not interested in debating genetics.

I've noticed that your value system is based a lot on things that can be measured and quantified. Someone's grades, or the number of hours they practice the violin says zero about personality, happiness and yes, even intelligence. I know lots of kids who have great grades, but horrible interaction skills, little common sense and a just a skewed view of the world.

You tear through economics and finance related threads impressively and with little emotion other than disgust and disdain for those who make false assumptions. Is this part of your upbringing?

When debating, you look past the meaning of a statement and look for fallacies. You're very methodic in your thinking and reasoning and there's certainly a time and place for all that.

I get the impression, and I may be wrong, that you consider anything that doesn't make enough money in the free market to sustain itself to be a completely superfluous and futuile project.
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What would 'busa have done?
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I would love to hear what Busa would have done
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I'd like to know how Busa would handle this situation.
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What are we to do?
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Old 01-12-2011, 07:06 PM   #38
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I'm not sure why this is an Asian/non-Asian thing. I'm saying it precisely BECAUSE it can be said for any kid/adult, regardless of race.
Sure. But in the terms of the United States, Asians have significantly higher math scores and college degrees than any other government recognized demographic (White, Hispanic, non-Hispanic White, black, Native American). It's not a racial thing. It's an issue of upbringing, of which Asian immigrants do this pretty much across the board.

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Really? How important is it that we drill into this?
It's important if one of your arguments why American parents don't spend enough time raising their kids is "they're working long hours". That's simply not true.

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But in this case, the losers may be kids who get Bs, no? Because anything other than having A's and being THE BEST is not enough for these parents. What happens to these kids that are really smart and great in schoo, but just not the BEST?
If you're not literally retarded, as long as you're trained well, you can easily get As in school. The current state of K12 education in the United States is bleak and it's not very hard for anybody with concerned/caring parents to score significantly higher than both the average and median.

Quote:
Sorry, neither you, nor I know the slightest thing about these girls.

They practice 3 hours a day? - What positive attribute does this describe?
Straight A's? - That makes them smart, I guess.
Their mother raised them to be polite and respectful of their elders? - In an interview? In private? Have you met these girls?
You seem to be making lots of assumptions.
Have you read the article?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy Chua
For example, my Western friends who consider themselves strict make their children practice their instruments 30 minutes every day. An hour at most. For a Chinese mother, the first hour is the easy part. It's hours two and three that get tough.
Quote:
Chinese parents can get away with things that Western parents can't. Once when I was young-maybe more than once-when I was extremely disrespectful to my mother, my father angrily called me "garbage" in our native Hokkien dialect. It worked really well. I felt terrible and deeply ashamed of what I had done. But it didn't damage my self-esteem or anything like that. I knew exactly how highly he thought of me. I didn't actually think I was worthless or feel like a piece of garbage.

As an adult, I once did the same thing to Sophia, calling her garbage in English when she acted extremely disrespectfully toward me.
Quote:
Not everything needs to be measured. Some things can be observed. Do your kids come to visit you often? Are they enthusiastic about the things going on in their lives? Are they social? Are they optimistic? Do they handle stress well?
Happiness is something extremely relative and many things can cause a person to be happy. That being said, a parent should be more concerned with the measurable well being of their children. Nigerians are the happiest people in the world according to a few studies, but that doesn't mean people in the United States are leaping to imitate the Nigerians or that a Nigerian wouldn't leap at a chance to come to America.

Quote:
Not necessarily. A parent may mean well, but they're often living in the past, dealing with their own issues and prejudices and they're often misinformed as much, if not more than their kids. Peers and strangers are more representative of people that kids will encounter throughout their adulthood and can provide a very important part of the growing up process. Naturally, it's up to a parent to guide this process and ensure it is relatively safe.
Socioeconomic status is something that is constant throughout any generation. And the means to elevate ones' position still haven't changed. I do agree it's important for parents to take into account the cultural delta between generations, but it's still not as important as doing well in school or teaching your children to respect authority.

Quote:
She may not want a carbon copy of herself, but she also doesn't appear to want independent thinking adults. It doesn't look like she's giving them lots of freedom or choices.
I would say most people are incapable of independent thought and every child can't think freely. We're talking about kids under the age 18, before they go to college. There is a reason why the justice system discriminates between adults and minors.

Quote:
What's more interesting is that, for someone who always insists on sticking to facts and numbers, you're make A LOT of assumptions. You are making wild assumptions about her wanting someone educated, talented, and connected enough to do this, that or the other. Even if she said what she wants explicitly, it is no indication of what she really wants, and what is much more obvious by looking at her actions.
I'm not making any wild assumptions. Wanting somebody educated and intelligent means good grades in school. Wanting somebody talented is symptomatic through her desire to force her kids to practice piano for 3 hours a day. She's writing about her actions. Her motivations are very clear. Again, perhaps you should reread the article:

Quote:
By contrast, the Chinese believe that the best way to protect their children is by preparing them for the future, letting them see what they're capable of, and arming them with skills, work habits and inner confidence that no one can ever take away.
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I've noticed that your value system is based a lot on things that can be measured and quantified. Someone's grades, or the number of hours they practice the violin says zero about personality, happiness and yes, even intelligence. I know lots of kids who have great grades, but horrible interaction skills, little common sense and a just a skewed view of the world.
It is pointless to analyze and do research on something that cannot be easily quantified to a standard. For example, it would useless to compare one work of art against another. It's impossible to do by any reasonably objective standard. Does that mean I think art is worthless? No. And does it really matter if a person has "horrible interaction skills, little common sense, and a just a skewed view of the world"? Again, values comparison is pointless when you're trying to measure things that are too hard to objectively quantify.

Quote:
You tear through economics and finance related threads impressively and with little emotion other than disgust and disdain for those who make false assumptions. Is this part of your upbringing?

When debating, you look past the meaning of a statement and look for fallacies. You're very methodic in your thinking and reasoning and there's certainly a time and place for all that.
This is a discussion forum. And the quality of a discussion is higher when people do not use logical fallacies, misleading arguments, and false assertions. It's that simple.

Quote:
I get the impression, and I may be wrong, that you consider anything that doesn't make enough money in the free market to sustain itself to be a completely superfluous and futuile project.
This must be a huge exaggeration. And no, it's not remotely true.

I think I've misrepresented my argument. I'm not saying that everybody should play piano and violin for three hours a day and get straight As in school. But there must be a much greater emphasis on academic achievement. The socioeconomic importance of a good education has never been higher. You can scoff at what the majority desires or approves of, but at the end of the day, everybody wants to ingratiate themselves into a community. Those who don't are called sociopaths.
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Old 01-12-2011, 07:32 PM   #39
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But there must be a much greater emphasis on academic achievement. The socioeconomic importance of a good education has never been higher.
As long as you aren't equating academic achievement with knowledge, OK.
"academic achievement" is a circle jerk for regurgitate what we give you and give us back the answers we tell you to give us.

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You can scoff at what the majority desires or approves of, but at the end of the day, everybody wants to ingratiate themselves into a community. Those who don't are called sociopaths.

You say sociopath like its a bad thing. Do people really want that, or have we be "nurtured" into believing that we are supposed to want that and if we don't we are broken/sick/evil.

If all people really want to do is "fit in", I could almost feel sorry for them...if they weren't such pathetic excuses for human beings.
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Old 01-12-2011, 11:45 PM   #40
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Fair enough. I'm only 22 and have basically zero experience in child rearing.
That is also something to remember in all this. Not every person raising a child has the characteristics to raise them in this manner, nor do they believe it is in the child's best interest. So, it is a live and let live situation. It works for her. Great. But, that doesn;t mean it is the right model for everybody or that one model is better than another.

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What is the "bleeped up situation" we are in? Why do people have to constantly paint our lives and experiences as part of a "bleeped up situation"? I daresay that you're relatively satisfied with your situation and community and that others across the country are too.
This is the question. We hear all the time about how the US is falling behind in education and how so many people don't want to work and just want things handed to them and how all this laissez faire parenting is "bad". Yet, this is not a "bleeped up situation". So which is it. If people are "relatively satisfied with their situation and community" than is their anything wrong with the "western" parenting that has been going on. Are these Chinese mothers really superior? Perhaps not.

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Originally Posted by rapier7 View Post
Sure, but it's a hell of a lot easier to standardize test scores and measurements of net worth than friends and happiness.
Easier perhaps, which is why people fall in to doing that. But, I never any any reasoned argument that test scores and net worth are an accurate way of measuring it.

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Originally Posted by rapier7 View Post
All those people are dead. The fact is children are blank slates. And external factors beyond their control will shape who they are and who they become. It is far better for their parents to determine who they will be than their peers or some stranger.
We disagree. Children are not "blank slates". If they were, then they would be only that of which they are programmed, and yet they are not. At least in most cases. If they were blank slates, we would not have the vast number of religions, philosophies, musical and artistic styles, and the list goes on. People have different abilities and talents. Those often are innate. I can see a 2d problem in 3d. I don't try to. I wasn't trained to. I just do. It is how my brain and my brain chemistry process certain types of information. That does not fall into the "blank slate" model. And the same is true for many people and what are often refferred to as natural talents, gifts, affinities, etc.

Is it really far better. What, for lack of a better word, qualifies these parents to make the "right decisions" better than some peer or stranger?

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You're in the nature camp? For me, short of a serious genetic disorder such as Down Syndrome, it's all about nurture. Gladwell's Outliers is a good proxy for my beliefs on this matter.
But, that doesn't hold up. Did Gladwell fail to mention that Bill Gates bought DOS from somebody else, and didn't actually write the code himself. So his 10,000 hours in front of a computer didn't really have much to do with that success, now did it.

If it was "all about nurture", why is the avg IQ 100. Given the strictly nurture view, one could systematically raise another person's IQ from 100 to 180 given enough nurture. Not likely to happen. Brain chemistry, how neurons fire, what is the resistance along sodium and calcium pathways in the brain is just as likely if not more likely to determine how someone's brain will operate than how many flash cards they are shown.

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There is a huge difference between a mental limitation and a physical one.
At least we almost agree about one thing. Yes, there is a huge difference. In most cases the mental limitation is far harder to overcome or workaround than the physical one.

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Originally Posted by rapier7 View Post
My particular view of "success" is shared by most people, whether they openly admit it or not.
And hey, that is great. Works for you. Awesome. Want to raise your kids and measure them by that. Go for it. More power to ya. But, that is your particular view. Other people have other views of success, and theirs are equally as valid as yours. That is the point.

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Originally Posted by rapier7 View Post
She doesn't want a carbon copy of who she is. Rather, she wants someone educated, talented, and connected enough to give them near-infinite upside, something akin to what she had. That doesn't necessarily mean she wants her children to become Yale law professors, or even a lawyer.
There is no such thing as infinite upside. And infinite upside to what? Her (and your) particular definition of success and therefore happiness and satisfaction in life? What is she writing on this "blank slate" if not exactly what she wants in the mold.

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Originally Posted by rapier7 View Post
Isn't that what's happening right now? The laissez faire parenting school certainly seems to have more practicing converts than the Chinese school. Somehow, I don't think that bodes well for the future, collectively and individually.
If this parenting is raising people who are relatively satisfied with their situation and community, what is wrong with that future.

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Originally Posted by rapier7 View Post
P.S: Joan Jett's song might be catchy, but come on, man.
It is the point. I am greatly concerned that so many people do care about their "good reputation". Being so concerned with what other people think. If there is a "problem", that is it. People are not willing to say "f**k off". This is who I am, this is what i am. You don't like. Mom & Dad don't like it. So&so don't like it. Ask me if I give a sh!t. It is my life and I will live it how I wish. If I f**k it up, that is on me. But, it will be my call because its my life. Accept me for who I am or don't. Either way is OK by me. But, I am not going to be anything else than who I am and who I choose to be. Like it or not.

If that makes me a sociopath, so be it. I will wear that badge with honor.
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