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Gun Talk
Are you a gun fanatic as well? If so, you'll want to talk to other owners about what you own in this forum.

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Old 01-18-2012, 07:45 AM   #381
Serbonze
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Opinion time! Does the ejection angle chart hold any value?




I saw this posted on another forum, followed by arguments for (ejection should always be in the blue) and against (as long as it's not malfunctioning, it's fine) it. I thought that this was an interesting debate. My M&P, which I understand is known to be over-gassed, ejects consistantly at around 1:30-2:00 and has never malfunctioned using the H buffer and spring. So why mess with something that is working? On the flip side, will it induce premature wear on the internals, and could that wear be prevented by going to a heavier (ST-2 or even H2) buffer and something like the Sprinco Blue buffer spring?
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Old 01-18-2012, 08:08 AM   #382
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Opinion time! Does the ejection angle chart hold any value?



I saw this posted on another forum, followed by arguments for (ejection should always be in the blue) and against (as long as it's not malfunctioning, it's fine) it. I thought that this was an interesting debate. My M&P, which I understand is known to be over-gassed, ejects consistantly at around 1:30-2:00 and has never malfunctioned using the H buffer and spring. So why mess with something that is working? On the flip side, will it induce premature wear on the internals, and could that wear be prevented by going to a heavier (ST-2 or even H2) buffer and something like the Sprinco Blue buffer spring?
My M&P also ejects around 2 as well....
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Old 01-18-2012, 10:18 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by Serbonze View Post
Opinion time! Does the ejection angle chart hold any value?




I saw this posted on another forum, followed by arguments for (ejection should always be in the blue) and against (as long as it's not malfunctioning, it's fine) it. I thought that this was an interesting debate. My M&P, which I understand is known to be over-gassed, ejects consistantly at around 1:30-2:00 and has never malfunctioned using the H buffer and spring. So why mess with something that is working? On the flip side, will it induce premature wear on the internals, and could that wear be prevented by going to a heavier (ST-2 or even H2) buffer and something like the Sprinco Blue buffer spring?
My thoughts are that it's subjectively right, but universally wrong. What I mean is, if you are maintaining a constant use pattern throughout your testing and diagnostic, and then maintain that throughout use, that chart may be true. However, if you use different types of ammunition, it's a different story. Case in point- XM193 and XM855 are very high pressure rounds. They're loaded to full military 5.56mm spec. These will always cause your gun to run "faster" than standard ammunition. On the other hand, running Wolf WPA or another Soviet Bloc steel case cartridge will cause a slower operation due to them being underpowered. Standard .223 target and hunting ammo would be in the lower-middle range, and duty-grade .223 and high performance match .223 and 5.56mm will be in the upper-middle range of pressure and speed. If you are ejecting at 2:00 with M193, chances are you will not be with other types of ammo. I would only start to use that chart for diagnostics if the angles were very extreme, like at 12:30-1:00, or at the 4:30-5:00 range.
Thing is, the ejection angle is heavily based on the way the brass bounces off the shell deflector. In order to explain that whole process, I think we'd have to inject some Dr. Ian Malcolm/Jurassic Park style Chaos Theory into the mix. Realistically, the range where brass could be thrown is only from about 1:00-5:00.
The best way to determine whether you need to do something is if you have problems with cycling. I'd rather have a gun slightly over-gassed than under. Yes, over-gassing does cause extra wear, but nothing that is going to screw with your normal service intervals anyways. You still need to change out your springs and wear components at proper intervals.
If you have no problems cycling, look at the brass. Particularly, look at the case rim. If you see extractor claw damage to the case rim, you have heavy over-gassing. My 7.5" has this issue, but it's significantly less than what it used to be. I have only about 1000rds through it, but it's still been very reliable. I run it with a Sprinco red spring with an H3 buffer. Ideally, I should be using a VLTOR A5 w/ the heaviest H4 - 6.8oz buffer. An SBR being over-gassed is more detrimental than a 16" being over-gassed, as the pressures are much higher.

So long story short- if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Wait to start having problems, or damage to brass, before you try to fix anything.

As for the spring, I'd recommend you using Tactical Springs LLC/Sprinco RED extra-power recoil spring, as opposed to the standard power blue that you mentioned. It's a reliability enhancement, and they're excellent springs.
I would also recommend buying their Reliability Kit, which includes the extra-power 5-coil extractor spring. This stuff just serves to enhance the reliability overall.
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Old 01-18-2012, 10:18 AM   #384
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^man makes good points, as always. Also liked the Ian malcom reference

Interesting...my colt ejects in the blue, but I've never noticed where my M&P ejects. I'll keep an eye on that next time I got shooting.
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Old 01-18-2012, 10:36 AM   #385
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I think I'm going to end up selling the M&P anyway, so tinkering with the buffer spring/buffer is just throwing money away. If I do decide to keep it, then I can mess with it. I just thought that it would be an interesting discussion.

To keep the discussion going, I will add that all I shoot is the XM193 with all of the ARs. It's easy (and cheap) to buy in bulk and I've never had any issues with it. So with the M&P, it's a combination of being overgassed and high pressure rounds.

I was doing some initial research on the buffer/spring combination to use for my 11.5" upper, and the consenus seemed to be an H2 Buffer with a Blue spring. I just went back and looked through the thread that you made, and it looks like you went with the H2 and a Red Spring for your 11.5" build. What made you decide on the Red over the Blue?
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Old 01-18-2012, 10:56 AM   #386
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Red is the Extra Power. That's the one that was recommended to me by an AR expert I know, Sully Sullivan. He owns SLR15 Rifles/The Defensive Edge here in MN. It's stronger and has higher spring tension. I have been very happy with it. You can go with an H2, or the ST-T2 buffer. Both work exceptionally well. I have no issues with timing with that setup.

Edit: I should also add that as you add more mass in the buffer, you start to cause the recoil spring to work harder. You need a heavier recoil spring to more efficiently propel the buffer back forward at the correct speed and with the necessary amount of force.
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Old 01-18-2012, 11:22 AM   #387
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My M&P also ejects around 2 as well....
interesting. Mine runs in the Perfect area, however it is the piston driven PSX version which would; I assume, also once again support that the theory the DI versions are overgassed.

I'd also agree with Reedo, over is much better than under.
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Old 01-18-2012, 01:28 PM   #388
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interesting. Mine runs in the Perfect area, however it is the piston driven PSX version which would; I assume, also once again support that the theory the DI versions are overgassed.

I'd also agree with Reedo, over is much better than under.
Chances are that your rifle is over-gassed too, it's just not as demonstrable of a factor since your gas block regulates it off. Piston systems inherently work slower than similarly-designed DI systems, so the increase in mass of the op rod and the friction and weight of the piston are likely alleviating some of the pressure. Such is why piston gas systems have been shown to be more reliable with suppressors than conventional DI setups (reliable as in working without timing issues. Other issues related to gas systems are still present). Although, an adjustable gas block for a DI setup will level the playing field.
Over-gassing may be the result of the gas port diameter in the barrels. If the gas port is too big, that could cause over-gassing. I am not sure what barrels you guys are running, but I believe they should be the T/C barrels.
You'd have to use a pin gauge to figure it out, but since your rifles are working fine, it's not a big deal.
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Old 01-18-2012, 03:29 PM   #389
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Chances are that your rifle is over-gassed too, it's just not as demonstrable of a factor since your gas block regulates it off. Piston systems inherently work slower than similarly-designed DI systems, so the increase in mass of the op rod and the friction and weight of the piston are likely alleviating some of the pressure. Such is why piston gas systems have been shown to be more reliable with suppressors than conventional DI setups (reliable as in working without timing issues. Other issues related to gas systems are still present). Although, an adjustable gas block for a DI setup will level the playing field.
Over-gassing may be the result of the gas port diameter in the barrels. If the gas port is too big, that could cause over-gassing. I am not sure what barrels you guys are running, but I believe they should be the T/C barrels.
You'd have to use a pin gauge to figure it out, but since your rifles are working fine, it's not a big deal.
You are correct. I was simply thinking about it wrong. In my brain I was thinking the operating rod probably absorbs most over the overgassing symptoms. This of course equated to me saying mine was not overgassed because it doesn't have the same symptoms. DURRRRRRRR on my part.
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Old 01-22-2012, 06:58 AM   #390
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I totally scratched my AR build after seeing how much it would be compared to a spec'd rifle from a manufacturer. I'm going to go with the Larue Predatar 16" 5.56. My custom build put me a few hundred over the Larue, so it was a no brainer to go with the LT. Wait is around 2-3 months, so it should arrive right when I get back from deployment. Here is some eye candy












What do you guys think of this FDE job? I think it looks pretty sick and was thinking about going this route when I get it.



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Old 01-22-2012, 07:24 AM   #391
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^ The FDE coating looks sick! I have seen some local company that will do it for $200!
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Old 01-22-2012, 01:29 PM   #392
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Update on the ejection discussion...

I went to the range this morning with a ST-2 buffer and Sprinco Blue Buffer spring that I borrowed from a friend. This is my un-scientific experiment. I started and stopped with the XM193 because that is what I shoot the most, and I wanted to use it as a baseline.

I loaded two magazines with the below combinations.
5 rounds XM193
5 rounds Federal .223 (Walmart Bulk Pack stuff)
5 rounds Remington UMC .223
5 rounds Tula .223
5 rounds XM193

The first test used the ST-2 Buffer and the standard buffer spring.
1:30 XM193
2:00 Federal
2:00 UMC
2:30 Tula
1:30 XM193

The second test used the ST-2 Buffer and the blue buffer spring.
2:00 XM193
2:30 Federal
2:30 UMC
4:00 Tula
2:00 XM193

What I learned....
The blue spring helped a bit. I wouldn't mind trying a red spring and an H2 buffer just to see what happens.
Tula feels like shooting a .22 compared to the XM193.
I was using my electronic ear pro, so I could hear some old timers on the benches behind me complaining that the Tula shells were hitting them.
I didn't realize just how hot of a round XM193 is until I did a head to head comparison.

I definitely understand the rifles are working perfectly fine. There are no malfunctions with any of the ammo that I feed them, I'm just having fun learning how the different combinations work with first hand experience instead of just reading about them.
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Old 01-22-2012, 01:37 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by M3_POWER View Post
I totally scratched my AR build after seeing how much it would be compared to a spec'd rifle from a manufacturer. I'm going to go with the Larue Predatar 16" 5.56. My custom build put me a few hundred over the Larue, so it was a no brainer to go with the LT. Wait is around 2-3 months, so it should arrive right when I get back from deployment. Here is some eye candy












What do you guys think of this FDE job? I think it looks pretty sick and was thinking about going this route when I get it.



Holy shit that coating looks awesome; do want!
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Old 01-22-2012, 01:52 PM   #394
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I totally scratched my AR build after seeing how much it would be compared to a spec'd rifle from a manufacturer. I'm going to go with the Larue Predatar 16" 5.56. My custom build put me a few hundred over the Larue, so it was a no brainer to go with the LT. Wait is around 2-3 months, so it should arrive right when I get back from deployment. Here is some eye candy


Are you buying locally, or direct from LaRue? If direct, did you get the MIL discount?
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Old 01-22-2012, 04:08 PM   #395
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Are you buying locally, or direct from LaRue? If direct, did you get the MIL discount?
Direct. I hope they offer Mil/LEO discount on the rifle, but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't.
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Old 01-22-2012, 06:51 PM   #396
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Direct. I hope they offer Mil/LEO discount on the rifle, but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't.
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Old 01-23-2012, 12:46 PM   #397
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that FDE finish is a cut above any of the one's I've seen.
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Old 01-24-2012, 12:35 AM   #398
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that FDE finish is a cut above any of the one's I've seen.
The color on that rifle is burnt bronze. They do different shades as well. $215 is a great deal for the lower, upper and rail.

http://www.wwgunsinc.com/index.cfm
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Old 02-22-2012, 07:26 AM   #399
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I thought I would bump the thread and ask a question. What kind of pricing are you all finding on 5.56/223? I ordered 1k rounds of XM193 from Palmetto State Armory last night. It was the best price I could find on brass cased ammo. It came out to $314 shipped to the house.
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Old 02-22-2012, 08:41 AM   #400
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I thought I would bump the thread and ask a question. What kind of pricing are you all finding on 5.56/223? I ordered 1k rounds of XM193 from Palmetto State Armory last night. It was the best price I could find on brass cased ammo. It came out to $314 shipped to the house.
Brownells has it for $285 shipped for 1000rds lake city... Slickguns.com has a link to the deal
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