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Gun Talk
Are you a gun fanatic as well? If so, you'll want to talk to other owners about what you own in this forum.

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Old 04-24-2012, 04:59 PM   #521
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Originally Posted by Reedo302 View Post
It will drop free from a vertical position, but if I start tilting the rifle upward, it can cause problems. My USGI, Lancer L5 and TangoDown ARC mags all drop free from a more extreme inclined angle than the PMAGs. Minor thing, but I've had to modify my manual of arms slightly to accommodate the PMAGs.
Ever think of possibly just taking some material off the mags themselves?
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Old 04-24-2012, 05:51 PM   #522
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...
I've never dealt with MSTN, but I know they have a pretty positive reputation. All accounts that I've read point to them being a very high quality builder.

In terms of what you want to build/buy, it's really up to you. I would rather have the rail with the switchblock cutout, but that's just personal preference since I am a fan of having the max amount of real estate on a handguard/railed forend. If you went with the MSTN build, you'd still be going with a high quality setup.

As far as the switchblock, it's a very good piece of kit. Everyone I've talked to has said that it's practically a necessity for running a can with an SBR. From an armoring standpoint, you can easily overgas an SBR with a suppressor, and that can affect reliability. It can also cause excess wear. Noveske's switchblock is an ideal option to alleviate this issue. It's a very good design, and has been the basis for several other gas blocks created. LaRue's switchable gas block was based on the Noveske Switchblock and created with their assistance, IIRC.

BCM is a great company, but when it comes to suppressor technology, Noveske is one of the chief innovators and they know their stuff. The mission drives the gear, and the best option on the table is Noveske, IMO. That does not mean you can't buy a BCM lower for the rifle if you want BCM components somewhere on the rifle.

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Originally Posted by speedcrazy1532 View Post
Ever think of possibly just taking some material off the mags themselves?
I have, but I suspect that the bigger issue is the with the surface friction. The surface of the PMAG is much more rough than that of an aluminum or steel USGI mag, as well as the other polymer options. I'm not saying it makes the Magpuls junk, but it's a minor annoyance for me. Everything else about the windowed PMAG makes it my favorite magazine. I might try using a super fine grit sandpaper and wetsanding the top of the mag bodies...see if that does anything.
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:01 PM   #523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reedo302 View Post
I've never dealt with MSTN, but I know they have a pretty positive reputation. All accounts that I've read point to them being a very high quality builder.

In terms of what you want to build/buy, it's really up to you. I would rather have the rail with the switchblock cutout, but that's just personal preference since I am a fan of having the max amount of real estate on a handguard/railed forend. If you went with the MSTN build, you'd still be going with a high quality setup.

As far as the switchblock, it's a very good piece of kit. Everyone I've talked to has said that it's practically a necessity for running a can with an SBR. From an armoring standpoint, you can easily overgas an SBR with a suppressor, and that can affect reliability. It can also cause excess wear. Noveske's switchblock is an ideal option to alleviate this issue. It's a very good design, and has been the basis for several other gas blocks created. LaRue's switchable gas block was based on the Noveske Switchblock and created with their assistance, IIRC.

BCM is a great company, but when it comes to suppressor technology, Noveske is one of the chief innovators and they know their stuff. The mission drives the gear, and the best option on the table is Noveske, IMO. That does not mean you can't buy a BCM lower for the rifle if you want BCM components somewhere on the rifle.


I have, but I suspect that the bigger issue is the with the surface friction. The surface of the PMAG is much more rough than that of an aluminum or steel USGI mag, as well as the other polymer options. I'm not saying it makes the Magpuls junk, but it's a minor annoyance for me. Everything else about the windowed PMAG makes it my favorite magazine.

That's what I was leaning towards. Noveske was my first choice and I really do like their rail system. If MSTN had one built up with the noveske rail I might consider it more and decide if the extra cost is worth it. But I think the one from Noveske directly will be my best option. I'll probably build a 14.5" BCM beater in the future.
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:10 PM   #524
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You need a PUG.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...acksaw-pug-15/
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:25 PM   #525
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I do like that thing haha. I need quite a few things you own.
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Old 04-27-2012, 09:19 AM   #526
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I'm looking for a larger Safety Selector. Maybe I just have a small thumb, but when performing drills I seem to be consistently searching for the safety so I would like something with a bit more meat on it. Any suggestions?

Never mind, I spoke with Roger from BAD today. Really, really nice guy. He answered all of my questions.
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Old 04-27-2012, 11:22 PM   #527
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I'm looking at getting a BAD-ASS also. I've been running milspec forever, and wondering if it would be worth looking at. Some of the earlier models had reliability issues with the detent and spring not engaging correctly, and I haven't heard if they've managed to resolve that. There are several accounts over on Lightfighter of people complaining about it. I heard something about BAD fixing the issue, and I'm wondering if the new BAD-ASS-SA is the new design..
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Old 04-28-2012, 07:44 AM   #528
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I'm looking at getting a BAD-ASS also. I've been running milspec forever, and wondering if it would be worth looking at. Some of the earlier models had reliability issues with the detent and spring not engaging correctly, and I haven't heard if they've managed to resolve that. There are several accounts over on Lightfighter of people complaining about it. I heard something about BAD fixing the issue, and I'm wondering if the new BAD-ASS-SA is the new design..
I think you may mean the BAD-CASS-SA? The selectors are dovetailed, so they don't rely on just the screw to hold them on. I did read that some people felt that they "feel" more secure, and give greater positive feedback when moving the selector.
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Old 04-28-2012, 01:12 PM   #529
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That's it
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Old 04-29-2012, 01:01 PM   #530
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Is california the only state that requires a bullet button?

Reedo, it looks like you have one in your sig.
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Old 04-29-2012, 06:43 PM   #531
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Nope, that's a milspec mag release. I would never voluntarily live in a socialist state that hates guns.

I believe Cali is the only state that requires bullet buttons.
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Old 04-30-2012, 04:34 PM   #532
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So I'll be looking for an M4 upper soon to slap on a lower I'm building. I'm sure its been discussed before but I decided to ask in here to see if anyone has any suggestions on what to look for. I'm going to be getting something at least 16" for my first build, and I would like to find something complete with BCG as I hear uppers can get tricky to build. I'd like to keep it within a $400-700 budget, unless you guys think I should save for something better. Some brands I've been hearing good things about are DD, RRA, and BCM but I'm not limited to those brands if you have other suggestions. Where should I begin to look to find the best options for me, I want to get the best bang for my buck. Oh and I'd like it to have some sort of a quad rail already installed.

Thanks for the help.

P.S. As stated on my location, I don't live in the communist state of California so no need to worry about it being Cali-approved if there are any such restrictions on uppers in Cali.

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Old 04-30-2012, 05:14 PM   #533
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chriscf17 View Post
So I'll be looking for an M4 upper soon to slap on a lower I'm building. I'm sure its been discussed before but I decided to ask in here to see if anyone has any suggestions on what to look for. I'm going to be getting something at least 16" for my first build, and I would like to find something complete with BCG as I hear uppers can get tricky to build. I'd like to keep it within a $400-700 budget, unless you guys think I should save for something better. Some brands I've been hearing good things about are DD, RRA, and BCM but I'm not limited to those brands if you have other suggestions. Where should I begin to look to find the best options for me, I want to get the best bang for my buck. Oh and I'd like it to have some sort of a quad rail already installed.

Thanks for the help.

P.S. As stated on my location, I don't live in the communist state of California so no need to worry about it being Cali-approved if there are any such restrictions on uppers in Cali.
I take it this is just going to be a range toy/paper puncher?

I like BCM a lot, also have had good experiences with spikes. DD makes some great stuff too. Finding a complete upper in that range from DD/BCM might be a little difficult. I would keep my eyes open for deals that pop up here:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/f_7/159_A..._Receiver.html

Something like this would work well too:
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.as...er&groupid=586
($699)


($499)
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.as...er&groupid=586

($699) but does not have CH or BCG(+$200)
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-1...lw%20ddox9.htm

also take a look at Palmetto state armory will be closer to the $400-600 range
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...te-uppers.html
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Old 04-30-2012, 06:07 PM   #534
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The Spikes upper with the MOE stock is a good entry level option. I think for the average person, it's a decent option.

My vote is for BCM, as they're a high quality manufacturer and they know what they're doing. You can get exactly what you want from them.

A couple of thoughts:
- Chrome hammer forged barrels like the BCM BFH and DD CHF are going to command a premium cost. They're worth the money and are for more robust than conventional cut rifled barrels. However, about 80-90% of shooters have no need for a CHF barrel because they will not shoot their rifles enough to necessitate needing a barrel with a 35k-45k round lifespan. Conventional barrels will last 10k-15k rounds, which most people never shoot in the life of their rifles. If you are trying to save money, skip the CHF barrel.

-Buying a basic rifle upper with conventional handguards and a front sight post is a good way to save some money up front, and then add onto later. However, make sure that you are buying a quality upper. You should be buying an upper with M4 feedramps, and ensure that the front sight base is F-marked.

-BCGs are important. Make sure it's a full milspec BCG. Some companies sell "semi-auto" BCGs and "full-auto" BCGs. A "full-auto" BCG is what was originally intended to be run in an AR, and it is NOT an NFA item in and of itself. Make sure it's a "full-auto" bolt carrier group.

-Rail capabilities and features depend on the company and rail configuration. You will get out of your rail what you put into it. Each manufacturer has advantages and disadvantages. More expensive rails like those from Daniel Defense, LaRue, PRI and KAC are incredibly strong, have lots of features, and they're high quality. If you want to save money, consider looking into Troy, APEX, YHM/Yankee Hill and Midwest Industries. They have different features and are generally decent quality, though not to the level of guaranteed strength and durability of the higher-end rails. They're much less expensive. Again, do you need a $350 rail? Or can you live with a $250 rail?

I think the options Adam showed are good. The Spikes option is the best middle-tier option, while the BCM midlength upper w/ DD OmegaX 9.0 is the best top-tier option. Expect to wait a while though.
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Old 04-30-2012, 07:35 PM   #535
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Reedo or anybody that has experience with both, how much more accurate is a 16" barrel vs an 18" barrel for an spr application. I am thinking about making my current AR a dedicated bench gun really and building my SBR into my workhorse and training class gun. local range is only 200 yards. But my current rifle has a 16.1" Noveske SS Recon Barrel. Currently outfitted with a Nikon M223 3-12x and LaRue/Harris bipod. It currently has a UBR stock on it which I'm considering swapping out and putting a PRS stock on it. Most SPR setups usually always run 18" barrels. I can't nearly shoot yet with the accuracy my gun is capable of but hoping to get closer throughout the year. Am I going to regret not setting it up with an 18" barrel?

Placing an order this week for the following parts for my SBR build, then I'll just need the noveske upper, LPK and the paperwork.
Magpul STR Stock w/ Enhanced buttpad and QD Sling attachment
ASAP plate
MIAD Grip
BAD Lever
Handstop
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Old 04-30-2012, 09:58 PM   #536
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Well, it really depends on the range you are shooting at, and the ammunition you're using. I shoot my SPR with 77gr SMK handloads using Lake City brass, CCI primers, and Alliant RE15 powder. It is a very close approximation of the Mk262 Mod 1 load. This is one of the ideal loads for long range SPR use. Anything ranging from 75gr-80gr is what is recommended for making the long range SPR shots at over 800yds.
Based on ballistics, and using the Baltimore area with an altitude of ~33ft ASL, these rounds wouldbe going trans-sonic at 850yds from my 18" barrel. Trans-sonic is where the bullet crosses the threshold from supersonic to subsonic, and the ballistics take a nosedive. If I were to use a 16" barrel, I'd be looking at a drop of 70-100fps muzzle velocity. Enter that into the computer with worst case scenario of 100fps lost, and the same load would be going trans-sonic at 810yds. Now, up until the trans-sonic threshold, the rounds are very similar in bullet trajectory with very similar adjustments. After that, you have some differences.
18" Barrel 2750fps:
900yds - 351" bullet drop @ 1063fps
1000yds - 488" bullet drop @ 994fps

16" Barrel 2650fps:
900yds - 384" drop @ 1034fps
1000yds - 532" drop @ 971fps

Basically, If you want to push out past 800yds, an 18" barrel is advantageous for the flatter trajectory and less elevation correction needed. Notice that there is very little velocity difference, however. If you can make the elevation adjustments, the difference is inconsequential.
So basically, I really see no point of difference between the two if you have the right equipment. The Nikon M223 is not a 1000yd scope, nor is it a usable 800yd scope due to the lack of adjustment. So, with your current setup, getting an 18" barrel would really make no sense. If you were going to be building a rifle that you wanted to punch out to 1000yds regularly with, it might be worth it for the extra little boost of velocity, but only marginally since the overall adjustment difference between the two at 1000yds is around 13.6mils (46.7 MOA) vs 14.8mils (50.8 MOA) of up elevation adjustment. 1.2mils difference at 1000yds is a lot at 1000yds, but not much on a scope that has that level of elevation travel.

...but then and again, I'm building a DMR upper with a 16" barrel, and I'm eying up a Noveske barrel. So yeah, you definitely need an 18" barrel. I'll PM you the address to where you can send that 16" barrel...
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:26 PM   #537
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Well, it really depends on the range you are shooting at, and the ammunition you're using. I shoot my SPR with 77gr SMK handloads using Lake City brass, CCI primers, and Alliant RE15 powder. It is a very close approximation of the Mk262 Mod 1 load. This is one of the ideal loads for long range SPR use. Anything ranging from 75gr-80gr is what is recommended for making the long range SPR shots at over 800yds.
Based on ballistics, and using the Baltimore area with an altitude of ~33ft ASL, these rounds wouldbe going trans-sonic at 850yds from my 18" barrel. Trans-sonic is where the bullet crosses the threshold from supersonic to subsonic, and the ballistics take a nosedive. If I were to use a 16" barrel, I'd be looking at a drop of 70-100fps muzzle velocity. Enter that into the computer with worst case scenario of 100fps lost, and the same load would be going trans-sonic at 810yds. Now, up until the trans-sonic threshold, the rounds are very similar in bullet trajectory with very similar adjustments. After that, you have some differences.
18" Barrel 2750fps:
900yds - 351" bullet drop @ 1063fps
1000yds - 488" bullet drop @ 994fps

16" Barrel 2650fps:
900yds - 384" drop @ 1034fps
1000yds - 532" drop @ 971fps

Basically, If you want to push out past 800yds, an 18" barrel is advantageous for the flatter trajectory and less elevation correction needed. Notice that there is very little velocity difference, however. If you can make the elevation adjustments, the difference is inconsequential.
So basically, I really see no point of difference between the two if you have the right equipment. The Nikon M223 is not a 1000yd scope, nor is it a usable 800yd scope due to the lack of adjustment. So, with your current setup, getting an 18" barrel would really make no sense. If you were going to be building a rifle that you wanted to punch out to 1000yds regularly with, it might be worth it for the extra little boost of velocity, but only marginally since the overall adjustment difference between the two at 1000yds is around 13.6mils (46.7 MOA) vs 14.8mils (50.8 MOA) of up elevation adjustment. 1.2mils difference at 1000yds is a lot at 1000yds, but not much on a scope that has that level of elevation travel.

...but then and again, I'm building a DMR upper with a 16" barrel, and I'm eying up a Noveske barrel. So yeah, you definitely need an 18" barrel. I'll PM you the address to where you can send that 16" barrel...
Hmm, clearly I was mis-informed, I thought a 5.56 reaches it's maximum velocity between 12 and 14 inches down the barrel and that the additional length ws simply to stabilize the bullet as much as possible.
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:00 PM   #538
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Powder burn and max velocity are two different components. Not all powders burn at the same rate. Some burn faster, some burn slower. M193 and M855 ammunition is loaded with very fast burning powder. Precision loads like the Mk262 have a powder mixture that burns at a slightly slower rate, but there is less powder to burn. Most of the powder will burn up at ~14-16" (ammo dependent, and ballpark estimate), but there is still pressure behind the bullet from the expansion of the gas. This will continue to increase the velocity of the bullet as projectile builds momentum and the gas expands. Polygonal rifled barrels like the Noveske are known to "seal" the projectile inside the bore better than conventional rifling, and this increases the pressure behind the projectile.

Not only that, but if you just set up behind a chronometer, you can watch the velocities drop as you reduce barrel length. Crane NSWC developed the Mk12 SPR, and they determined that 18" was the optimal barrel length for a precision AR. Yes, with a 5.56 there is eventually a law of diminishing returns, but that lands beyond of the 16-20" barrel range. 18" was determined to be enough for a complete powder burn and good stabilization, with enough velocity for a long range shot.

Check out this chrono data from Arfcom. You'll see that there are some deviations between 16" and 20", and sometimes there are not. However, note that you see a consistent MV drop of 35-50fps/inch when you drop below 16". Again, much of this is a function of the type of powder, and when you get out into the field, you need to take into account ambient temperature, humidity, and other variables. This is why snipers in the mountains of Trashcanistan like to pull their ammunition out and lay it out in the sun- heating it up can give an incremental increase in velocity and pressure, which produces a slightly flatter trajectory and a trans-sonic threshold at a greater distance. It's a trick that's been in use for decades. The real world effects are contentious, but it has been verified to increase velocity and pressure, however slight the increase is.
http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=213

One thing to consider is that long range precision 5.56 ammo is packed pretty heavy with powder. Mk262 and similar loads are usually right at the pressure threshold between safe and overpressure. When you have higher powder content, you will have longer burn times.

Unless you're shooting super high velocity lightweight varmint loads packed to the throat with powder, anything over 20" of barrel length for .223/5.56 is unnecessary. Really, I would say that anything over 18" is unnecessary, but that's me.
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Last edited by Reedo302; 04-30-2012 at 11:07 PM.
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Old 05-01-2012, 11:01 AM   #539
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Thanks for the write up. I doubt I will ever be shooting my ar much past 200-300 yards since thats whats available to me plus I know my scope is lower end and wouldn't be much help real far out.

Picked up some 77gr match grade black hills ammo, now just time to learn how to shoot well haha
If you want to buy a switch blocked 16" noveske and swap that works haha

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Old 05-01-2012, 12:23 PM   #540
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I take it this is just going to be a range toy/paper puncher?

I like BCM a lot, also have had good experiences with spikes. DD makes some great stuff too. Finding a complete upper in that range from DD/BCM might be a little difficult. I would keep my eyes open for deals that pop up here:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/f_7/159_A..._Receiver.html

Something like this would work well too:
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.as...er&groupid=586
($699)


($499)
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.as...er&groupid=586

($699) but does not have CH or BCG(+$200)
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-1...lw%20ddox9.htm

also take a look at Palmetto state armory will be closer to the $400-600 range
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...te-uppers.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reedo302 View Post
The Spikes upper with the MOE stock is a good entry level option. I think for the average person, it's a decent option.

My vote is for BCM, as they're a high quality manufacturer and they know what they're doing. You can get exactly what you want from them.

A couple of thoughts:
- Chrome hammer forged barrels like the BCM BFH and DD CHF are going to command a premium cost. They're worth the money and are for more robust than conventional cut rifled barrels. However, about 80-90% of shooters have no need for a CHF barrel because they will not shoot their rifles enough to necessitate needing a barrel with a 35k-45k round lifespan. Conventional barrels will last 10k-15k rounds, which most people never shoot in the life of their rifles. If you are trying to save money, skip the CHF barrel.

-Buying a basic rifle upper with conventional handguards and a front sight post is a good way to save some money up front, and then add onto later. However, make sure that you are buying a quality upper. You should be buying an upper with M4 feedramps, and ensure that the front sight base is F-marked.

-BCGs are important. Make sure it's a full milspec BCG. Some companies sell "semi-auto" BCGs and "full-auto" BCGs. A "full-auto" BCG is what was originally intended to be run in an AR, and it is NOT an NFA item in and of itself. Make sure it's a "full-auto" bolt carrier group.

-Rail capabilities and features depend on the company and rail configuration. You will get out of your rail what you put into it. Each manufacturer has advantages and disadvantages. More expensive rails like those from Daniel Defense, LaRue, PRI and KAC are incredibly strong, have lots of features, and they're high quality. If you want to save money, consider looking into Troy, APEX, YHM/Yankee Hill and Midwest Industries. They have different features and are generally decent quality, though not to the level of guaranteed strength and durability of the higher-end rails. They're much less expensive. Again, do you need a $350 rail? Or can you live with a $250 rail?

I think the options Adam showed are good. The Spikes option is the best middle-tier option, while the BCM midlength upper w/ DD OmegaX 9.0 is the best top-tier option. Expect to wait a while though.
Thanks for the write-ups guys. And Adam you are correct, will be used primarily as a Range/Paper-puncher gun. I'll look around at the options you guys suggested to see what I like best and what best fits my budget!

Reedo, say I were to pick up one of the spikes uppers, say this one for example. Are the BCG and CH good to go as far as milspec? Or should I look into other BCG's.

Thanks again.

Last edited by chriscf17; 05-01-2012 at 12:29 PM.
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